The cordless power tool industry is in the middle of another leap forward in battery technology, but not every brand is keeping pace with the latest advancements.
For example, Dewalt just announced a new tabless cell battery, and we expect to see a new Milwaukee M18 battery featuring similar technologies. Both launched pouch cell batteries. Flex has a range of pouch cell batteries. Ryobi has a tabless battery on the way, and Ridgid stands out as the only brand to announce a 5-cell tabless battery pack. Meanwhile, Makita’s best 18V battery launched around 10 years ago.
There’s been a lot of activity, with more sure to come, and it seemed like a good idea to put together a quick summary of what major cordless power tool brands have been doing with respect to battery tech.
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A Quick Primer on Tabless Batteries
You’re going to see the phrase “tabless” a lot in this post. “Tabless” refers to how the relatively newly-developed and highest-performing rechargeable Li-ion battery cells have a new electrode design that departs from more traditional “tabbed” designs.
Bosch’s graphics help to make the concept a bit easier to grasp.
The new approach creates more parallel electrical current pathways, which allows for lower internal resistance, cooler operation, and greater power delivery.
As depicted in this chart from Bosch, tabless batteries have the potential for broad and measurable benefits, even as drop-in replacements for existing batteries. We expect to see new tool technologies that are able to leverage the higher power delivery capabilities of tabless battery cells.
If multiple brands’ power and performance claims prove to be accurate, tabless batteries can in many cases be treated as instant upgrades.
Leading Cordless Power Tool Brands
Bosch – Bosch announced a tabless 18V 8Ah battery in Europe, although they have not yet made any announcements about USA availability.
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Dewalt – Dewalt recently revamped their 20V Max XR line of batteries, which features 2 sizes of pouch-cell batteries and a new tabless 8Ah battery.
Makita – Makita launched a tabless XGT battery that is advertised as delivering performance benefits for a wide range of tools.
Milwaukee – Milwaukee M18 FORGE batteries feature pouch cell technology, and we expect a higher capacity tabless-based 12Ah battery to be announced later this month.
Ridgid – Ridgid announced a tabless 18V 4Ah battery, which is expected to be available later this year. Interestingly, Ridgid’s new tabless battery is compact, whereas most brands are focusing on higher capacity batteries, such as 8Ah.
Ryobi – Ryobi announced new tabless 18V batteries earlier this year, and they’re due to be released this summer. However, Ryobi has yet to show off any tools that look capable of leveraging the higher power capabilities of this battery tech.
Lagging PRO Cordless Power Tool Brands
Festool – Some of Festool’s cordless power tools don’t fit the full range of their 18V batteries, and so it’s not too surprising that they haven’t moved to higher capacity batteries.
Flex – Flex was one of the first cordless power tool brands to embrace pouch cell technology, but it remains unclear whether they will seek to join competitors in offering batteries built with tabless cells.
Hercules – Harbor Freight has made impressive strides in the past few years, but it’s uncertain if the bargain retailer’s Hercules line of cordless power tools would even benefit from tabless batteries.
Hilti – Hilti Nuron tools could certainly benefit from the increased power-to-weight ratio of tabless battery cells, but the company has not shown any signs they’re interested in keeping pace with industry leaders.
Makita – While Makita was one of the first brands to launch a battery pack with tabless cells, their 18V cordless power tool line did not received the same upgrades. Makita skipped a couple of generations of battery tech advancements, and it’s looking like their 18V line will sit out on tabless cells too.
Metabo – Metabo has been at the front of next-gen cordless power tool battery tech in the past. While it’s too late to lead the pack – or is it? – they have the potential to catch up quickly. What are they waiting for?
Metabo HPT – Metabo HPT’s MultiVolt cordless power tool line seems to respond well to the brand’s current selection of batteries. While it seems they have a smaller range of tools that might benefit from tabless cells, there’s still the potential for improvements.
Lagging DIY Cordless Power Tool Brands
Craftsman – Craftsman’s V20 line of cordless power tools keeps growing, but we haven’t seen higher capacity batteries or many tools that require them.
Dremel – Dremel’s cordless system is extremely limited to a couple of specialty tools. The brand seems to have shifted towards lower-cost hobby-type tools, and so higher-powered maker equipment seems out of the question.
Hart – Can we really expect for a Walmart-exclusive cordless power tool brand to tap into premium battery technology?
Kobalt – Lowe’s Kobalt line of cordless power tools has been somewhat of a mystery over the past few years. Kobalt’s premium XTR cordless tools went through a period of wavering availability, as if it were relegated to holiday season “special buy” status, but this improved in more recent times. They could launch a premium-priced best-ever Kobalt cordless combo kit, with brushless tools designed around tabless cell batteries, but this seems contrary to Lowe’s intentions.
Skil – Skil’s cordless power tool lineups deliver unmatched value, in my opinion. Tabless cells don’t seem fitting for the brand’s 12V or 20V Max lineups, but could perhaps help their 40V Max cordless outdoor power tools deliver boosted performance.
BigTimeTommy
Impressive strives
Stuart
Thanks! *fixed*
Boots
Always love your articles Stuart. I think there are a couple of cordless brands that are also worth watching. BYD, CATL. Sure, the cordless tools they manufacture happen to be cars and grid storage, but this is where battery tech is at its cutting edge and the biggest innovations will be in cycle life, cost reduction, reliability, energy density, and sustainability. Power tools are expensive. And cordless tools especially so. Keep an eye on LFP chemistry as this is where I see the most near term benefit in longevity, (6-10k cycle life) safety and cost. Also no use of cobalt or nickel. Keeping an eye on this space may give the best insight into where battery technology is headed. Solid state batteries may still be a ways out, but who knows.
Stuart
Thank you for the kind words!
As I understand it, LFP batteries can’t handle the power delivery needs of cordless power tools.
Electric cars and grid storage prioritize capacity and long life. Cordless power tool batteries need that too, but the greatest need is high-density power, and LFP batteries aren’t yet up to the task.
Boots
Some of the new blade batteries are getting over 200wh/kg energy density. And charge speeds are rapidly increasing. I think the first sector to evaluate this technology in smaller power tools will be the professional sectors where charge time and reliability/ durability are evaluated by bean counters. I could see a Hilti type professional brand maybe looking at this since it contracts out to major builders and maintains and services it’s tools. Again I could be completely wrong. Time will tell.
Stuart
Energy storage density and power delivery are different and also inversely dependent.
Imaging you’re at one side of a room and need to get to the other. How fast can you get there depends on the crowding. Cram more people in the room, and your travel is going to be impeded.
James
Personally, for my use cases, I care way more about the quality of batteries than squeezing the last drop of power. So far, my Bosch 18V batteries have stood the test of time with only one bad battery in over 10 years and about 15 batteries.
My M18 batteries are ok, but I have several that only charge to 3 bars instead of 4, and they also seem to drain faster. That’s a pain, and I would prefer stricter QC and more functional (cell balancing) existing tech than the newest greatest +10% of power.
Plus I’m in Canada; our heavy wet snow is not made for an 18V snowblower. I just want the tools that work great on 18V to have quality batteries along side of them. I’m not really complaining but I’m sorry if complaining; I’m a little disappointed with the M18 batteries, even as I love the tools.
Michael F
After a few years my collection of M18/M12 batteries felt like it had more failed batteries than not. That wasn’t entirely true (only about ~30% wouldn’t charge or take a full charge) but the effect was enough for me to switch to using my secondary brand, Makita, full time. I’ve yet to have a Makita battery (LXT or XGT) fail on me yet in the exact same temperatures and use cases. We’ll see.
fred
I talk about my Makita vs Milwaukee 18V battery experience in an earlier post:
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/milwaukee-pipeline-2024-countdown/#comments%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
In a nutshell – most of my Makita failures were with early failures of BL1830 batteries. With both brands I’ve experienced something like 1/3 failures. I started with Makita in 2008 versus 2014 for Milwaukee. So, I’d say that I’ve done a bit better with Makita – but there may be complicating factors – like greater use of the Milwaukee tools.
Nathan
It’s a generally held opinion online from what I can see, so I don’t think it’s merely anecdotal.
If I was to venture a guess as to the reason, it’s a mixture of better BMS for the LXT batteries and actual communication between the tools and the battery.
Milwaukee has made a lot of marketing noise about their communication but testing by people like ToolScientist have mostly dispelled the myth. So it seems a lot easier for Milwaukee tools to overdraw from the batteries and potentially drive them into damaging territories.
It could also just be a benefit to making the same thing in the same location for a long time.
MFC
Yes, that’s my desire as well.
I don’t need 15% more power. I need reliability.
I have had a higher ratio of Milwaukee 18v batteries and tools die than Dewalt, but not that much more. I had a Makita battery die too. Some failed at 10 years, some at 3 years. Most were just partial failures as I could jump them back to life if they wouldn’t charge at all. All of the ryobi batteries died and would not revive. Now I just use adapters on them since I rarely use them.
Better quality, not better stats. The stats are great as they are. When I need more oomph, I pull out a bigger tool. I don’t use my impact to drive 8″ x 1/2″ lags. I use my impact wrench.
Jlynn
What do you mean by “use adapters on them”.
I’ve got a Craftsman 60V that won’t hold a charge and Craftsman just tells me the warranty has expired and they don’t make them anymore for my perfectly great push mown.
Will
This is the best reason ever to stay away from brands that don’t tend to have stable battery systems. Dewalt has had the sale battery design over ten years now and designed it to be flexible enough to keep even with technology advancements. I know a few other companies have also been very dependable with keeping their battery form factors. This is why I prefer to stick with a leader in the cordless market for cordless tools, less likely they will go under or change the form factor. Some would argue that the money saved with budget brands, you can afford to replace them if they go obsolete. If you have more than a few cordless tools, that looses is cost effectiveness pretty quick.
MM
If we’re talking battery tech specifically I think Flex is a leader. They had pouch style packs before anyone else did. And even now none of the other brands who were later to the game have an answer for Flex’s 10ah Stacked Lithium pack. I also think Flex deserves credit for clearly marking the power capability of their batteries in watts right there on the pack. I also think they deserve credit for superior chargers. That might not be as glamorous as the latest battery tech but it is related and important. The most basic, cheapest, Flex charger is 160 watts or over 6 amps. Many of the Flex kits come with a 280 watt charger–that’s over 10 amps–and that’s not even their top end model. Nobody else has chargers that come close.
Now it’s true that we haven’t heard about tabless cells from Flex yet, but does that matter when they have 6 & 10ah pouch packs? To me wondering if Flex has tabless cells in the works is a bit like wondering if your favorite sports car brand will be coming out with a new V8 model when they already have a V12 in the lineup.
Stuart
Brands can order pouch cells in any size and with different properties.
Other brands do not have 10Ah-size pouch cell batteries because they found the tech to have diminished benefits at higher capacities.
Flex might not be willing to backtrack from pouch cells and go tabless.
MM
Do tabless batteries have any advantage over pouch cells?
Stuart
Yes – thermal dissipation.
Milwaukee has a 6Ah pack with pouch cells but is going with tabless for 8Ah and 12Ah.
Dewalt has a 5Ah pack with pouch cells but is going with tabless for 8Ah.
Makita went with tabless for their 8Ah-equivalent XGT battery.
Bosch is going tabless for their 8Ah battery.
I spoke with Milwaukee about the reasons for this last year, and with Dewalt recently. Tabless batteries perform better in high capacity and high power applications.
Milwaukee added that recycle time was better, such as if users want to use a battery in demanding applications, recharge it, and go again.
There are holes in my knowledge. Why did Milwaukee launch a Forge 6Ah with pouch cells rather than use tabless cells for everything? I think it comes down to power-to-size/weight ratio, but at a certain point higher capacity cells lose that benefit and compromise with respect to thermal dissipation.
Dewalt has said that their PowerStack 5Ah and PowerPack 8Ah batteries will deliver very similar peak power levels and drive comparable XR tool performance.
Flex’s pouch cells are good. I had one DOA pack, but flukes can happen. Flex’s product ranges doesn’t approach the breadth of Dewalt or Milwaukee, and certainly not when it comes to high-demand continuous-use types of tools.
Flex’s batteries could be perfectly suited for their tools, but in a general sense tabless Li-ion cells are expected to deliver greater performance.
Flex also has 21.6V nominal voltages, with groups of (6) Li-ion cells in series, compared to (5) for 18V batteries. This allows for higher wattage delivery, which could help shrink the gap between 24V Max pouch-cell batteries and 18V/20V Max tabless cell batteries.
If Flex launched batteries with tabless cells, I would definitely expect them to perform better than their pouch cell batteries. They might also be able to best 18V-type batteries with the same cells, on account of having 20% more battery cells, but Flex – or at least Lowe’s as their primary retailer – seems to be moving away from “MORE POWER!!!” as a core selling point.
In a technical sense, they’re falling behind. In a practical sense, they might be exactly where they want to be.
MM
I don’t buy the thermal dissipation claim. Just thinking logically about it a flat pouch cell has much larger surface area than an equivalent cylindrical cell. Its ability to shed heat is superior, provided the designers of the packs put gaps or heat dissipating materials between the individual cells, the same way that cylindrical cells have gaps between them.
Dewalt has said that their PowerStack 5Ah and PowerPack 8Ah batteries will deliver very similar peak power levels and drive comparable XR tool performance.
That is believable, and it matches what I’ve seen from TTC testing tools on Youtube. But that is also the very problem I’m talking about. If a 5ah pouch pack can deliver the same peak power as an 8ah tabless, that implies that pouch are superior, at least in terms of power delivery? Therefore, I am curious why you would expect a hypothetical tabless pack from Flex to outperform their existing pouch packs unless it was much bigger. Here we have Dewalt claiming that a 5ah pouch matches a 8ah tabless. So to equal Flex’s 10ah pouch we need at least 16ah tabless? Nobody has that on the market yet. If Flex’s batteries are behind then who is ahead of them? Who has the >16ah tabless pack? Who has the >10ah pouch pack?
JR Ramos
Honestly I’ve not looked at sheets and testing for stacked pouch arrays but I can see this claim as being accurate…curious where the noticeable peak would lie on a graph. The problem here is heat saturation and dissipation – power tool battery packs are asked to generate a lot of heat and there just simply isn’t enough dissipation to mitigate that. Luckily most cells are capable of operating at considerably elevated temperatures. Air is of course a horrible conductor so unless there is free air movement, that extra surface area and air gap would normally be a disadvantage but in this case, given the sealed cases made of plastic types and thicknesses that serve as great insulators, it’s probably a washout. Even a heat sink to slow saturation within the battery pack wouldn’t help much at all, nor do the heat sinks that are present in some tools in the housing. It’s still worth putting them there but they are of limited benefit and often just help to protect/prolong certain components like high current mosfets and such. So the crux is attempting less resistance and heat generation in the first place but the the taller the stack of flat pouch cells, the less actual surface area you get for dissipation and conductive layers between them can’t help a lot…again, no free air flow. I was skeptical of Bosch’s claims that the extra grooves in their packs actually do much at all to help cooling…plastic is still thick…but I suppose it must help at least a little if there’s a breeze. I’d be curious to see testing results on that particular feature but I suspect the benefit is a very tiny amount.
I think it’s great that we do have such capable cells/packs/tools these days…really is impressive…but we still have to accept the differences and limitations of the energy storage and interfaces vs. a/c mains powered tools.
So many other devices that use various battery packs/types don’t run into the issues that we see in power tools (very much including effective vacuums where battery life is typically poor (lifespan)). Getting rid of the heat is the achille’s heel. But consumers demand power and speed (charging) so the cells suffer more and we just complain and replace…kinda works out I guess.
Stuart
There seems to be a point of inflection somewhere between 5-6Ah and 8Ah. Otherwise we would have seen higher capacity pouch cell batteries across the board.
Pouch cells are more complex, not only in terms of thermal dissipation, but safety measures such as swell detection.
To achieve higher capacities without increasing charge density, you need larger cells. You can increase the charge density to maintain a comparable footprint, but such batteries are likely to run hotter, potentially reducing power delivery.
Consider 18V battery packs with 10x 18650 cells. As you go from using 1.5Ah cells to 2.0Ah, 2.5Ah, and then 3.0Ah, the max continuous discharge current decreases and internal resistance increases.
Most brands stopped at using 2.5Ah cells in 10-cell battery packs because 3.0Ah offered too steep a drop in performance.
Consider 21700-sized 3Ah and 4Ah cells. There seems to be a similar drop in performance when going from 4Ah to 5Ah cell capacities.
Dewalt and Milwaukee offer upgraded power in 5Ah and 6Ah capacity pouch cell batteries, respectively.
Increasing from 5Ah or 6Ah pouch cells to 8Ah might have required moving to an unacceptably large battery pack, or an increase in density that negatively impacted power delivery potential.
Tabless 4Ah battery cells are advertised as delivering greater power potential and cooler operation than older “tabbed” cells. Same form factor, improved internal resistance and power delivery.
It’s possible that Flex went with pouch cells across the board before tabless potential was known to them. Or, they could have made a strategic decision to launch a fuller range of batteries. Flex’s cordless line was new to market and looking to stand out. Pouch batteries gave them a distinct marketing advantage to potentially help boost early adoption.
Everything about Li-ion batteries is centered on thermal dissipation, at least if brands are interested in maintaining a consistent form factor.
Can you make a pouch-cell battery pack that outperforms a tabless battery pack of the same charge capacity? Absolutely. But at what charge capacity is this no longer true?
Brands have been testing battery packs that individuals cannot build themselves. If what all of them are saying is in agreement with each other and established practical knowledge, we have to take it as matter of fact.
Flex claims 2520W max output for their Stacked Lithium 10Ah battery. That would be 420W per cell (or cell stack??), assuming there are 6 cells (6x 4V max = 24V Max).
Makita claims 2100W max output for their XGT 4Ah tabless battery. That would be 210W per cell.
When it launched, Flex compared their 10Ah battery power output with Dewalt and Milwaukee 12Ah battery packs. Extrapolating Makita’s 2100W claims, a 15-cell M18 of FlexVolt battery with the same cells should be capable of delivering a theoretical max output of 3150 watts.
Flex’s 12Ah battery is advertised as delivering 2160 watts. They might be able to achieve 3780 watts with tabless 4Ah cells (18 x 210W).
Flex’s 6Ah pouch battery is advertised as delivering 1920 watts. Their cylindrical cell 8Ah battery is advertised as delivering 1440 watts. If Makita’s 8Ah-equivalent 10-cell battery can deliver 210W per cell, and we assume Flex’s 8Ah 12-cell battery can deliver a hypothetical 2520W.
Thus, a Flex tabless 8Ah battery should be able to match the power output of their pouch cell 10Ah battery, and a tabless 12Ah battery should be able to exceed it.
Competing brands’ upgraded 12Ah batteries should be able to exceed the power delivery of Flex’s pouch 10Ah battery.
I don’t see how Flex will be able to claim they can deliver more power than competitors without going to tabless batteries?
All of this is based on the assumption that Flex and Makita’s max power output claims are accurate and representative of peak pouch and tabless cell performance.
Consider Flex’s pouch cell 3.5Ah battery, which is advertised as delivering 1200W of max power output. If we extrapolate that 2100W across 10x tabless 4Ah batteries allows for 210W per cell, a Flex tabless 4Ah battery would be capable of 210W x 6 = 1260W.
Thus:
Flex 3.5Ah pouch: 1200W
Flex 4Ah tabless: 1260W*
Flex 6Ah pouch: 1920W
Flex 8Ah tabless: 2520W*
Flex 10Ah pouch: 2520W
Flex 12Ah tabless: 3780W*
* Theoretically
18V/20V Max theoretical values based on Makita published specs:
4Ah tabless: 1050W
8Ah tabless: 2100W
12Ah tabless: 3150W
Things almost NEVER work out like this, due to thermal considerations, BMS programming, and tool power draw limits.
However, it seems clear that 8Ah tabless and 12Ah tabless batteries could in theory out-power Flex pouch 6Ah and 10Ah batteries, respectively.
In theory, a Flex 18-battery pack – comparable in size to their current 12Ah battery – might be capable of delivering 50% greater max power than their pouch cell 10Ah battery.
Again, this is all speculative based on two brands’ published wattage output specs.
Makita claims 2800W output for their tabbed XGT battery with 8Ah capacity (16Ah equivalent). Flex’s 12Ah battery is printed with 2160W max output, but their website says 2520W. Hypothetically, 2800W per 20x 4Ah cells is 140W per cell, and 2520W per 18x 4Ah cells is also 140A per cell.
With Makita and Flex technical specs looking to agree, I think it’s fair to cross-extrapolate in this manner.
Can Flex – or any other brand – increase the charge capacity of pouch cell batteries without diminishing power output, and also without increasing the form factor in a way that would impact compatibility? I would say no.
If they tried to increase charge capacity without tremendously affecting form factor, there would be a rise in internal resistance, rise in temperature, and drop in max power delivery potential.
It seems that, for situations where you can have at least 2 rows of cylindrical cells, tabless will be more practical than pouch.
I absolutely buy the claims that it’s about thermal dissipation. Milwaukee also specifically referenced turnaround time, and it’s something I hope to get further clarity on in further talks.
Farkleberry
MM, you seem to have your mind made up that FLEX and the pouch cell is the best. I understand the reluctance to believe tool marketing claims, I’m often skeptical.
Many aspects of power tool design involve compromises – pros and cons. If Flex is the only brand offering large capacity pouch cell packs, they have decided the pros outweigh the cons. Everyone else has decided the opposite.
Batteryuniversity.com has some great general info on pouch and cylindrical cells:
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-301a-types-of-battery-cells
I’m not knowledgeable about batteries, but here’s my summary of their points:
Cylindrical cells are ubiquitous, very dimensionally stable and have high energy density (ah/kg). They do not stack together in a space efficient manner, but the gaps allow cooling.
Individual pouch cells are very space efficient on their own, but require space between cells for cooling. Stacking them like a deck of cards (or power tool battery pack) is problematic. The cells tend to swell in use by 8-10%, and over time can delaminate if not restrained. The restraint is obviously at odds with cooling. They are typically better for light loading (like tablets, phones, etc.)
I have heard lots of anecdotal reports of Flex pouch battery packs leaking. Have you ever had any issues?
MM
@Farkleberry
I currently do not own any Flex tools. My comments were with respect to battery technology only. I currently believe that pouch cells are the best performing on the market currently, and that means that I think Flex happens to be the battery leader right now because they have the largest pouch style pack. In my opinion tabless is a close 2nd place, but nobody has a 10a or larger tabless pack out yet.
You make a good point that if Flex is the only brand offering the 10ah pouch pack there must be some underlying reason for why they decided it was a good idea but other brand’s didn’t. The problem is that could very well be a business decision rather than a matter of practical engineering like we’re talking about here. I think we understand the technical side pretty well, but what we don’t know are things like costs, lead times & volumes on cells, etc. Perhaps the company making pouches was able make enough to fulfill Flex’s order but couldn’t make enough to interest Milwaukee? Maybe the accountants figured it was more profitable to use cylindrical batteries?Obviously those are shots in the dark, but there’s clearly some factors we don’t know.
As for the leakage of Flex batteries, I haven’t experienced that myself as I don’t own any of their tools, but I did research it, there are a lot of photos and videos online. It seems that the Flex batteries which use standard cylindrical cells have a thermally conductive rubbery material between the cells in the pack. This material can leak out of the packs. The leakage is not the battery cells but rather this thermal compound. The leakage problem does not apply to the “stacked lithium” pouch cell packs as they do not have the thermal compound.
MM
@Stuart
It all comes down to this statement:
Competing brands’ upgraded 12Ah batteries should be able to exceed the power delivery of Flex’s pouch 10Ah battery.
Are there any of those on the market right now? If the answer is no, then is Flex not the current leader? Now perhaps Milwaukee will take the crown when their tabless 12ah hits the market but it’s not out yet.
Farkleberry
MM,
Thanks for that correction on the FLEX cylindrical packs leaking, not sure why I thought it was pouch.
I’m not sure I would trust Chervon’s claims that the packs will still perform fine without the thermal fluid. If the pack is designed to have thermal fluid, I would imagine there is a decrease in performance and/or longevity without it.
I’m also not sure I’d call a company who has to tell it’s customers there’s no problem with their leaking batteries “the battery leader”. I would echo other readers’ comments that I would take a 10% performance reduction for a reliable and durable product every time.
Blanket statements like “pouch cells are the best performing on the market currently” are missing crucial context. What application are they best at? What capacity, amp draw, temperature environment, etc.?
This is akin to arguing,
“Submarines are the best!”
“No, Spaceships are the best!
“No, Monster Trucks are the BEST!”
Makita, etc. currently have tabless 8 ah equivalent packs out, and I trust that superior cylindrical pack heat dissipation, overall thermal and dimensional stability and durability and performance at high current draws are the reasons, not some opaque supplier snafu in a world swimming in pouch cells.
If I had to guess why FLEX is going pouch for all sizes, maybe it’s marketing to people who hate nuance, and feel safer knowing that “pouch cells are best.”
MM
@Farkleberry
I haven’t read anything about whether or not the Flex batteries work OK without the fluid or not, it didn’t even occur to me to think about that. From what I’ve read Flex has been good about replacing the leaky batts under their lifetime battery warranty so I view it as sort of a non-issue. If you happened to get a leaky battery then warranty it. Or better yet avoid the problem altogether and just get stacked lithium packs. I’ve been thinking about buying into Flex for over a year now and my plan has always been to avoid buying the standard packs if at all possible–not really because of the leakage, but because it seems silly to me to buy into a new high-tech tool system only to use yesterday’s battery technology, especially when that brand’s main claim to fame is its battery tech. It’s like ordering the fish at a steakhouse.
As for who is “the battery leader”; just to be clear I do not think that is Flex. In my opinion they are not the leader. But this article isn’t about one leader, or a ranked list. It’s categories. And I think Flex belongs in the “leader” category.
Regarding my comment about “pouch cells being the best performing on the market currently”–you’re absolutely right, I should have been more clear about exactly what that meant. Specifically, when I wrote it, I was referring to power delivery for high power demand tools. In other words, discharge rate or what kind of power output (watts) the tool can deliver with that battery. That’s specifically what I had in mind. But now that you bring it up, I believe that Dewalt and Milwaukee both claim their pouch cells charge faster, handle heat better, and are more durable with respect to long-term battery life compared to their other batteries. Pouch packs are still fairly new so those durability claims remain to be seen, but the marketing claims all say that pouch is superior to the alternative in pretty much everything–at least right now. So I seem to have gotten lucky here: I made broad claims while in reality I was talking about one specific thing but when I go back and think about the other factors….pouch still comes out on top, at least if we can trust the company’s claims about their longer life.
That will surely change as larger tabless packs hit the market, but they aren’t out for purchase yet, while the 10ah Flex pouch packs have been for a long time, so I that’s why I think it’s fair to call Flex *a* battery leader currently.
Farkleberry
Hey MM,
I can’t tell if you’re trolling me?
Dewalt and Milwaukee aren’t offering pouch cells for their latest large and high current draw packs, only tabless. That’s pretty much the point of this and some previous articles.
You and Flex seem to be the only voices touting pouch for anything but lightweight, low current draw applications.
Marketing is an amazing tool, and it works to some degree on most people, and to a great degree on some people.
I occasionally like to engage in some magical thinking as well.
Agree to disagree.
MM
@Farkleberry
No, I’m not trolling you. And and Flex and I are certainly not the only ones touting the higher performance of pouch cells. Higher up in the thread Stuart quoted Dewalt as stating:
Dewalt has said that their PowerStack 5Ah and PowerPack 8Ah batteries will deliver very similar peak power levels and drive comparable XR tool performance.
so, according to Dewalt here, a 5ah pouch battery performs like an 8ah tabless.
According to Milwaukee, their 6.0 Forge pouch battery:
a) has the power of a 12.0 HO battery while being smaller and lighter
b) charges faster
c) has longer life
See: https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/milwaukee-m18-forge-battery/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
According to Dewalt, their 5ah Powerstack pouch battery:
a) has 50% more power than a 5.0 standard pack
b) double the lifespan
See: https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/dewalt-powerstack-5ah-battery-answers/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
Dewalt said the same thing about the earlier 1.7 Powerstack, clearly advertising it as having 50% more power than a 3ah standard pack, among other benefits.
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/dewalt-powerstack-battery/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
Power is clearly a marketing point of these batteries. I’d go so far as to say it’s the main point of a pouch pack: same size but more power. You mentioned that marketing works especially well on some people. This may be true, though here I am praising a brand I don’t even own. But I can see the inverse is also true: in some cases marketing conveys nothing, no matter how clear they make their points.
Marketing aside, I think you can learn the most from real world testing. My favorite is Torque Test Channel on Youtube, where the Powerstack and Milwaukee 6.0 HO batteries deliver dyno performance equal to larger batteries on their respective platforms. As one of many examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vag90QnEFc
There is zero technical reason why those packs cannot be upsized, as Flex has demonstrated with the 10ah. Beyond that it’s simple math. Wire more in parallel, the same way that existing higher capacity packs have additional parallel rows of cells. We’ve heard that tabless cells are also good–and I completely agree–but I have yet to see anyone prove tabless superior to pouch. In fact, the little data I have seen (and Stuart’s quote from Dewalt above) suggest the opposite.
Stuart
It’s not that tabless cells are better than pouch cells, but that tabless battery packs can unlock higher power levels than pouch cell battery packs, depending on their engineering and cell count.
JR Ramos
Keep in mind a power tool battery pack has one major limiting factor here – heat dissipation through the plastic casing. Bosch is the only one that has attempted to address this (I think?). The thermal goo in Flex’s packs is just a different flavor of heat sink but once it is saturated with heat you’re left with rate of dissipation, which is governed by this thick insulative plastic. Even if the cells were mated firmly against the plastic (e.g. a CPU on its heat sink) it’s still just a poor conductor and thus heat is retained. These heat sinks in *enclosed spaces* like a battery pack can only delay the heat saturation and once you’re there, you’re left with what you’ve got, which could be voltage drop/reduced output, or it may just be shortened lifespan of the cells themselves. This is the exact same thing that limits the albeit impressive performance of li-ion flashlights – they are generally just single cell with plenty of host metal for air flow and heat dissipation, but they hit a limit quickly.
So if Flex’s pack was designed with this goo and then it’s removed…you’re not really gaining or losing anything as long as that heat has nowhere to go, quickly. Without goo it may heat up faster but with goo it’s still going to heat up the same under load…only delaying the inevitable but surely they had parameters in mind for typical loads/durations. Not magic sauce, though, in this application.
Farkleberry
MM
Thanks for all of those links, but I still think your missing my (or the) point. I’m not saying pouch batteries are junk or weak.
They can be designed to be many different things, but are usually designed to be small and light, where they excel. Obviously there is a reason they are in so many electronic devices like phones, tablets, etc.
I’m going to go through your points in order:
Dewalt said pouch 5 ah is similar power (read slightly inferior) to tabless 8 ah. It is smaller and lighter however, so perhaps preferable in application.
The next 3 marketing examples from dewalt and Milwaukee are comparing pouch to TABBED cells. The tabs are a bottleneck pouch cells never had, and the new tabless cells remove that bottleneck. Instant high power delivery is a strength of both pouch and TABLESS cells.
The torque test channel video shows the 5 ah power stack is significantly larger and heavier than Dewalt’s conventional 18650 5 ah battery, but offers superior power performance. His summary at the end of the video states the 5 ah pouch cell battery is basically equivalent in power performance to the TABBED 21700 6 ah pack, but smaller and lighter (though more expensive).
Weight is the main reason (IMO), Flex went with pouch – weight. 12 (Flex) vs 10 (18v or 36v) makes for some more cumbersome packs for drills, etc. By using pouch they can better balance power to weight.
Weight is the reason Flex, Dewalt, Milwaukee, etc. are using pouch for their latest, highest performance smaller 5 or 6 ah batteries. There is a great reason Milwaukee and Dewalt are NOT using pouch for larger sizes… I will return to this later …
I’ll also agree with the Torque test assessment that longer lifespan remains to be seen. Just going off my experience with pouch cells in phones, etc. vs cylindrical cells in power tools, flashlights, etc., I’ve seen better life by far from cylindrical, but battery technology is a moving target.
This may be a reason Makita has yet to offer pouch cells, as we’ve heard multiple reports here (which I can anecdotally echo) of their terrific battery durability.
Finally, and the point you so doggedly refuse to acknowledge:
“There is zero technical reason why those packs {pouch} cannot be upsized”
There is a great reason that everyone except Flex is using tabbed and not pouch cells for their newest, highest performance, large capacity packs (8 ah in 18v = 4 ah in 36v and larger):
HEAT DISSIPATION!
HEAT DISSIPATION!
HEAT DISSIPATION!
MM
@Farkleberry
Dewalt said pouch 5 ah is similar power (read slightly inferior) to tabless 8 ah. It is smaller and lighter however, so perhaps preferable in application.
Isn’t this the whole point? If the pouch pack delivers more power while being smaller does that not support my point all along that tabless cells aren’t really bringing anything new to the party compared to pouch?
The next 3 marketing examples from dewalt and Milwaukee are comparing pouch to TABBED cells
Yes. You had stated that Flex and I were the only ones promoting pouch cells for high current draw applications. Yet here we have ads from red and yellow clearly touting increased power as the main benefit of their new pouch packs. So, in other words, everybody touts the power of pouch cells.
I’m glad you mentioned things like weight because I think there’s a lot more going on here than simply comparing the electrical performance of tabless vs. pouch cells. There are other variables.
Heat Dissipation? I’ve already stated I don’t buy that explanation, and I say that as an engineer. I’d be happy to discuss it in detail but I could write pages on the topic and this conversation is already beyond cumbersome for this reply system. We can certainly agree to disagree about how big the heat dissipation issue is, but I’m sticking to my guns on the comparative performance of the cells, at least given the packs currently on the market.
My gut tells me this comes down to money, but I don’t have any data on that. Does anyone know what these cells cost wholesale, pouch vs. cylindrical?
Farkleberry
MM
I’m impressed you waited this long to tell us you’re an engineer, that’s atypical (BTW, I love competent engineers).
You’re obviously not an electrical engineer with expertise in batteries.
In my VERY limited and every tool company’s except Flex’s expert understanding, pouch cells are inferior to tabless in large sizes. These companies have no qualms or difficulties buying pouch cells for smaller batteries that have lower prices and possibly lower profit margins.
In your VERY limited and Flex’s expert understanding, pouch cells’ pros outweigh the cons (marketing and otherwise) in all sizes.
If you’re so suspicious of short term profit motives out weighing performance gains, doesn’t it make sense that Flex’s product line and its marketing is simplified (read cheaper) by not introducing any tabless cells and just keeping all pouch for it’s top line?
That’s great that you have a blind belief unencumbered by logic, experience or evidence that pouch cells are the best for every application. The only evidence you provide is Flex marketing and a seemingly a willful misunderstanding of the marketing from companies who obviously chose tabless only for large sizes. I don’t mean to be nasty but I wonder how this approach would work in your engineering arena.
JR Ramos
Farkleberry…..”There is a great reason that everyone except Flex is using tabbed and not pouch cells for their newest, highest performance, large capacity packs (8 ah in 18v = 4 ah in 36v and larger):
HEAT DISSIPATION!
HEAT DISSIPATION!
HEAT DISSIPATION!”
No.
Not at all the reason. Slightly lower internal resistance and (momentarily) less heat which contribute to voltage maintenance under load. That’s the reason and the advantage, not dealing with heat created and building up.
Heat dissipation is woefully inadequate in all of these packs no matter the cell type. It’s the limitation and achille’s heel and will not improve and unlock more performance until someone decides it’s worth it to change the platform design (pack housing materials, externally exposed sinks, fans, etc). This is why thermal cutouts are standard (and often irritating and limiting in productivity). Heat builds up, can’t go anywhere, and the electronics serve as a failsafe but shutting it down.
Tabless provides no heat dissipation and just a brief advantage there in terms of slower heat buildup. But heat is still building up and will saturate in a short time. In the packs there is no appreciable heat sinking that can be cooled by moving air or by conduction to external moving air, and no airflow at all within the enclosed battery pack. So we’re stuck with it and tabless doesn’t help that at all.
Stuart
We’re at a point where everyone is drawing upon their own separate experiences and technical insights to make educated guesses.
Everyone is on different pages.
If I recall correctly, I was told that that pouch cell battery packs heat up faster than tabless. We didn’t go into detail about the mechanics.
We’ll have a couple of technical discussions about this next week that should clear up a lot of things.
Farkleberry
JR,
Interesting points, any accessible info/links/recommended reading would be helpful.
I obviously find these topics interesting and feel the occasionally heated (no pun intended) discussions are entertaining and often enlightening. A good debate needs moderation and agreed upon facts don’t hurt either.
Looking forward to learning more in future posts.
JR Ramos
Well, we’re really still just talking basic electrical theory here. Resistance results in heat, heat is (generally) better avoided, too much heat is damaging, and so dissipating that heat is a very important element of design. Enclosed battery packs just do an exceptionally poor job of this as is.
Pushing more current through a given circuit will result in greater heat (a function of the inherent resistance in the materials). So if you have a material with lower resistance, then for the same current you should see lower heat buildup – or rather, *slower* heat build up. But as long as heat is still being created it needs to be dealt with.
So the resistance in these different types of cells is just inherently different – in this case we’re mostly looking at mechanical construction rather than chemistry but it’s a bit of both. Tabless construction just sort of removes some of the resistance, thus generates heat a bit slower…but still building up because we ask for more juice from these packs than they are all that comfortable providing for long. So with lower resistance we get a longer period of peak performance until the cells start to drain and/or the heat builds up enough to either cause voltage sag (increased resistance…resistance will increase with heat in the same material) or the thermal cutout kicks in.
Hope that makes sense. Tabless is an improvement but only in one aspect of the equation here. The big aspect is still heat buildup and we aren’t effectively addressing that in power tools currently (no pun intended), but we could. Whether or not it’s ultimately necessary just depends on whether we think we need still more power from handheld tools, and for most things we probably don’t. But for things like miter saws and mowers and probably OPE it would be a good thing to address. *OR* changing up the power source to higher voltage can address some of this more easily, to a point.
Maybe an easy way to think of it is attempting to overheat a can of beans until it bursts open. One candle, five candles, a small gas burner. They’ll all heat it up to bursting point, just at a different rate, and when that bursting point is achieved, something has to be done to either stop it or let it burst. Heat buildup through current/resistance is the same and different materials affect the rate of buildup, but don’t stop it or alleviate it, so some method of dissipation is necessary and our battery packs are pretty close to the worst scenario there (hence the thermal safety cutoff) but of course packs have other concerns like protecting the cells from impact and damage, not exposing users to electrical shock, serving as a convenient interchangeable connection, etc. It could be done better, though, just never has been. It wasn’t an issue with the lower power density of NiCd and NiMH but li-ion is an angry beast that just barely tolerates being walked on a leash. 🙂
Stuart, you’ve done a good job with the articles. It’s not an easy subject to try to make a concise understanding just on a marketing/purchasing level let alone on a basic or more thorough technical level where more considerations need to be learned and understood.
Travis
Dewalt has a 12 amp charger
MM
Yes they do, but it’s not in any of their kits if I recall correctly. The best you get in kits is the 8ah, and that one is quite uncommon and I think it might be packed only with Flexvolt. I think it’s significant when most of the chargers you get with Dewalt kits are only 1 or 2 ah while Flex’s most basic is 6, and the 280 watt one is surprisingly common.
Stuart
Most users don’t want to pay extra for faster chargers.
Many users bring multiple chargers to a jobsite, and there’s risk of faster chargers reducing the max number of chargers on a circuit.
Different brands take different approaches.
The point is you can get a faster charger if you want one.
MM
I think the cost to build a nicer charger compared to a more basic one is minuscule. It feels crappy to buy a tool kit which might cost a few or even several hundred $$$ only to get some slow charger when you could have had a much nicer one if Dewalt (or whomever) bothered to spend an extra dollar on it. I know I’m not the only Toolguyd user to complain about having a bunch of unwanted cheapo chargers floating around. If those chargers were reasonably fast then they wouldn’t be unwanted. Therefore I think it’s significant that one can say there’s no such thing as a crappy Flex charger. I don’t think they’re really charging more for that privilege either, their starter kits are competitively priced with others.
Though I will freely admit this: it’s easy to find deals on most brands like Dewalt and Milwaukee if you are just a little patient. Flex? Not so much. I think that they are a leader in battery tech, but they’re no leader when it comes to getting good deals.
Mr B
The Bosch Hell-ion charger supplied with the Pro core starter kit is rated at 16 amps. I installed the bluetooth module and set the charger rate lower to extend battery life.
Michael F
It would seem like tabless 18650 cells would solve Makita’s LXT battery form factor problem while still allowing for higher draw applications. I wonder what’s stopping them from releasing one?
MM
The odd thing about LXT is that there have never been any batteries bigger than 6ah for it, even just basic tab-style cell types. Whereas brands like Milwaukee, Dewalt, and others had 8, 10, 12ah packs those were never a thing with LXT, to say nothing of the newer tech like tabless or pouch. In my opinion it there’s two possible explanations, or perhaps a bit of both:
First, the LXT platform might be running into a hard limit with respect to the current carrying capacity of the contacts between the battery and the tool. Makita might be deliberately not releasing those larger batteries because they know the contacts can’t handle the current without overheating.
Second, it might be a deliberate marketing strategy to get customers onto XGT.
Rog
I think its the latter, MM. I believe they’re afraid of cannibalizing XGT sales with upgraded LXT tech
fred
Makita sometimes does seem to march to the beat of a different drummer. But it does seem that they want to promote the XGT line and wean customers off LXT. Time will tell if that strategy works, But, their pricing and limited promotions for the XGT lineup (here in the USA anyway) may backfire and further erode their market share in NA.
I recently bought a Makita GML01PL lawnmower kit with 2 8Ah batteries. I have an odd use case – with landscapers doing most of my larger lawn care – but so far so good with moving it around in my hidden-garden areas. The $1299 price was a bit off-putting, and the Makita promotion (a free XGT leaf blower) did not soften the blow. I probably should have saved some money and bought the mower with its 4.0Ah batteries – since in over a month of use I have yet to need to charge the batteries.
Nathan
No you made the right decision; until the BL4040F supplant the standard BL4040 the additional amperage draw for the mowers with thick grass seems to make them deplete faster than a standard linear relationship.
Also in the US the 4ah was sold with a single slow charger…
MM
I think you’re right, now that I think about it a while back TTC built custom oversize LXT packs using nonstandard cells including up to 9ah using the same cells as those in Milwaukee HOs. They measured significantly improved tool performance with the upgraded batteries and they didn’t report any problems with the contacts getting smoked so that seems to prove that LXT can handle more power than the batteries they currently have on the market, so contacts are likely not the problem.
Farkleberry
One reason you haven’t seen larger capacity LXT is because the 18Vx2=36v tools were set up to run 18650 cells and there’s physically not enough room for 21700 packs. They could probably do 15 x 18650 cell packs like the XGT 5ah though.
Stuart
Tabless is limited to 21700 right now.
I haven’t spoken with battery manufacturers, but tool brands have said that 18650 cells aren’t available yet.
Makita will soon have a higher performance XGT 2.5Ah battery, but it might just use similar cells as the Milwaukee M12 High Output 2.5Ah and 5Ah batteries that launched a few years ago.
JR Ramos
I would love to be wrong, but I really doubt we’ll ever see the tabless shift into smaller cell sizes like 18650 even as popular as that still is. The EV market is where the volume is and they’ll never revert to the smaller sizes, so the manufacturers aren’t going to put the expense into revamping other cell sizes that have already reached their peak development and would likely see such small gains. I say that, but several of the China cell manufacturers do surprise us sometimes, but they are unreliable in several aspects and are wont to nix sizes or models on a whim (although also quick to pivot and work with OEM quantity special runs sometimes).
The gains on 18650 by going tabless may be pretty small, considering, but I think they would still be appreciated for existing designs and configurations…just don’t see it happening, though. Power tools and e-mobility are a not-insignificant chunk of the market but that piece of the pie is still so very small compared to EV.
Jronman
What do you mean announce a tabless 12 ah battery? They announced a forge 12 ah tabless last Pipeline. There was the m18 6 ah with pouch, m18 12 ah with tabless, and an mx fuel 6ah and 12 ah tabless. I have heard multiple times the mention of announcing a 12 ah tabless m18 recently.
Stuart
It’s coming, and we expect it, but without a model number, product page, pricing details, official performance claims, images, and availability info, an official release announcement with full details is pending.
Alexk
This is a tabless, as well as a pipeline question. Do you know if Milwaukee is releasing second generation Miter and Table Saws? And are any Surge batteries going to be part of the kit?
If I don’t have immediate need, should I wait to buy?
Regarding comments about Milwaukee battery life, I use my tools more than a homeowner and less than a carpenter and all my batteries seem to work fine. I didn’t write a date on them so I don’t know which are from around 2013 or later, but haven’t noticed a drop in power or charge. My most used batteries are the m12. This is just my experience. It’s a little worrisome to hear others less positive experiences.
Jronman
One of the reputable tool testing channels on YouTube claims Milwaukee batteries in their experience are the least reliable. Might have specifically been m18. I don’t have any m18 but the little m12 I have has been reliable so far.
DRT42
Could be counterfeit. Project Farm recently dropped a video about counterfeit batteries (all 3 major brands) and it is pretty much impossible to identify a fake without taking the battery apart. Search YT for “counterfeit tool batteries”. It’s a scary video.
MM
I doubt the problem is counterfeits. If the channel is the one I think it is they regularly tear down tools and batteries to show the insides, and they’ve also done videos where they made custom batteries by taking apart failed M18 packs and replacing the cells inside with better ones.
Tyler
I don’t think it’s the same one I regularly watch Project Farm and I don’t recall him creating new batteries from teardown packs, that sounds far more Torque Test Channel.
MM
@Tyler, TTC is the channel I was thinking of and the one I suspect Jronman was referring to.
If I recall correctly they have regularly complained about random electrical failures with Makita batteries and failures of the plastic housings with Milwaukee.
Stuart
I don’t. The miter saws are starting to age, but that means nothing. Dewalt still has a brushed model 7-1/4″ miter saw and doesn’t seem intended on updating it anytime soon. Why would Milwaukee?
I hope to see a hybrid-power cordless 10″ table saw with rolling stand, but I’m not sure Milwaukee is interested in launching a product like that.
Droid
Bosch is claiming longer runtime under heavy loads with their tabless cell batteries. Do pouch cells not offer better runtime? I have the m18 forge 6ah and it only runs 6 or 10 percent longer than the 6ho under a heavy load. It clearly has more power however.
Stuart
It’s difficult to make claims about runtime for batteries of similar charge capacity, since it depends on the tools being used and the nature of the tasks or applications. It all depends on the circumstances.
Tabless cells run cooler under demanding loads, and this could/should contribute to longer runtime.
A few years ago I asked a brand why they didn’t offer 18650-based 6Ah batteries like one of their competitors, and they said it was because they found 5Ah batteries to deliver longer runtime when used in demanding tasks. So why launch a 6Ah battery that doesn’t last as long as a 5Ah battery except in the lightest duty applications?
When looking at complete battery packs, my understanding is that tabless cells will deliver better performance at higher capacities. That is, given all of the details and contexts available so far, I would expect for a tabless 8Ah or 12Ah battery to perform better and maybe last longer than pouch cell batteries of the same capacity.
There are too many variables to be certain. But at the battery pack level, it’s telling that nearly every brand is going with tabless cells for higher capacity batteries, even if or where pouch cells might be available to them.
Milwaukee had pouch cells under active testing in their battery lab 2 years ago. They had a Forge battery pack with the cover off last year, with custom flat printed circuit cables and connectors and a late-2022 date code on the Rev5 circuit board.
I’m fairly confident they investigated both pouch and tabless battery technologies and found tabless to be better for higher capacity batteries.
Robert
I would like to hear more about the tabless cells themselves. Who manufactures them, what relative market share, any perceived difference in quality.
Jason M
Samsung, LG, Panasonic I think are the big ones. I thought I once read Panasonic was going to just produce for cars going forward but could be misremembering.
Rumor is EVE has a new tabless battery that can handle 100A and recharge in 9 minutes.
JR Ramos
I don’t have solid confirmation or a sheet but a couple years ago someone said that Murata (fka Sony) was getting on board with tabless, too. They’ve sure got the muscle to produce great cells but in recent years it seems like they’ve not put much effort into this area like they used to. I still find them in lots of packs but not as often. The full shift to China production instead of Japan kind of soured some OEMs and then other companies started to best them in performance (21700s for the most part, then). If not yet, then there no doubt will be a handful of the larger and barely recognized Chinese companies that will do tabless but most of those could never be geared up for major supply chain deliveries. I don’t follow the trade rags anymore but I’m curious about market adoption of tabless, too. Still fairly new.
It’s getting harder and harder just to get newer cell types and brands for testing or hobby use, especially from the major brands. Too many people doing dumb things and having accidents, or doing crap for youtube clicks, etc…and the e-bike and powerwall and vaping crowd contributed to a lot of flaming oopses. Samsung prints their wrappers now that basically say “do not use at all”…which is funny but the guarding of channels and end uses is being adopted more widely by most of them. All that is to say that “quality” is subjective based on use scenarios, but generally we know what to expect from the manufacturers’ white sheets, but those are even more guarded than they used to be and hard to come buy…lots of data in those which is traditionally confirmed or expanded upon by some excellent folks doing tests on them that differ a little from the sheets. That puts us in the guinea pig arena and trusting marketing, unfortunately.
Stuart
Murata recently announced a 23.4% drop in sales revenue for Li-ion batteries for power tools.
They project another 12.3% drop due to “the continuation of sluggish demand in the power tool market.”
Anyway, they also have warnings on their website, discouraging the use of loose cells. https://www.murata.com/en-us/products/batteries/cylindrical (scroll to the bottom)
The CPSC also strongly discourages the use of loose Li-ion cells.
There’s a lot that can go wrong, and battery makers don’t want the liability.
JR Ramos
Unfortunately not surprising. At one time they were top of the heap with some cells, besting Samsung and LG couldn’t touch either of them. The shift to China factories was a huge surprise to everyone but also writing on the wall (actually the sale of the battery biz to Murata was a huge surprise, too). People have half expected Samsung to reduce or withdraw as well.
Cells are actually pretty safe and can handle some oopses. It’s just that way too many idgits dive in to diy projects without taking the time to learn what the hell they are doing. Most notable with the e-bikes and power walls but we’ve seen it all at this point. It’s not helped by the shoddy designs and such with – oh, say the hoverboard time period. Then kids on youtube driving nails and shooting them with bullets aka “Jackass” style. And then a ton of misinformation still gets disseminated that conflates lithium ion rechargable traits with lithium-iron primary non-rechargeable traits – the latter being actually dangerous with less room for error and highly toxic chemical gasses that can truly affect your health long term. In comparison li-ion is really safe and li-po even more other than the flexible pouch shell that became the norm vs. older plastic encased pouches (camera batteries, etc). It’s not so much about actual safety as it is about avoiding litigation or regulation when the outliers get the strongest voice and dollars enter the picture. This is well known and was easy to see during the “evolution” period of Samsung’s shift with the labeling and statements.
With li-ion it was vapers who did a bunch of stupid things and should have known better (but whose fault is that within the chain…). People don’t understand electricity let alone power density, so they treat li-ion cells as they’re used to doing with basically inert alkline cells that we’re all used to…can’t do that.
John
8 years and 25 Makita LXT batteries and zero failures. They work for me always, charge fast, nothing fancy, no bells and whistles, fine by me. Most came bundled in 4 packs with new tools and some for $100/pair new. That’s the way batteries should be. Tha’s about a third of my batteries. Yes I have somewhere near 75 batteries across many platforms.
Companies with $200-300 single batteries can suck it.
So far no issues with a large amount of Hitachi 3ah 18V, Bosch 18V, M12, M18, Ryobi batteries (some going back 12-15 years), Metabo/Mafell 18V been good so far, basic 20V Dewalts have been fine.
A few Bosch 12V failures, Metabo HPT 36V failure
I have no interest with constant battery changes. I want bulletproof workhorse batteries, not marketing princesses.
Goodie
Bulletproof matters to me more than marketing numbers, also. I’ve had no Metabo HPT battery failures (though I’ve heard of them), I had a couple Bosch 12v battery failures. Those weren’t fun, but at least they are inexpensive.
Jared
I understand the sentiment. “Companies with $200-$300 batteries” include Makita though, with their XGT packs.
Those expensive batteries exist because they allow for tools that need more power. The other companies also have affordable 18650 battery packs – it’s just that they sell packs with more rows of 18650s, or 27100, tabless and pouch cells for when the need arises too.
It’s kind of like saying “I’ll only drive passenger cars because they’re always reliable, get great fuel economy and are affordable”. That makes sense… until you need to move excavator or shipping container down the road.
Saulac
Can pouch and tabless handle higher charging current? If yes, do the benefit or require different chargers? Does tabless come to flashlights yet?
Stuart
Pouch? Yes. Tabless? Probably, but it hasn’t been confirmed yet. Milwaukee’s dual port SuperCharger, released last year, might have been designed to deliver a faster charging rate with all Forge batteries regardless of cell format.
The same principles that allow for faster power drain often also allow for faster charging.
I don’t know of any flashlight makers who have leveraged tabless 21700 cells.
With flashlights, it’s important for the battery to be kept cool, but emitter thermal dissipation is the major engineer obstacle. For many high-powered models, the entire flashlight body serves as a heatsink.
JR Ramos
None of the flashlight makers seem interested in it, but honestly most of these are pretty small time and not exactly seeking out cutting edge tech. It took *forever* to convince a couple of them to give 21700 a try, but once they did and saw success a whole bunch of others followed. But as Stuart said, the heat is the issue and right now some of the super mega monster lights can’t even deal with the current delivery that good plain cells provide (not even with accessory blower fans attached) so there’s no real benefit to trying tabless cells – at least not in any sort of conventional flashlight configuration. Several enthusiasts have been curious about it and no doubt someone will buy a tool battery and gut it at some point…can’t see it doing much for flashlights, though. A few did try out the now-defunct larger 26800 cells, which were really nice, and then Lumintop and maybe a couple others gave the extra large cells a try – probably won’t last long in the market. But I think if tabless will be tried, it will be by enthusiasts. There’s no real reason for a manufacturer to pursue it or market it – same canister sizes, no alterations to host designs. I don’t think any add-on protection or charging boards would even need to be redesigned.
Even with cells capable of taking high current fast charges, it’s still better to charge them slower/cooler, for lifespan. That’s just as true for the high drain cells we have now as it is for standard duty cells. Sometimes it’s worth it, though, and you just eat the expense/replacements a bit earlier but enjoy more productivity/profit in the meantime.
Nathan
Something barely talked about are the discharge profile and charge profile. Not rate. Profile or rate over time .
A lot of people focus on drills but think of other tools and how they use the battery too. Take a circ saw. Start of the cut is typically low. But full blade in and another foot of material to go and now it would be nice if that batter after draining a few seconds already could still pull out 80amps for that tough section of OSB stack. Not the same profile for drilling. Or what about a slow continuous pull like a mower or a blower. Vs say a recip. And then charging. It’s possible that pouch cells will put put more and be more flexible in profiles. But it doesn’t really have the thermals to live all day at high draw in a circular saw on a job site. Works great all day in a hammer drill or impact driver…. Circ saw needs more overall runtime to do one battery all day and it needs more cooling enter a cylindrical cell pack and enter tabless.
Charging is a whole other thing but similar. At 8plus amp hours or 144 watt hours might produce too much heat to charge at x amps in rapid charger. That might be too long for a pouch to take the heat without making a bigger pouch. So enter cylindrical cell. Also with pouch I see no reason other than price points to have another 18650 cell. Bring on 22800
CMF
There are a lot of comments, many are quite long, and despite all the reasoning, at the end of the day…for me, all I care about is use (as in ease of use), reliability and getting the job done.
There was a big 50% off sale on Flex tools here, so I splurged and got the 7 1/4 saw to get the 10 ah stacked lithium. It cost me less for this kit, than for just the battery + I got the saw and the rapid charger. (Flex has a Fast 160 watt, Rapid 280 watt and Super 550watt charger). Also got 2 vacuums, the stacked drill/impact kit, screw gun with magazine plus a couple of extra batteries. Without the 50% off, I find FLEX is expensive.
Anyway, this 10 ah battery is a brick! I am one of those who does not always believe bigger is better.
I just recently was cutting 1/2″ angle iron. I have some corded grinders I could have used but chose my Matabo LTX (not HPT) grinder. I have a mix of 9 batteries, ranging in 2.6, 3, 4 and 5.2 ah batteries. With a couple of chargers going, I made many cuts, used 4 cutting discs and didn’t even go through all 9 batteries.
With a FLEX grinder, which I do not own, and this 10 ah (+ 2 x 6 stacked + 2 x 3.5 stacked and single 5 ah battery) I might have done almost all the cuts with the 10, maybe needed a 6 also…which is also big and heavy. I was very happy with the Metabo and it’s less weighty batteries.
I have Makita LXT with 3, 4, and 5 ah batteries. Be it single battery or some of my 2 x 18v tools, I have never worked on jobs that I wished I had a bigger battery. They haven’t done much in years for LXT batteries, but personally I don’t need or care for more. What I have never lets me down.
I have at times worked in teams of 3-4, where 1 person is just driving screws, 1 just making cuts, while others do measuring and bringing material around. The Makita chargers are vey fast and although we could out pace the charger, not by much. with a couple of extra batteries, we could work all day without issue.
I have M18 and Dewalt 20 & 60v batteries and tools. I find it is next to impossible to deplete all batteries and have down time because batteries are recharging.
Stuart made a comment about how reps from the brands stated that stacked don’t do as well over 5-6 ah. yet a couple of years ago, they were all the rage. in 1-2 years they will possibly find some issue with tabless, while something new may be coming out that is even better.
Like in computer stuff and other tech fields, early adopters are usually the ones that find the true limits and issues with the latest tech.
There was a time that having the latest and greatest was a necessity. I believe that battery tech as with PC’s, the latest and greatest is nice, but can easily be done without.
Stuart
Only (1) brand has ever launched a stacked pouch cell battery greater than 6Ah so far. Every other brand – Bosch, Dewalt, Makita, Milwaukee are going with tabless cells. Meaning, stacked pouch batteries were never “all the rage.”
CMF
A few years ago, just before Dewalt introduced their 1.7 ah batteries, a few years back, there sure was a lot of talk about how these were the future.
Stuart
Dewalt PowerStack was announced in October 2021, and Flex Stacked Lithium more than a month later in November.
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/dewalt-powerstack-battery/%3C/a%3E%3Cbr /> https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/flex-stacked-lithium-power-tool-battery/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
No brands discussed pouch cells prior to that (except for CAT and their “Graphene” battery).
There was no talk about these being the future. Maybe there was speculation, but I don’t recall anyone having any serious conversations about it.
There was often complaints about why cordless power tool makers couldn’t adopt LiPo batteries such as those used for RC cards, but the technology is different.
There were hints that pouch cells were coming, but they were buried and you had to know where to look to find news snippets. e.g. https://www.axios.com/2019/12/19/amionx-battery-stanley-black-decker-first-named-customer
Once PowerStack was announced, *then* there was a lot of talk, discussions about 12V-class and FlexVolt-class batteries, and so forth, but there was ZERO indication that was where the industry was headed.
MM
I was just re-reading an old article and I came across a post from Big Richard that identifies another large pouch cell battery that is currently on the market: Stihl AP 500 S. 36V 9.4ah
I agree they were never all the rage, but I wanted to throw out this new data point.
Stuart
His exact comment was “Stihl also has a new 9.4Ah AP 500 S battery that uses pouch cells.”
The comment was made in reply to a post about Dewalt’s PowerStack battery. https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/dewalt-powerstack-battery-luxury-opinion/#comment-1429991%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
MM
Yes, that’s the one. Now we have two data points for pouch cells larger than 6ah on the market currently: this Stihl, and the Flex. I wonder if there are any others that slipped under the radar?
Stuart
It’s semantics, but Stihl isn’t a cordless power tool brand, it’s an equipment brand.
Higher voltage OPE systems typically benefit from a much higher cell count than cordless power tool batteries.
Cordless power tool brands are in the OPE space, and some OPE brands are in the power tool space, but under a broad black and white lens, Stihl isn’t a direct competitor to any of the brands we’re talking about here.
One of the reasons brands are moving to tabless is to better compete with higher cell-count cordless OPE systems.
Let’s call it 1.5 examples. I don’t think Stihl belongs in this conversation – no OPE-dedicated brands are included in the discussion above – but it’s not completely irrelevant.
MM
I don’t think it makes sense to include Stihl in these lists either, I’m not calling for them to be added to the “tool leader” list.
However, the discussion took a turn away from listing which companies are battery leaders to debating the feasibility of large pouch-cell batteries. And in that context Stihl’s battery absolutely is relevant.
CMF
Oh, also forgot to add; my 2 kits had the middle charger, the 280 watt charger, which I was kind of happy. Like others have mentioned, something like the 550 watt super charger (or any super rapid chargers) on big batteries, might create to much heat build up. I know the chargers have fans but still, regular or fast chargers are fine for me. Super duper may cause more problem than benefit.
MM
This is a topic I’d love to read some good research on. I’ve heard the claim here and there that people are worried about using fast chargers for fear they could damage the batteries, but I’ve never seen any information to back up the claim one way or the other. Stuart, do you think this might make a good article for Toolguyd? I’m sure with your contacts you can hear straight from the horse’s mouth what the various companies have to say about the safety of using their fast chargers.
I had always assumed this was a non-issue because the chargers are capable of regulating the amount of power going to the packs and therefore it wouldn’t make sense they could output power at an unsafe level. Most chargers also seem able to detect the temperature of the packs and slow charging if the pack is too hot or too cold–more reason to think the chargers are doing a good job protecting the battery. But I’d love to know if anyone really tested this or not.
Stuart
I have asked that question multiple times, and have always been told that fast charging won’t degrade battery life.
I think the answer is really about whether it *noticeably* degrades battery life.
Milwaukee’s faster chargers require a handshake from the battery, and will only fast-charge batteries that can handle the higher current.
Many brands’ batteries also have dual charging rates, one rate to get the battery to a high level of charge, such as 80%, and a slower rate to get it to 100%.
Personally, I don’t use a fast charger unless I need quicker turnaround. But I also do like faster multi-battery chargers because they require fewer trips and less attention when I need to charge more than 1 or 2 batteries.
Basically, it has been insisted to me multiple times that fast charging won’t harm power tool batteries.
I’ve covered this a few times now.
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/do-fast-chargers-damage-power-tool-batteries/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/milwaukee-cordless-power-tool-battery-charging-rates-longevity/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
JR Ramos
Technically, all charging and especially higher rates of charging do in fact shorten the life and capacity of cells – all cells. But as Stuart said, what “they” are telling consumers is that it “probably” won’t amount to much on their end. But yes, it does negatively (comparatively) affect the cells vs. slower charging/less heat. It’s already well researched by every manufacturer and is spelled out pretty plainly in their white sheets (and duplicated by individual testers who often cover a wider gamut of currents and give a clearer picture of end use scenarios that the cell manufacturers don’t usually provide in the sheets).
Every charge cycle degrades the pixies a little…that’s why we have a finite lifespan on the cells and why we see reduced capacity after so many charges even before we’re close to that average charge-cycle lifespan where the pixes are pretty much on life support.
There is actually some pretty new research showing a charging approach that is much gentler and may actually minimize or eliminate this loss of pixies during charging, but it remains to be seen whether it scales to where we need it, is commercially viable, or will ever end up in charging algorithms burned onto chips. It seems like it should hold a lot of promise but the reality of IP and business and such means a lot of things just stay in the laboratories forever.
Operating at higher temperatures but *especially* charging at higher temperatures exponentially increases this damage. Some cells do it better than others, but usually with a tradeoff somewhere.
A high drain cell can handle higher charging currents as well as current loads, so we get to enjoy performance and fast chargers, but yeah, it’s reducing the pixies every time and there’s just no way around that no matter what some marketing department wants to say. But if you see a reduction to about 80% capacity after 300 cycles and it’s still putting out what you need, is that ok? It’ll start to degrade more rapidly after that typical graph point but most people think it’s acceptable (moreso in lower current applications). If a cell/pack can take that kind of abuse on both ends for even more cycles, hey that’s even better but we still aren’t defying physics. Treat it more gently and you’ll see closer to 500 or more cycles before you reach that 80%. General results/numbers here but it holds true, varies by scenario and cell type of course.
On the flip side there are some surprisingly high capacity cells available more recently (like impressive gains over what has been the peak for some time) that introduce silicon into the cell. Normally when capacity is increased it comes with the tradeoff of not being able to handle higher currents, but this newer type has given both an increase in mAh and double-ish the current capacity. Great, right! Well, the tradeoff is they fall on their face after a pretty short time. Where most cells go that 300ish cycles showing 80% degradation, these are lucky to get to 200 cycles where they reach around 60%.
It’s always a balance of what we want, but we still can’t have it all. Heat is still the enemy and while they have been extremely clever in toying with different sauce mixes and cathode materials and such and such, we’re close to peaking out…which is why people started looking at construction (e.g. tabless) and other sources like the pouch cells.
Even with a good BMS to charge smarter, the heat from higher currents will certainly degrade things faster, no way around it. Dumber packs and/or dumber chargers make it happen faster still and for whatever reason we still have a lot of both. Crazy, since these circuits are not novel or expensive to implement (at this point R&D on charging should be minimal) but battery sales are exceptionally big profit for the manufacturers, right or wrong. So while customers are happy enough with current performance and lifespan, the manufacturers probably don’t feel the need to cut into profits by offering designs that last as long as they can and are designed with high quality electronics design. That isn’t to say that what we have now is junk, but gosh for what they charge and what’s actually in there…geez. Same with packs but more going on there.
CMF
Even the M18 Forge, when introduced, the conversation was on when there would be a 12 ah. Then slowly the conversation changed to maybe tabless.
Stuart
That is incorrect.
I spoke to product managers about the M18 Forge 6Ah battery, and at the same time we talked about MX Fuel Forge and how it’s being built with tabless cells.
A 12Ah was teased, and when I asked about the battery cell technology, I was told that tabless cells, similar to those used in the new MX Fuel batteries, would be used and NOT pouch cells.
There was ZERO talk about the 12Ah potentially having pouch cells; Milwaukee immediately said that it would feature tabless cells, with the reason being BETTER THERMAL PERFORMANCE.
It wasn’t “maybe” tabless, it was “definitely tabless” because pouch cells were not as well-suited for higher capacity batteries.
Andrew
Metabo have a 4ah and 8ah with tab less cells coming in the next few months
Stuart
I haven’t heard or seen anything about this yet.