Festool Tools are on sale at a bunch of retailers right now, and it feels really weird.
If there’s one thing to know about shopping for Festool tools, it’s that they NEVER go on sale. They are never discounted. There are never any promos. Or at least that sums up my long-term experiences with the brand.
I have seen some limited exceptions to this. Festool (sometimes?) has bundle promos, where you can save a little money if you buy certain tools with a dust extractor vacuum.
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Other times, they have “special edition” bundles that save you a little bit of money on a specifically curated selections of tools.
A few years ago, they had a special super-low-priced sander at an aggressively low price.
I posted about a Festool flash sale yesterday, where Festool’s flagship products, new products like their cordless table saw, and a whole lot of other tools and accessories were on sale for a whopping 15% off.
My reaction turned from “yeah, this is great!” to “oh no, what’s going on with Festool?”
Since when do Festool Domino joiners, track saws, table saws, miter saws, sanders, and dust extractors go on sale?!
I’m not seeing anything else similar to the ongoing “15% off everything in-stock” sale, but there are still savings to be found.
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Tool Nut’s not the only other retailer with Festool discounts right now. A reader (thank you, Fred!) found similar at Beaver Tools and US Tool and Fastener.
Rockler also has a lot of Festool tools on sale, such as on a Carvex jig saw.
I’m starting to be very concerned by this.
Ohio Power Tool’s flash sale is still ongoing, although a lot of the tool offerings have been picked clean.
At the time of this posting, they still have 15% off a Festool router, cordless track saw kit, track saw and impact driver combo kit, another track saw kit, Planex drywall sander, the brand new cordless reciprocating saw kit, and a whole lot of saw blades and accessories.
I still have a Festool finish sander on my personal wishlist, but now that they’re running sales and discounts, I’ll wait for the next price drop. (I wasn’t fast enough – I checked OPT’s site after I posted about the sale, and the sander I wanted sold out.)
Milwaukee’s new M18 Fuel cordless 5″ ROS sander – I tested it last week at their Pipeline event – left me with a very positive first impression. I’m not into Festool’s 18V cordless system or incompatible battery-powered sanders, and might hold off until either the corded model goes on sale, or Milwaukee launches a 1/4 sheet version of their new ROS.
I was also thinking about picking up a tool or two to review on ToolGuyd’s dime, as Festool hasn’t sent us any test samples for a couple of years, but decided against that as well. If Festool is permitting sales and price drops at authorized dealers, what does that say about user demand?
We caught a Festool USA corporate shill leaving comments here in the past – maybe they can chime in about what’s motivating these sales and discounts.
Russ
My thought yesterday was Ohio Power Tool might be getting rid of their Festool stuff to focus on other brands. Not sure what to think with multiple retailers following suit. Perhaps we are seeing a purge in inventory because of product changes?
Stuart
Retailers have in-stock conditions on a lot of sales to avoid over-selling quantities they and tool brands might not be able to fulfill in a timely manner.
When’s the last time you were able to order a tool promo on backorder from Home Depot?
Tool Nut has an in-stock-only deal on Dewalt today. It’s not uncommon.
A lot of OPT’s deals are and were on new SKUs that were new to market. Other deal items look to be active SKUs. That’s what makes this all so peculiar and even concerning.
Brandon
Maybe they signed some exclusivity deal with a retailer and are trying to purge inventory.
Jordan G
My question is what’s the answer for the Kapex?
What other miter saw offers what the kapex does?
Aside from the domino a lot of other brands have caught up on most tools in their lineup.
William
The main selling point of Festool is that it’s very low dust and all in the same system. Nearly every brand has a rolling tool box system, many of which overlap with Festool. The tracksaws are great, the dominos are great, the sanders are very good (but there’s other companies that make very good sanders) the jig saw is good (but it’s still a jig saw).
I don’t think Festool is going anywhere but I haven’t considered buying a Festool in several years. Other brands just meet my needs better as a cabinet maker. I own the Dominos and some now unused sanders and a dust extractor.
Festool is going to be like Hilti, serving a small niche market with specific solutions to specific problems. Every several years they invent a Domino, Conturo edgbander, HKC tracksaw, etc. to keep the relevant.
Stuart
Festool was already serving a niche market with specific solutions to specific problems.
I’ve got the same problem as you. I think that Milwaukee’s new cordless sanders are going to all but permanently bench my Festool sander, except for larger jobs (at least until Milwaukee also has a 6″). My Festool track saw has already been benched.
I’ve been using my Makita cordless dust collector more than my Festool corded, and I’m eagerly anticipating the new Milwaukee cordless extractor.
I strongly considered Festool’s cordless extractor, but their small one is said to have horrible runtime and is limited to compact batteries, and their larger one doesn’t look good enough to justify buying into Festool’s 18V line.
Festool’s tried to expand, but who’s buying a $600 cordless reciprocating saw from a company known for their finish tools?
Jronman
Milwaukee still lacks something to compete with any of the 3 Rotex sanders. The new m18 woodworking sanders seem to be trying to compete with the ETS EC sanders.
Stuart
For now…
Goodie
I am interested in seeing a review on the Milwaukee sander to understand why you think the Milwaukee is equal to/better than the Festool sandwrs. The three sander manufacturers that come to mind as “high quality” to me are 1) Mirka 2) Festool and 3) 3Ms new sanders. I haven’t heard much about Milwaukee and do not (as of yet) consider them competitive with the above three sanders. You’re the only tool writer/influencer/reviewer who has mentioned Milwaukee as a competitive choice for sanders, so I am very interested in your opinion.
Stuart
I was impressed with its performance, control, and feel, and am optimistic it’ll be my next go-to.
My Festool has been good – and I like it better than their newer lower profile sander – but I keep finding myself using cordless tools more and more.
I have looked at Mirka and 3M for shorter AC-powered sanders. Mirka is pricey but seems very well-regarded. 3M seems to have naysayers – every time I check there are a couple of reviews that give me doubts.
On prep work, I often have larger pieces that I take outside and sand on a portable workbench. Dust collection is important, but less crucial than indoors.
On finish work, I often have to move all around a frame, box, or similar, and I feel cordless has a lot of benefits there.
I have a suite of air nailers I bought. They’re fantastic. They’re smaller and lighter than cordless, and with zero performance compromises. But cordless doesn’t require me to drag out an air compressor, fill up the tank, and then drain it of air and moisture when done. One of these days I’ll add a shop air compressor, but I haven’t had the space to really consider that yet.
It’s not that I think or hope the Milwaukee will be better, but that I think it could be *better for me*.
The 3″ detail sander also felt awesome. It’s mean for spot sanding, but I can see myself using it for smaller projects.
The best and worst part of Festool sanders is the proprietary abrasive sheets.
I haven’t found the sanding pattern to be any better or more uniform than other leading brands.
The main benefits for me was its dust collection. There are also customizations, such as replacement pads. I bought a firmer pad, thinking it would be better for certain tasks without rounding corners. It’s still in its plastic clamshell packaging.
I almost bought a Festool rectangular or triangular sander so many times, but I just can’t. The brand has lost a lot of appeal to me, aside from cordless proving to be increasingly more convenient.
With new the new breed of cordless full-size routers, I might never use an AC router again, at least not handheld; I still have a Bosch/Craftsman attached to my router table.
I never seriously considered Festool’s hybrid corded/cordless sanders. They seem to have compromised designs, and I can’t get over having yet another battery system that only works with one or two tools.
fred
My newest sander is a Mirka. Smooth, quiet, very low vibration and great dust collection – but I have not compared it to other models or brands to see if they are better:
Acme has it for 10% off right now:
https://www.acmetools.com/mirka-deros-625x-cv-150mm-vacuum-orbit-sander-with-case-mid62520caus/842028070005.html
Goodie
I appreciate your response. You and I have different use cases. I generally (but not exclusively) sand projects in my shop with dust extraction. I appreciate my ETS125ECs dust extraction there. I really like the low profile form factor for the ergonomics. Certainly a personal taste.
Since I am always using dust extraction, I like the corded sanders fine. I typically sand for 30-45 minutes at a time and I don’t see cordless as an asset there.
Unless Milwaukee can produce a sander with the low vibration of Festool/Mirka and with equal dust collectio, they’re a non-starter for me. I have memories of my hand falling asleep from a (well regarded at the time) Porter Cable ROS. And the quality I get from sanding with dust extraction is much higher than setups without it. I use dust extraction even when I am working outside.
As far as the price comparison between Mirka, 3M and Festool, I think the Festool sandwrs are actually the value leaders amongst those three.
Karlen
Different use cases for sure. I can see the benefits of the milwaukee new sander for work sites, and would consider upgrading my dewalt cordless down line with it. However, I think in my garage woodworking shop I have absolutely no reason for a cordless sander 99% of the time. I value the highly efficient dust extraction much more working in a space attached to my house and not breathing those particles in or making a mess. And since that means I have a dust hose, it makes no difference to have a cord, and then I don’t have to worry about batteries either. It’s hard to say without experiencing it, but from the sanders I have used the festool or like ones (3m or the yellow one I don’t remember the name of) also are much more ergonomic and less fatiging for long duration use, which would be nice to see milwaukee’s try at that.
A 6″ sander also has vastly more surface area than a 5″, over 30%, which means over 30% less time sanding than doing other things I want to do. A 6″ is also more stable meaning for larger work pieces it is easier to keep the surface consistent/ flat, very important for tables to cutting boards and everything in between.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve got a cordless dewalt for those times I need battery powered 5″ sander, but I rarely ever reach for it.
Festool sanders (or atleast the ec ones) are hook and look in standard 5 and 6 inch sizes. I exclusively use the 3m extract sand paper as it out performs nearly everything else on the market, including festool own, and it is a mesh so hole pattern does not matter. I believe you can get it in sheets for the other 1/4 sheet or triangle sizes as well and just cut it down.
Goodie
I know it’s been a bit since this posted, but I did want to add that the Festool sanders also allow you to swap pads on sizes. You can put a 6inch pad on a 5 inch sander for the increased surface area. That’s a pretty nice feature. I am not very brand loyal, as I have a pretty eclectic mix of Bosch, Metabo HPT, Makita, and DeWalt. I also have Greenworks 80v (great sale at COSTCO a few years ago) and Ryobi 40v for OPE. I generally regard cordless tools as “disposable” – they will need to be replaced when new battery tech obsolesces them. I have plenty of older corded stuff that I don’t consider obsolete.
Bonnie
The Hilti comparison is excellent. Festool will probably remain the preferred choice for finish carpentry and work done inside a furnished home, regardless of any new/novel tools.
Xrh07
It’s not because Hilti actually tries to create a comprehensive tool system for fairly broad userbases and offer product services/support to at least try to justify their higher price point. While Festool product support isn’t doing anything better than the big 3 , especially in core tools.
And Hilti is hardly a niche company with near 20x the revenue of Festool. SBD is a bit over 2.5x as big in revenue and that’s a giant conglomerate of brands with their hands in everything from tools to kitchen appliances.
Hiltis probably doing a lot better in concrete relative to Festool in finish carpentry. Hilti is trying not to become as irrelevant as Festool mostly is already. The hottest market segment is power tools and Nuron is a largely good attempt. Festool is falling on its face by comparison and their mediocre tool storage is losing what little goodwill it has left and they’ll be down to the handful of niche solutions nobody else makes yet.
William
I’ve always said Festool is a lot like Apple too. They have a high quality product that performs consistently as it should BUT most of the items are proprietary. Festool works better in the Festool Universe. Likewise, iPhone works better when you also have a Mac and Apple Watch. Everything on Apple takes an adapter.
Harrison
Nah, Milwaukee is the Apple of the tool world.
Incredibly wealthy American brand, manufactured overseas, with a product line that dominates half the American market. (iPhone)
Marketing is job#1 and always on point. Pipeline is modelled after WWDC and other Apple product events.
Not always the best performing product (heat issues) but sheer force of R&D is overcoming those limitations. (Apple silicon, Milwaukee’s new motor tech)
Festool is like some super niche enterprise computing brand that most normal people have never heard of.
Goodie
LOL. My main beef with Milwaukee. Apple, and Tesla is the marketing. Related, but different, is my beef with Apple, Tesla, and Festool for the sort of faux “exclusivity” that some customers pull when they buy the products. “Mine’s the best because [Apple, Tesla, Festool] told me it was the best.”
Then there’s truly high end-upscale stuff like Lucid and Mafell that are in such a different market that they don’t really enter the conversation. Sadly, this doesn’t really exist in computers anymore, but Sun Microsystems and SGI are the ones that I miss that used to.
JeffS
Sawstop, which I believe is owned by the same parent company of Festool, is advertising discounts on some of their tablesaws.
Kilroy
When did Festool’s parent company’s fiscal quarter end?
If it ended recently, such as on June 30 (or will end soon), I wouldn’t be surprised if Festool pushed a bunch of inventory to retailers (to try to goose their own sales/inventory numbers and make the execs’ bonus targets and/or the numbers that the owners expect) before the end of the quarter, with the implicit understanding that the retailers would be able to discount the product without fear of getting in trouble with Festool.
It’s stupid, but this type of short-term thinking driving sales pushes happens all the time with companies trying to game their financials and make numbers. Anytime I see an unexpected/unnecessary sales push near the end of a fiscal period, this type of behavior is the first thing I suspect.
blocky
Thank you. Same thinking here.
Robert
Kilroy, that’s plausible, but why now? Why not other end of quarters?
As Stuart noted Festool almost never has meaningful sales.
I was about to spring for the CT48 dust extractor at Ohio Power Tools, but it was sold out when I got to doing it.
Saulac
Joint them if you cannot beat them. Festool is trying this as Milwaukee is about to make them irrelevant. I said that because Festool is something you own to show that you have made it. Unfortunately these days, you can just go ALL Red.
Stuart
I scrounged and saved and bought my first Festool tools because I needed a track saw and excellent portable dust collection that no other brands had been achieving.
Some treat Festool tools as status items, similar to Woodpeckers tools, Snap-on, and so forth, but I think those are still fringe exceptions.
fred
My first intro to Festool was spying them on TOH – with Tom Silva an obvious fan. The only time that I’ve seen a Conturo in use was on TOH.
Like you I purchased a TS55 track saw (use mine with a Fein dust extractor) because it was what I thought was the best alternative at the time. That was over 10 years ago. Today there are many other choices. The last track saws that I purchased as gifts were cordless Mafell models (91B302 and 91B702) for recipients with different use cases. I also bought a Makita GPS01Z. Today, I see no compelling reason to select a cordless Festool track saw over its several competitors when comparing price and features and considering battery platform.
My other Festool purchase – a Domino XL 700 machine – is somewhat different. Bought in 2013 it has become a mainstay of much joinery for me. With aftermarket cutters, jigs and accessories I’ve used it with the entire range of domino sizes and have not seen the need for having the smaller 500 machine (although at a substantially discounted price I might be tempted.) I expect that once Festool’s patent run out there may be others who will try to produce equivalent or more highly featured machines of a similar nature. This may be challenging to get it right – because there is precision needed to locate and repeatedly bore close tolerance holes for loose tenons for well-fitting joints.
Having a stable of sanders from old Porter Cable workhorses to more modern ones from Bosch, Makita, Mirka and Metabo – I never felt the need for a Festool. But I recognized their appeal based on good integration with dust extraction. My painting contractor for one, swears by Festool sanders – with several variants on each of his trucks.
Prognosticating about Fastool’s future, I see them losing ground. The niches that they once dominated seem to be eroding as other manufacturers are catching up in areas of ergonomics and integration of primary tools with dust extraction. Their foray into cordless tools was sort of “a day late and a dollar short”. Their selection of building-trade tools like a cordless reciprocating saw seemed to be a weak (and probably unsuccessful) attempt to broaden their appeal. If they can remain profitable in a niche the size of Mafell – or even shrinking (like a Lamello) they may be OK. But if the trajectory that they have set needs sales volumes to compete with Milwaukee or Dewalt (or even Makita, Metabo or Metabo-HPT) then I don’t see how that will survive in the long run.
Goodie
My friends who work at Rockler and Woodcraft make a LOT of Festool sales on PLANEX sanders (painting and drywall) and dust extractors to painters and contractors. The ROTEX sanders and dust extractors are also big sellers to flooring guys. DOMINO joiners are also big sellers to cabinet shops.
Karlen
Festool still absolutely dominates in these areas for sure! I know some contractors that have other platforms for their battery tools, but have these exact tools because they are the best out there which makes their job quicker, easier, cleaner, and more professional. At the end of the day that makes them more profit and business, even if they are priced higher up front.
Jronman
The issue with Milwaukee is the prices are getting crazy. They are very close or even exceed Festool in some cases. Packout is as expensive or in some cases more than Systainers. Many of the specialty tools that set Milwaukee apart from many others are thousands of dollars. A good example on how close the prices are is the bare tool m18 drill is only $10 behind the Festool and the Festool also comes in a Systainer. Remove the Systainer and the price might even be less than the Milwaukee.
Stuart
Systainers are made of thin plastic. Packout are larger, stronger, and more durable, and often incorporate more components, such as side rails, ball bearing drawer slides, and metal latches.
For the M18 drills, don’t look are bare-tool prices, the kit prices are better for price comparison.
With Festool, you’re buying a Systainer whether you want it or not.
When making comparisons, you need to look very closely what you get for the money.
If you’re not careful, you can probably make Festool look like a better value than any brand, including Ryobi.
Saulac
Good comparison between Systainers and the modular tool storage systems. I recently look again into Systainers and I found a few points that I appreciate: to reduce plastic usage by replacing the blow mold cases, which rarely used after purchasing, the single latch for both locking the lid and latching to other box (very clever from engineering standpoint), standardization adopted by various brands (very good engineering, but not an US thing). As more and more US trade persons transitioning from trucks to vans, I believe rugged storage will become less important. I want to try Systainers.
Joe
I hate systainers with such an unbridled passion. Cheap pieces of junk that turn a horrifying yellow when exposed to sun.
Karlen
You need to look at the market too though for systaners vs packout. Milwaukee and hence it’s Packout is generally for and marketed to rough work, construction, trade work and smaller industrial use. where things get abused very easily.
Festool and it’s systaners are geared towards and marketed to finish work such as carpentry when most of that rough work is done, or in controlled environments like shops and work being done in currently lived in locations. Much less abuse in these scenarios. The systaners at that point are for clean organization, not to throw your crap in and haull it around an active construction site.
I love my packout stuff for my trade oriented work at my full time job. I also very much appreciate my currently very small stock of systaners in my side woodworking business at home. For the most part, I would not want to mix the two nor would it make sense to, I would not use the benefits of either at the other job.
You can make the value skewed for anything, just depends what you are looking to accomplish.
Xrh07
Festool warranty is 3 years and they also have an addiction to overpriced parts assemblies like Milwaukee. So user repair for Festool ends up being even worse in actuality since they’ll tell you to kick rocks 2 years sooner.
Milwaukee runs tons of aggressive promos anyways. You can get Fuel drill, driver and 2x 5.0s from HD for $250 or less multiple times every year. My set purchased a month ago cost me $240 after tax after returning an 8.0. All my Milwaukee stuff is purchased new and I pay no where close to full retail. Worst case I have to return extras I don’t want. But I’m not arguing with a Fuel drill/driver set+ 2x 5.0s AND a $350 normal priced framing nailer for $400 on HD promotion that I got off HD 2 years ago…
15% off sales are such small discounts I won’t even touch unless it’s on niche products that never go on sale. And if Festools have no sales and a worse product support regimen the value isn’t there.
Packout is overpriced in a lot of ways. But it’s also not cheaply made plastic like Festool. Festool Systainers are ABS and ABS is waywaywayay worse than polypropylene. Do enough with plastic repair and you’ll quickly figure out what’s best for what. And for TOOLS ABS is basically bottom of the barrel. It’s Lego toy plastic, or for sewer pipe.
The car parts that break first have ABS blends in them too. Cheap $20 power tools battery flashlights from DeWalt and Makita and most everyone else are usually using ABS and they are so far away from the regular tools in durability that use straight PC or PA6/GF aka Nylon.
Peter
I have systainers that are 10+ years old and have not managed to break a single one.
I managed to break a latch on a Bosch l-boxx but I exceeded the weight limit.
That is out of about 30 boxes.
Their boxes are also not meant to be out in the weather like pack out etc..
When I got my first systainer a long time ago I was a bit skeptical similar to the sortimo boxes because they are thinner.
But they held up to the abuse to and from job sites at least how I do it.
Saulac
I had a Dewalt drawer box turned useless when one latch broke. I have TB Stack Tech drawer boxes now with very nice but very complex plastic latches. I know the thing will become useless when those complex latches broke. We have not really talked about reliability and repairability of modular tool storage systems yet, despite their value.
fred
I have 37 modular plastic toolboxes. Only 2 are Packout. Some are 12 years old. None have failed yet – but they mostly are stacked and get rolled around on their respective dollies in the shop. 7 are Bosch – that I like the least based on their latches. 3 are Metabo and they came with inside fittings for the tools that came with them. My 3 Lamello ones were similarly acquired. I also have 4 from Makita – and find their latch system a bit annoying for my fat fingers. The rest all seem to come from Tanos with varying labels/color schemes (3 BenchDogTools, 8 Festool, 4 Tanos, 3 UJK). None of them could be called rugged compared to some of my old oak or metal machinist chests – but they are way more transportable and stack a whole lot better because of their consistent geometry and latching.
Farkleberry
How much have Festool’s prices gone up, just post Covid? I’m guessing at least 15%. The supply chain and shipping issues are largely gone. The remote working rich who were stuck at home watched all the YouTube videos and bought all the Festool gear, and may or may not have actually built the furniture or remodeled the house.
Festool probably had a decision to make. Stick to their traditional “We’re so great our tools never go on sale” stance or lower their inflated prices to remain more competitive. Other companies have lowered MAPs quietly or with an explanation of softening demand and costs (OPE). The earnings period push or exchange rates could be it as well.
I just don’t see what’s unique at this point, aside from Domino and the quick change power cords. Hopefully, competitors already have some Dominos waiting in the wings for patent expiration, and corded anything is obsolete to many. I personally find that system compelling, as you can quickly change out tools to your DC and not have to worry about batteries. Sanders, track saws and anything else when hooking up to DC, I would prefer a Festool type quick change cord, I wish competitors offered them.
I can’t think any other tool (don’t know anything about edge bander though) that is unique or offers better performance and value than competitors. They were true pioneers in handheld precision woodworking equipment and dust control, but what are their advantages today?
What was the last tool to be introduced keeping them relevent, as mentioned above? Will there be a next tool?
MM
I think you’re exactly right about the Domino. It’s one of the main products Festool is currently offering which has little competition, but it won’t be long before that patent expires. All the big players like Makita, Dewalt, Milwaukee, etc, would be fools not to have been working on their version already.
Joe
Coming to a Lowe’s near you: Festool CPT. I kid, but then again, it happened to German companies with a storied history, like Metabo and Flex.
Peter
Did not know Flex was german.
EastBayGrease
Once their patent on the domino expires, they are toast. Everyone has caught up. Plus with all the theft from job sites and work trucks, what pro would pay that premium?
Hon Cho
Festool is a European company and has a huge presence in Europe compared to N. America. I was in France last September and was a bit surprised when I saw a group of workman leaving a worksite in Paris with their carts loaded with Festtool items. In the USA, those workers would be likely carrying red or yellow tools. That said, lots of things may be driving the promotional pricing. If you’re looking for something from Festool and have the money, maybe now’s the time to buy?
Stuart whines about poor information flows from Makita and now Festool. No surprise to me if he calls their representatives “shills” (even if they are). One shouldn’t pander to business PR people, but you get more flies with honey than vinegar.
Steve L
European countries have more rules for workplace safety and dust collection is held in higher regard. Festool to me is a system which minimizes dust in addition to cutting/drilling/sanding. I have Festool track saws, routers, domino and all of those are corded and used when I am indoors in the shop. Systainers are perfect for storage without travel.
Outdoors I use Dewalt and let the chips fly.
Agree Festool appears to be shrinking in importance. Substandard battery system was a critical mistake. Guessing Festool will continue to do well “at home”
Stuart
I’d say I more rant or disclose with transparency in mind.
Shill = fake reviews, trolling, or other types of comments under fake names with an apparent intent to deceive or manipulate readers.
I caught both Makita and Festool doing this.
I’ve noticed commentors from other brands over the years, but as long as they i) disclose their affiliation, or ii) are answering questions in a helpful manner, I don’t mind.
Senior and corporate brand associates should know better.
Naivety and incompetence are forgivable. It takes me a very long time to forget about ill-intent.
Right, so you’re saying I should sweet talk tool brands? To what end? No, thanks.
Harrison
Is this weird in the USA? Up here in Canada Festool retailers seem to run yearly sales, with older models at significant, sometimes aggressive discounts. I bought an RAS for like 55% off in 2020.
Maybe this is a post Milwaukee Pipeline cry for help. I’m not a drinker of the red-koolaid myself, (Seeing is believing that tab-less cells and new motor configurations will really solve the 18v 100+amps overheating problem… ) The reality is, their current designers do not miss. Duty-cycle issues aside, Milwaukee has been nailing the ergonomics, features and functionality of every new release for the last few years, nearing the refinement of products that competitors have otherwise claimed as ‘best in class’ for decades.
End of the day, their tools are always ‘good enough’ for most people, and are available widely. Their marketing and communication is on point.
Other than the Domino, Festool is loosing a lot of their moats. A few years ago if you wanted a decent low profile random orbital sander for your wood shop, it was pneumatic, Mirka or Festool. End of discussion.
Now that Bosch, and soon to be Makita and Milwaukee are putting out usable random orbitals, Festool just lost one of the easiest reasons to get into their product line. Same for the dust extractors- thanks to safety regulations, nearly every brand has some variety of corded or cordless HEPA vacuum solution.
The only saving grace I can think of, is post Covid, Festool’s pricing is no longer such a premium over the competition. If you appreciate good design and European manufacturing, the value proposition is better than its ever been, especially if you actually like Systainers- Which despite their weaknesses, are still VERY handy and have definite advantages for workshop and interior finish work. I started buying into Packout for our rough tools, and while it’s great for leaving out in the rain, I much prefer the light weight, smaller footprint and quick one handed stacking of of Tloc inside a finished space.
Goodie
Greetings, I was just in Canada. You guys are lovely hosts. I missed a chance to look at many tools while there (other than some really cheap stuff at Canadian Tire), but will be back and will keep that in mind.
I respect Packout, but would never pay for it due to being heavy, bulky and unnecessarily rugged for my use case. They’re every bit as expensive as Systainer. In some cases, moreso. Systainer loads easily in a crossover/car/van and is light and portable. I also use them in my shop and find they are effective at keeping me organized. I’ve bought two separately, but generally just use the ones that come with the tools I buy.
Packout makes sense for folks who generally operate out of pickups. In my area, that’s just asking for something to be stolen. Maybe less so in Canada. 😉
Nathan
Could be the first step to releveling of the price structure
Could be get the eoy numbers up
Could be coming revamp of the series
Only unique tool in my mind is the carvex and the domino. And all Bosch needs to do is put a strobe led on their barrel jig and I’d say they compete. And some Dowling jigs and bricks act enough like a domino.
Bob
There are a lot of ways to do floating tenons. What none of the jigs/tools/methods I have tried replicate is the efficiency of a Domino. You’re not paying for making the joint, you’re paying for the speed and accuracy of making lots of such joints.
It is the one Festool tool I own and I have zero regrets. I tried several alternatives first and they were all just a waste of money. My time, even as a hobbyist, is important to me. For those with more time and who enjoy joinery, the Domino is probably an expensive toy they don’t need.
The only other Festool tools I would consider would be track saws and sanders. For track saws, I think the Makita is better value and Mafell more premium. For sanders, I like the 3M options. I would not touch any of the Festool cordless tools considering all the options we have in the US market.
Nathan
The patent on the domino doesn’t have to run out either. I believe they can renew it. If they wish.
fred
I thought that patent extensions usually had to do with giving back some “run time” to the patent holder when there was a delay in granting the patent because of the review process. In my thinking a patent that was applied for in 2000 would be scheduled to run for 20 years until 2020. But if the review ahead of the granting of the patent somehow took 5 years – with the actual patent being issued in 2005 – the applicant (now patent holder) might be able to ask that the patent life be extended to 2025. What I think happens often is that a tool may be covered by one or more patents covering parts or the whole of an initial design and then additional improvements made as the tool is marketed. Festool will likely have patent protection covering features of the original “500” machine and perhaps additional patents for the “700” machine that was issued later. Those patents may have different expiration dates.
MM
Currently patents are 20 years. They can be extended, but like fred wrote “extensions” are for when there is a long delay in bringing a product to market and some of that time is lost. If I remember correctly the maximum length of a patent extension is 5 years. And, perhaps most importantly, the extension can be no longer than the period required to give the product 14 years on the market. Theoretically a patent could be extended to 25 years but only if it took at least 11 years to bring to market.
So, let’s say we have a patent from 2000, it normally would expire in 2020. If we pretend that development took 10 years and the product didn’t actually hit the market until 2010, then we could apply for an extension. The longest possible extension could be 4 years, because that would mean the product would have been on the market from 2010 to 2024.
So if a patent extension is possible it gives you an additional 5 years or a total of 14 years of the product on the market, whichever is shorter.
That said fred is exactly right that Festool might have additional patent(s) covering other features of later machines, and those have their own expiry dates.
sparsparkster
I don’t know if I will ever forgive Milwaukee for that forward/reverse button on top of that, what could have been, a perfect little drill.
I bought another cxs 10 volt after having used the Milwaukee for a while and always having to look which direction it’s going to go. I just can’t get used to it.
I have a lot of Milwaukee stuff but that one just sucks!
Frank? Frank
Wait, are you talking about Red’s little finish drill/driver with the different chuck attachments?
You still haven’t gotten used to a simple control button location/placement change? I know as I get older, I’m becoming increasingly slower to adopt new ways of doing things but repetition of use always beats out learned habits.
Do you just not use it that often? Because it’s a perfect little drill because of its button placement, not in spite of it.
C’mon Old Dog, be open to learning new tricks or go the way of Old Yeller
MM
The buttons on the installation driver bugged me too until I learned the trick: hold it like a drywall screw gun instead of like a normal drill. With the “drywall gun” grip your index finger points forward along the body of the tool and you pull the trigger with your middle finger. With that grip you can easily hit the top buttons with your thumb.
Goodie
ditto – classic Apple approach in their answer to those of us who hate this decision – “You’re holding it wrong”
JR Ramos
“…might hold off until…..or Milwaukee launches a 1/4 sheet version of their new ROS.”
Is that likely to happen anytime soon? It’s only been what, almost two years (or three?) since they released the 1/4 sheet. I have one that I got shortly after release – I don’t love it at all.
Comparing the pics of the new M18 sanders (ignoring the paddle switch) I think I like the Bosch approach better. I got the Bosch ROS and just recently picked up the jitterbug (Lowe’s deal with charger and 4Ah battery for $169). It’ll take a square pad if you don’t like the stock one (and a detail pad also). The pad is great quality, which was a chief concern. But the ergonomics and extremely low vibration are as you’d expect from them – I really like that simple up front power switch, though, and it looks like Milwaukee fell short in their copy by recessing a smaller button (not a fan of their electronic speed controls either). Had I given the Bosch a fair look some years back, I would not have bought the Milwaukee at all (and thank goodness I didn’t buy the M18 ROS…).
The deals on Bosch through Lowes are hard to beat but sometimes straight through Amazon (drop shipped from Bosch often) you get a better price on the bare tool if you don’t need the batt/charger. The sanders are good enough that you could grab that deal and buy into the platform just for that tool only and it would be worth it, imho. Or…do the same with Festool now. Honestly there’s just so little to complain about with the Bosch that I don’t anticipate an updated release from Milwaukee would be of interest or would best it. Bonus is that the Bosch batteries are excellent 21700 packs and much more fairly priced (often at great discounts, too).
Frank? Frank
I loved the low profile and vibration of both of Bosch’s ROS too and use them often at work for sanding down mold on wood framing.
That was until one day when I had my spare batteries in another truck and had to use a coworkers corded Rigid ROS and realized that the reason the Bosch was so quiet and vibration free was because it was so underpowered.
Don’t get me wrong, the Bosch is still my go to because it will fit in between studs far easier than everything else but if I had to sand/remove A LOT of material, I’d rather be not sanding much sooner using literally anything else – including wire brushes.
JR Ramos
I’m not sure I get the desire for a finish sander to remove a lot of material. I’d switch to a grinder with sanding disc (not flap discs but one could…) or a planer maybe. I find the Bosch does pretty well in material removal as long as I’m letting it work and not pushing on it hard, but if pushing then yeah, it’ll lose some oomph. I thought the DeWalt did the same. Some A/C ones do that also, just depends on the design – like many of the older ones with an o-ring belt drive were designed to slip so that excess pressure couldn’t be applied (more so to preserve a good finish quality than the tool itself).
I got a boatload of great old stock DeWalt ceramic discs at Cripe Distributing for cheap-cheap. I slap on the 36g or 40g if I want to bring down rough plywood or saw marks and it’s fast.
Judging by the dust that comes off of exotic hardwoods this Bosch seems to be doing about as well as the corded and air I’ve used. I have a couple small niggles about it but I’ve been extremely pleased with it overall. Looking more closely at the few pics available of the new M18 it doesn’t look like it will be as good, but it’d be nice to see a parts diagram and in-use review. The new M12 6″ models look like they may be winners if they can fend off dust inside and the hall sensor and electronic controls are up to snuff.
JR Ramos
Vibration and noise levels come from good engineering, not power output…although a poorly designed tool with more vibration will definitely get louder with more power. I took a special interest many years ago in all the sanders on the market, having owned and killed several and then trying out that wonderful old PC 330. That was an eye opener so I learned about design and talked a lot with some local service centers. Frankly, and it still seems somewhat true today, DeWalt and Milwaukee and Makita didn’t care about vibration or efficiency with sanders and only tried to half-ass improve as a result of competition (they did a lot better with things like rotary hammers and a few other tools). Even the tightened push with new OSHA standards for vibration only got them to meet those new levels.
fred
I still occasionally use my Rockwell PC Speed Bloc Type 1. It does have one issue in that its counterweight attachment is subject to failure. Naturally, when it fails the sander becomes a hand vibrator.
I also have a Rockwell 505 1/2-sheet sander that I pull out from time to time as it does remarkably well on straight grain sanding on vertical surfaces where weight of a belt sander would be too much for my old muscles. I have a dust collection frame for this machine – but like many of my old sanders I try to confine their use to outdoor projects.
Stuart
If I were them, I’d look to follow up on the upcoming 5″ ROS with an M18 Fuel 1/4 sheet in mid to late 2025.
Most brands have fit this pattern. New 18V 5″ ROS sander and then a 1/4 sheet followed.
JR Ramos
It’d be nice if they did, maybe even move it to this Bosch approach with the battery location, or straight on top like the routers. They’re so incredibly slow to update tools, though, so it would really (nicely) surprise me if they did it for the 1/4 sheet so soon. They need to let it perform well with smaller/medium batteries, though, like the Bosch is so well capable of. Maybe more true for sanders but nobody wants a giant hunk of a battery for tools that need some maneuverability and finesse. The Bosch is truly surprising at how it can use the smaller 4Ah pack…definitely didn’t expect the run time it gives and the whole time it’s able to maintain the speed/power level to boot (21700 cells helping there…).
Nathan
Us utility patent does expire in 20 years so I suppose it’s possible for someone to market one. Wonder who it would be
Who would do it you think. Bosch or ?
fred
IMO it’s not like when the Fein Multimaster came off patent and there was a deluge of new OMTs hitting the market. The Domino machine is a bit more single purpose – but does have applications in both construction and woodworking. Bosch might be a good guess – but it could be Makita too. Or maybe there will be an upmarket version from Mafell or Lamello – but that might compete somewhat with their duo-Doweller and Zeta P2 machines respectively. Getting it right – with the precision needed may also be a challenge. When the Lamello biscuit joiner came off patent – there were many copies – some producing sloppy slots. My old Dewalt biscuit joiner is adequate – but slots are not as precise as those made by my Lamello machine. With a biscuit joiner (other than the Zeta P2) the tool is just spinning and plunging a small saw blade. With the Domino the machine needs to spin, plunge and wiggle (side to side) the boring bit to position and cut a precise mortise.
Farkleberry
Cordless sander negatives:
1. They’re quite weak compared to corded models
2. With a 10 cell batyery , they’re heavy and have terrible balance and center or gravity compared to corded, and especially pneumatic.
3. With a 5 cell battery they’re even weaker, the run time is terrible and balance and COG are still inferior.
Cordless sander neutral:
1. No real advantage if hooking up to DC, which you should be doing as much as possible, especially when using mesh discs. A cord is nothing compared to a hose, and allows just plugging directly into DC instead of WiFi pairing and jiggling sensors and changing little batteries, etc.
Cordless sander positives:
1. They’re quite handy for awkward positions or quick jobs.
I have no real experience with Festool sanders, but understand the lineup. I’d say unless you’re doing some quite specialized stuff repetitively, or are sanding a bunch and really like the ergos, especially the quick change cord, there are much better values out there.
1. A variety of pads for a multi tool can get in some awkward spots occasionally.
2. Any brand’s $50 5″ ROS with some decent mesh discs, used in succession and hooked up to a DC is quite effective.
3. Bosch 6″ dual action sanders are great. Some coarse grit mesh on eccentric mode is very aggressive, while giving great dust collection. The big motor on the back makes RO mode a little awkward, but doable with the 6″ pad and 2 hands. Soft pads work on curved surfaces.
4. Belt sanders get a bad rap, and dust collection is not good, but they’re fast, and if you’re careful and have some dexterity, can give great results very quickly. The major advantages over ROS are speed and the linear scratches going with the grain are not noticeable, unlike the little ROS squiggles you don’t notice until you’ve stained or finished the wood. A big, flat, stiff platten (4×24 belt) are key to the ability to use belt sanders for fine finish work.
Check out Ramon Valdez Fine Furniture on youtube. This guy finishes his marquetry with belt sanders and has some interesting videos explaining technique and rationale.
5. The best visible grain surface finish produced on wood is cut, not sanded. Planing, scraping and burnishing do not produce fuzz or clog wood pores, allowing light to reflect better than even the finest grit sanding or polishing. Used planes can be found quite cheap and scrapers blades cost a few bucks or, like burnishers, can be made for even less.
If you’re doing a ton of sanding, the balance, light weight and speed of a pneumatic ROS are reasons they’re first choice in industry.
If you’re sanding doors and tables, etc. all day, a wide belt or even stroke sander make everything else look like a joke.
Farkleberry
If you’re doing an occasional big project you can often find a cabinet shop that will let you run your stuff through their wide belt for a reasonable fee.
Remember you’ll never get those hours of your life sanding back.
Not to mention all of the people who set up hobby air conditioned wood shops and thought their dust collection and filtration was great, but now they have sensitivity to wood dust and breathing problems. Power tool dust collection is VERY tricky, constant and serious cross ventilation or (very annoying) respirators are the only realistic low risk options for continuous exposure.
fred
Thanks for your observations – which approach being a nice tutorial on some aspects of wood finishing. The wide belt sander hooked up to central dust collection was just as important tool in our cabinet shop as our saws and jointer. Our other sanders were exclusively pneumatic from companies like Hutchins and Dynabrade. When my partners and I acquired the company – I immediately saw the value of the wide belt sander and soon bought one – albeit a much smaller Performax – for my home shop.
Some other thoughts about your observations:
I produce a several pieces of reproduction furniture each year – now mostly to gift. I spend more time on finishing the pieces than I do on actual building – and think that that is how it should be. The pieces that I build hearken back to a time (Federalist Period) when master cabinet makers and joiners likely did not know what sandpaper was – as it was not widely available until much later. Using a raking light to see surface imperfections relied mostly on the morning sun back then – as other forms of light were not available or safe. Smoothing a surface required hand planes spokeshaves and scrapers. Mortise and Tenon, dowel, dovetail, dado and other joints were created using hand tools. Moldings and other decorative edge treatments required a set of hand planes with soles and irons contoured to produce the desired shape. While it is sometimes nice to create a piece using traditional hand techniques – I find that I don’t have the patience, time or skill to go that route for the entire process. So, I use power tools (cabinet saw, jointer, planer, sanders, routers, drills etc.) to do the heavy lifting. When I bought my Domino machine – it also speeded up much of my joinery process. I still rely on a combination of hand and power tools for final finishing – especially since I like to use figured woods and embellish pieces with inlays.
Some of my observations about specific tools:
Belt sanders:
As you say – I also believe that the belt sander got a bad rap. At one time it was the tradesman’s choice for fast removal of stock. But a quality machine with a good flat platen and proper grit belt can do remarkable finish work. I own 13 belt sanders (Makita, Metabo and Porter Cable) and have use belts with grits from 24 to 1000. Of my more modern sanders – the Makita 9403 – with swappable different platens – is my favorite. For sheer endurance I’d pick my Porter Cable 503.
Random Orbit Sanders:
Invented by Porter Cable, the first ROS was based on a 6-inch angle grinder. It was marketed as an alternative to angled disk sanders for quick material removal with better finishing quality. I still use my PC 7336 for rough work – like sanding a garage door. IMO the ROS sure beats the conventional rotating disk in finish quality – especially on surfaces where the wood grain changes direction. Modern variants produce much finer swirl patterns that that old PC7336 – but the tool is still not perfect. Of my more modern ROS’s I like my Mirka Deros 5 inch the best.
Scrapers and Planes:
As you point out there is nothing like an edge tool (chisel, gouge, plane or scraper) to produce a smooth surface in wood. With the right tools and technique – there is no chatter, snipe, tear out etc.
A low-angle bevel-up plane with a properly ground iron can deal with end grain. A plane with a high angle (>= 50 degrees) frog and matching iron (blade) can tackle some figured woods. A card scraper with a newly prepared edge is the ultimate tool for smoothing figured woods like curly maple and some walnuts.
TJ Cornish
I bought a lot of Festool tools 10-15 years ago, then bought almost nothing from them until the last 6 months. I even filled out a survey they sent maybe 5 years ago saying I couldn’t justify the price premium anymore over Milwaukee.
I have just finished an 18 month pretty much complete renovation of a derelict property, and have re-entered the Festool world: the concrete planer is amazing (works on wood subfloors and painted siding too), the vacuums are amazing, Kapex is super expensive, but I saved so much time trimming the house with the calibrated legs and everything it paid for itself on the first job.
I have continuously been using the Domino, OF1400 router and Rotex 125 since I bought them in ~2010.
I have a lot of Milwaukee tools too, but they don’t do what Festool does.
For fun I just bought the PDC/TPC drill set, which is my only Festool cordless since I stopped using a T15+3 drill. The PDC doesn’t compete on raw torque with others’ flagship drills, but I have to say that I really dislike the last 2 generations of Milwaukee Fuel drills. They are super powerful, but the chucks suck, they sound like jet engines, and the gear shift selector sticks out so far that if I’m drilling near something, it will get bumped and shift out of gear.
I’m grateful for the occasional sale – Festool has had an attitude in the past and I’m OK with them being knocked down a peg or two, but I think it’s too early to declare them dead.
fred
I’m sure that the Festool 577048 is a great tool. We used a Bosch 1773AK
for similar work and had few complaints. The new Bosch CSG15 can be had for $339 versus $699 for the Festool. That seems like an issue that Festool is dealing with .
https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-CSG15-Concrete-Surfacing-Grinder/dp/B00UVXYX6I
https://www.amazon.com/Festool-Diamond-grinder-130-ECI/dp/B0C3WQVZ3M
TJ Cornish
Disclaimer: I confess I haven’t used the Bosch you link, so I’m extrapolating from other Festool vs Red/Yellow comparisons.
That said, when I learned that Festool had a concrete planer, I didn’t bother shopping other vendors. The Festool fits the vac I already have, the dust collection setup was clearly an integral part of the tool design and works extremely well, it’s brushless, the abrasives are super high quality (I ground continuously for 12 hours and I don’t notice any obvious wear on the wheel), the bearings are really nice, the electronic speed control actually works, etc.
Based on prior experience with other tools, I suspect there is something being cut on the Bosch to hit the price point.
There are a lot of different philosophies of tools; mine is that buying the best is usually worth it because I value my time. The $400 difference in initial acquisition cost disappears pretty fast with use if there is a time savings or a better quality result.
Does Festool have a few clunkers? Yep. Is competition good to keep Festool honest and reasonable? Yep. Do enough people find the extra price equates to value? I guess that’s what is being discussed here.
fred
Amen. It is certainly a balancing act. When we looked at buying a new tool across our 5 businesses (one being a union shop) – we’d try to think through the cost benefit proposition. We’d often try a new tool out and pass it around to see what we thought of it – asking questions like:
Will it improve our productivity? Will it enhance on-the-job safety? Will it improve our customer experience with less noise, fewer emissions, higher quality etc. ? How does it comport with the union representing our workers? Can we pay for it with the next job or next few jobs?
Then we’d try to see how the answers compared to the tools we were already using to develop a buying plan.
What I was getting at about a problem that Festool is facing is that the competition is catching up. Many buyers will think that they can buy 2 good Bosch tools or 1 Festool and never see beyond the big cost differential. If Festool can remain profitable sticking to their niche and continuing to innovate new high-quality tools, then they have a future at their price point. If they need to appeal to a larger US market to remain profitable – then they need to look at costs versus sales price.
Ben
I agree with you. People saying Milwaukee or others are replacing Festool are only looking at specific product segments. The Domino, OF1400 and OF2200 are in no way covered by Milwaukee.
It’s easy to make an argument that Bosch has sanders to compete with the Rotex (and I’d hesitantly agree), but the Kapex is at another level to any other chop saw.
I think most of Festool’s stuff is over priced, but it’s really dang good. I like my Milwaukee stuff as well, but it’s more job site focused compared to Festool’s mix of job site and higher end cabinet shop focus.
Farkleberry
Obviously Domino is uniquely great.
What makes the routers superior to not just Milwaukee, but anybody’s plunge routers? Dewalt’s Elu designs have pretty good dust collection and ergos, there are OEM and 3d printed dust collection for all the major makes and models. Bosch , Makita, Metabo HPT, etc. make big routers and more make midsize plunges, what justifies the festool’s triple price?
There are a ton of great chop saws, what makes the Kapex superior? Some other makers now have the vertical handle way up high, many people seem to prefer the ergos of a more traditional, lower, horizontal “non ambi” handle. The extension stop system is available from Fast cap and others or there are lots of shop built options.
TJ Cornish
The little details make the difference. On the router, the built in ratcheting bit lock to help with bit changes, multiple depth stops to set pass depth, dust collection, ability to use with track saw track, etc.
On the Kapex, the arms that extend forward so you can use the saw closer to the wall, the extension wings that once calibrated are extremely repeatable, the fact that the extension wings open nearly 8’ on each end, built in leveling ability, good lasers, good clamp, easy beveling in both directions, dust collection, good blades, etc.
As you mention, you can get to maybe even 90% with add-ons and 3rd party stuff, but Festool has done a lot of the work for you.
Farkleberry
Are these concrete planers just grinders with dust collection shrouds or is there more to it?
fred
I have not compared specs between the Bosch grinders versus concrete grinders. But here’s what Bosch says:
“The Bosch CSG15 5- In. Concrete Surfacing Grinder has a dedicated dust-collection shroud for a cleaner work environment, as well as plenty of power. It delivers 12.5 AMPs and up to 9,300 RPM, for concrete grading, surface preparation and other tough concrete applications. Its dedicated dust guard system is a comprehensive solution for collecting dust that allows grinding flush against walls. The system helps to provide a longer operational life, including a sealed motor and a sealed switch. It also has double-sealed ball bearings and two lip-sealing rings to protect against dust contamination. With Constant Response circuitry, this grinder’s motor can handle extended operational load, which allows the user to reach areas where walk-behind unit can’t touch. Its spindle lock allows for quick wheel changes, it has a wrap-around auxiliary handle and it includes Service Minderbrushes.”
TJ Cornish
I think there’s a bit more to it, but in essence, the main difference between a conventional angle grinder and a dedicated concrete grinder is the dust collection. Not sure if you’ve ever done any significant grinding on concrete – particularly indoors, but the amount of dust made is mind blowing. With the Festool (and possibly the Bosch), virtually no dust escapes into the room. This is the difference between having to plastic off your work area and stopping all HVAC to grind, followed by waiting hours for the air to clear and then cleanup vs. just doing the grind and maybe a little broom to get the heavy sand that got knocked through the bristles but never gets airborne.
There are some other differences too RE handle placement to help you keep the tool level, continuous duty design, speed control that works so that if you are grinding something like tile mastic you can go slow enough to not melt it everywhere, etc.
Farkleberry
Thanks for this info.
I’ve (luckily) done limited concrete grinding and it’s indeed messy business, like using a rotozip overhead. Enlisting a helper to hold a vacuum next to grinder made a big difference, but the dust shrouds work so much better.
Aftermarket grinder dc shrouds, clamping on like a conventional guard, have become common and seemed to have drive the prices of OEM guards down as well.
Festool, Bosch, Makita and German Metabo and some aftermarket concrete planers all have shroud setups that look a bit tighter than just a typical clamp on guard/shroud system. I could see how an incremental improvement could make a big difference indoors.
What exactly are you using them for?
Repairing tile grout or removing thinset?
Are you polishing terrazo?
If you go slow, old mastic comes off as dust and doesn’t just goop up the wheel?
Are these used extensively or only in spots you can’t use a walk behind?
How about using an sds chisel for removing thinset, especially intially? More vibration, but chunks vs dust. If the festool is essentially dust free I guess it might still be preferable.
I could also see how variable speed could be a big benefit here (mastic and control), where it’s rarely useful when grinding metal or quickly cutting through concrete etc.
I’m skeptical these units are more powerful or have higher duty cycles than other 5 or 7 inch grinders, and I would assume high quality grinders have good internal dust shielding, as metal and outdoor concrete grinding would destroy them otherwise. The dust extraction would seem to pull the contaminates away from the internals even more effectively.
The Makita model talks about springs in the shroud to keep it sealed, wondering if the Festool, etc. have that? Makita seems to lack variable speed though.
Are you using fleece bags with a dust collector? Does the dust seem to get through and trash the primary or hepa filters ($$$)?
The loop handle would seem much better for floor vs table use. I’m assuming they just attach to both bosses like on a traditional L/R grinder handle.
TJ Cornish
My initial application was improving the condition of a very poor slab in the home I renovated. A lot of high spots; the floor had old mastic that was very difficult to get off. I did not need to get all the old mastic off as I was putting carpet down there, but the floor was so lumpy that I did quite a bit of grinding to have a good result with the carpet.
I have the Festool auto-clean vac that uses a thumper on the filter to shake (most of) the dust out, which then falls into an open-topped plastic bag in the vacuum. The grinder worked amazing, and can control the vac via Bluetooth, since the grinder takes too much power to use with the vacuum on the same circuit.
I ended up grinding 100+ lbs of concrete off the floor – several bagfuls. The grinder is amazingly fast. The vacuum thumper I would give a B- to – every 15 minutes or so I would have to pop the vacuum and manually flick the filter as the amount of concrete dust apparently accumulated faster than the thumper could clear it.
I also used it to flatten a poor quality OSB subfloor – even with the same diamond wheel it made beautiful cuts in the wood and was surprisingly controllable. MUCH better than a belt sander, and again, virtually no dust.
Next up is grinding the old paint off the garage. The tool is probably a bit heavier than it might need to be for paint removal vs. concrete, so I’m not looking forward to holding it high on my body for hours on end, but I’ve seen it work and it makes a terrible job less terrible.
Farkleberry
Thanks for info. I would say I’d file under info I’ll hopefully never use, but if this (and hopefully competitive options) let so little dust escape, maybe I should be less apprehensive.
Good point about Bluetooth dc activation on powerful tools.
I have been able to find some good deals on fleece bags for my dust extractor. “Good deals” and festool are (purposely?) antithetical, but there are aftermarket options. I would think fine concrete dust would be an ideal application for the fleece bags.
Rob
Festool dealers can discount discontinued SKUs all night and day, and they do Every Festool dealer on the Internet has a sale or a clearance section. Cordless stuff gets discontinued the most. New battery? New Systainer? New insert? Kits and even the bare tools will get a discount. Meanwhile, when a store ends their contract with Festool, they can sell their remaining inventory at any price they want. Festool has a pretty high minimum order and Ohio Power Tool is the last place I’d think of for purchasing Festool. There’s no mystery here.
Stuart
They really cannot. Festool products are price-fixed and cannot be discounted at the discretion of their dealers.
Hailey
“A few years ago, they had a special super-low-priced sander at an aggressively low priced.”
*price.
Stuart
Thank you! *fixed*