Cordless power tool batteries used to be simple and easy to understand, where the higher the number, the greater the charge capacity and runtime.
Now, things are a bit more complicated, especially with the introduction of new battery technologies, such as Milwaukee’s Forge.
Here, I’ll quickly classify all current Milwaukee M18 cordless power tool batteries, and provide context and background information I hope you find helpful and convenient.
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Milwaukee M18 Battery Sizes
Milwaukee has three main M18 battery size form factors, CP, XC, and HD.
CP – Compact
XC – Extended Capacity
HD – High Demand
Prior to the introduction of the new Forge pouch cell battery, M18 batteries where characterized by the number of Li-ion cells they contained. CP batteries had (5) cylindrical Li-ion cells, XC batteries had (10), and HD had (15).
Now, especially with the new Forge XC 6Ah battery featuring Li-ion pouch cells, the XC descriptor refers to the sizing category.
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CP, XC, and HD can roughly describe battery power output and performance expectations as well, but not as accurately as they used to.
Because of this, I think that these labels should only be used to classify M18 batteries according to size and weight.
CP -> Compact (and Light)
XC -> Medium
HD -> Large
Milwaukee M18 Battery Power Scale
Milwaukee recently introduced a Power Scale with 4 different tiers. These tiers preceded the introduction of their M18 Forge battery; this is a new and more elegant presentation of existing tiering.
The higher the power scale level, the greater the potential output and performance delivery of a battery. Generally, the more power a battery can deliver, the cooler and longer it can operate under heavily loads.
Milwaukee has not (yet?) published power level requirements for their M18 cordless power tools. All of their batteries fit all of their tools, but there are more and less ideal pairings.
Based on my familiarity with Milwaukee M18 cordless power tool batteries, I would classify all of the current M18 batteries as follows.
Power Level 1
CP 1.5Ah
CP 2.0Ah
Power Level 2
CP 3.0AH – High Output
XC 3.0Ah
XC 4.0Ah
XC 5.0Ah
Power Level 3
XC 6.0Ah – High Output
XC 8.0Ah – High Output
Power Level 4
XC 6.0Ah – Forge
HD 12.0Ah – High Output
Does that make sense? Following is a look at where this all comes from.
Where the M18 Battery Power Levels Come From
As I mentioned above, Milwaukee’s different M18 battery power levels are not entirely new, it’s just that we’re talking about it in a new way.
For that matter, Milwaukee hasn’t exactly discussed the different power levels either; I found the diagram in their Forge battery product listing, and consider it clear enough to reframe how we talk about cordless power tool batteries.
The First M18 RedLithium Batteries
Around 10 years ago, there were CP and XC batteries. Technically, there were compact and XC batteries, as Milwaukee’s CP terminology didn’t appear until much later.
Here is what the power levels looked like towards the end of this age of M18 battery tech.
Power Level 1
CP 1.5Ah
CP 2.0Ah
Power Level 2
XC 3.0Ah
XC 4.0Ah
XC 5.0Ah
HD Batteries
Milwaukee introduced their M18 High Demand 9.0Ah battery in 2015, along with an XC 6Ah battery (not High Output or Forge).
With the High Demand (HD) 9.0Ah battery, a new power level was created. At the time, the CP batteries had 5 Li-ion cells, the XC batteries had 10 Li-ion cells, and the HD battery had 15 Li-ion cells.
Because of how the tools featured common battery technologies, CP, XC, and HD could be used to describe the batteries’ physical sizes, as well as their power output capabilities.
Power Level 2
XC 6.0Ah
Power Level 3
HD 9.0Ah
Both of these batteries have since been discontinued.
High Output Batteries
Milwaukee debuted their first M18 High Output batteries in 2018.
While the earlier CP and XC batteries delivered Power Levels 1 and 2, respectively, the High Output CP and XC batteries are classified in Power Levels 2 and 3 instead.
The new High Output HD battery created another new higher power level.
Power Level 2
CP 3.0AH – High Output
Power Level 3
XC 6.0Ah – High Output
XC 8.0Ah – High Output
Power Level 4
HD 12.0Ah – High Output
Milwaukee RedLithium?
Milwaukee updated their M12 and M18 Li-ion cordless power tool batteries in 2010 (here’s our post from the time), with the then-new RedLithium batteries delivering longer runtime, more power, and more charging cycles than their earlier generation batteries. The RedLithium batteries also operated in a wider temperature range.
All of Milwaukee’s M18 batteries since then feature RedLithium branding.
Milwaukee High Output
Milwaukee’s earlier M18 batteries were engineered with 18650-sized Li-ion cells.
With cylindrical cells, the first two digits represent the cell diameter, and the second two represent their length. An 18650 cell has a cylindrical shape with nominal dimensions of 18mm in diameter and 65mm in length.
With M18 High Output (HO), Milwaukee introduced batteries that were engineered with 21700-sized Li-ion cells.
21700 Li-ion cells are physically larger than 18650 cells.
Let’s say you have an 18650 cell with 3.0Ah charge capacity, and a 21700 cell with 3.0Ah charge capacity. Generally speaking, both cells should deliver the same runtime in light duty applications. However, the 21700 cell will have lower charge density and should operate cooler. This allows it to deliver higher power levels than the smaller-sized cell, and for longer.
Looking at battery datasheets to further the point, the maximum continuous discharge current for Samsung’s 18650 3.0Ah battery cell (INR18650-30Q) is 15A at 25°C, and for their 21700 3.0Ah battery (INR27100-30T) it’s 35A at 25°C.
The takeaway is that Milwaukee’s M18 High Output batteries can deliver greater power than non-HO batteries with the same cell count.
For example, a High Output CP 3.0Ah battery, engineered with 5x 21700 Li-ion cells, should deliver higher power than a CP 2.0Ah battery, and match the performance output level of their XC 3.0Ah, 4.0Ah, or 5.0Ah batteries.
What About Milwaukee Forge?
Milwaukee says that their new M18 Forge XC 6.0Ah battery can deliver the same power level as their High Output HD 12.0Ah battery.
Therefore, this battery has an XC size, and is classified in the Power Level 4 tier.
What About Runtime?
An amp-hour is a measure of charge capacity – it’s the number of hours a battery can deliver a constant current of one amp.
A fully-charged 5.0Ah battery can deliver a 1.0A current for up to 5 hours, a 2.5A current for up to 2 hours, a 5.0A current for up to 1 hour, and so forth.
When comparing batteries of the same voltage you can go by amp-hour. When comparing batteries across voltages, go by watt-hours (volts x amp-hours), which is a measure of energy storage capacity.
An M18 5.0Ah battery (90 watt-hours) will power a low-drain cordless power tool for longer than a 3.0Ah (54 watt-hours) battery.
Quick Milwaukee M18 Battery Legend
Based on all of this:
Size and Weight Classes
CP = compact and light
XC = medium size and weight
HD = larger size and heavier weight
Power Classes
Light Duty Batteries (PWR1): CP
Medium Duty Batteries (PWR2): CP-HO, XC
Heavier Duty Battery Choices (PWR3): XC-HO
Highest Duty Battery Choices (PWR4): XC-Forge, HD-HO
How do You Choose the Best M18 Battery?
It’s usually a good idea to start by checking to see which batteries a particular tool might be kitted with. For instance, if Milwaukee bundles a particular M18 tool with a High Output XC 8.0Ah battery in a kit, you should probably look at that battery, or perhaps others in power levels 3 or 4.
I would say that the XC batteries offer a balance between size, weight, and performance, and they span 3 out of 4 of the different power levels.
You can choose an XC battery based on size, power, or cost, and then down to CP or up to HD depending on the tool or your needs and preferences.
Unfortunately, as with most other brands’ cordless power tool lines, Milwaukee’s M18 tools are not divided by power levels. I think we might see this change at some point.
Questions?
I hope this helped demystify Milwaukee’s M18 battery sizes. It’s not an easy topic – please let me know if you have any questions!
See also:
Milwaukee M18 Cordless Power Tool Battery Sizes Explained
Comparing Power Tool Battery Specs – Watt-Hours vs Amp-Hours
Revisiting What an Amp-Hour Means for Cordless Power Tool Batteries
Clayton
CP 4.0Ah – High Output ? I don’t think I have seen this battery yet, is it out?
Andy
I have the same question – haven’t seen a PN or anything for it yet
Stuart
Sorry, I combined two sets of data and didn’t catch the error.
There’s no CP 4.0 that I’ve heard about yet.
I think there could be the potential for a compact Forge battery, but it’s too soon to speculate.
Adam
There actually is, or was a model number for one dating back to 2019 for a 4ah HO compact battery. Only place I’ve seen it documented is on this UN testing sheet. 48-11-1845
http://content.oppictures.com/Master_Images/Master_PDF_Files/495-48-59-1890_BTS.PDF
Figured if Dewalt had a 4ah 21700 compact, Milwaukee might try to up their 3ah HO. Not like that minor difference would have anyone choose one brand over another
mahk gee
9.0 was prolly the best so far…RIP
Stuart
The HO XC 8Ah delivered the same power level in a more compact package.
TomD
Every 9.0 I had died the death, the 12ahs replacing it run fine.
Anyone want some dead 9.0s?
Stuart
Write to Milwaukee with the serial numbers, see if they’ll replace the batteries for you. If you’ve been holding onto them for a while, mention that too.
Ian M
9amp came with a warning in the box in New Zealand.
This is the link. I think this be the real reason for them being discontinued
https://www.milwaukeetool.com.au/on/demandware.static/-/Sites/en_AU/v1691179307053/ProductResources/Powertools/Safety%20Warnings/Milwaukee%20M18B9%20Safety%20Notice.pdf
andrew holmes
The question I have on the forge batteries, is the charge time based off only the new duel supercharger or is the charge time the same with the current supercharger?
Stuart
I need to check on that.
The HO XC 6Ah battery recharges on the Super Charger in 35 minutes. The Forge XC 6Ah battery fully recharges on the dual-port Super Charger in 25 minutes.
The new dual port Super Charger recharges other standards and High Output batteries 5Ah to 12Ah in the same times as the single port Super Charger.
Product details for the Forge battery say that its 15 minute supercharge to 80% is with the dual bay charger.
The dual bay charger has a neat adaptive charging feature, and I could see it charging the Forge battery faster than the single bay super charger.
Until I can get an official answer, I think that it’s best to consider that the new dual port SuperCharger recharges the Forge XC battery in 25 minutes, and the single port SuperCharger recharges it at the same rate as the existing HO XC battery, which takes 35 minutes.
Collin
I like the Flex system that just puts the maximum continuous discharge watts right on the battery instead of relying on arcane acronyms that need to be defined and redefined over time.
MM
I like that too. It’s as clear as can be.
Jason
Would have been helpful flying through Canada when they just did not believe me that m18 5.0 meant take 18×5 because it was explicitly called out
Stuart
Every M18 battery has watt-hour specs printed on the bottom.
Big Richard
MM and Collin are referring to the Watt output of the batteries, not their Watt hour (Wh) rating. Power, not capacity. FLEX includes this on the battery, i.e. their 10Ah battery can put out 2520 Watts continuously.
https://www.flexpowertools.com/24v-10ah-stacked-lithium-battery-fx0341-1/
Collin
Let me add that I like the Flex chargers with the wattages printed on the charger instead of this Milwaukee nomenclature mess with standard chargers, rapid chargers, superchargers, etc. I thought organic chemistry nomenclature was difficult until I tried to figure out Milwaukee chargers and batteries.
xu lu
The initial discussion and images which center on Milwaukee’s grading system and imply but doesnt state amp hours are a surrogate for power is simply irrelevant and a red herring. You debunk this but the images really are misleading. You get over the target just before the Forge discussion. The only thing relevant is whether the batteries contain 18650 or 21700 cells. That’s it. Milwaukee has done a DeWalt and let weak markerters spread pixie dust. Just tell me the type of cells and send the marketers to the beach.
Stuart
Huh? Every Milwaukee battery has an amp hour rating.
I can’t change how any tool brands market or advertised their batteries, all I can do is try to clear things up and answer questions that arise.
TomD
Don’t MXFuel not really admit their voltage?
Stuart
Milwaukee Tool FAQ: “All MX FUEL™ REDLITHIUM™ batteries are 72V. All MX FUEL™ batteries fit all MX FUEL™ Equipment.”
Dust
Milwaukee really nailed the “knockoff” battery look with the forge branding. I’m assuming “forge” is a nod to forge welding, let’s hope the cells don’t all melt together.
Jason
My thoughts was a hat tip to the new hand tools factory.
Forged hand tools are greatly superior to cast in terms of strength and consistency. Supposedly their press forge takes that another level over hammer forge.
Forge = better. Although kinda weird from a battery perspective though
Collin
Forge is a nod to Forgery, as in, Fake
Keith haas
This guy has no idea what he’s talking about. As far as max discharge rate, the ho 6.0 will provide more current than a 12.0. the 6.0 uses 32 amp max discharge cells, the 12.0 uses 30 amp
Stuart
Let’s say your datasheet specs are accurate, which I doubt unless or until you provide an official source or evidence.
HO XC 6Ah has (10) cells in a 5S2P configuration.
HO HD 12Ah has (15) cells in a 5S3P configuration.
Theoretically, based on the Li-ion cell specs you’re claiming:
32A x 2P = 64A
30A x 3P = 90A
The HO 12Ah battery can deliver more power than the HO 6Ah battery.
Thank you for providing an excellent example of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
TomD
I assumed it was a prefix to his post (e.g, it describes himself).
Jay
I think this article does a great job of giving a clear overview of the different batteries Milwaukee offers.
Like others, I also think that due to so many different voltages across different brands, using watt-hours makes sense when comparing brands.
If Milwaukee don’t want to do that, for different reasons, there is nothing we can do about that.
Stuart do you think Milwaukee will introduce a Power Level 5 when the 12ah Forge battery is released? And will there eventually be a HO 6ah Forge battery, perhaps based on the same tabless cells as the 12ah?
Stuart
Every power tool brand (at least those I’m familiar with) has watt-hour specs printed on their batteries.
When comparing batteries across brands, it’s best to calculate watt-hours from the nominal or max voltage and charge capacity. This way you know the figures are consistent.
Some brands use 18V, others 20V Max or 24V Max. For comparison purposes, it doesn’t really matter as long as one is consistent and uses nominal or max voltages for every battery being compared.
Aside from Flex, brands don’t public max wattage on their battery packs. Even if they did, most tool users wouldn’t know what this means or how to use it.
It’s too soon to know if the Forge 12Ah battery will be power level 4 or 5. In theory, it could introduce a new higher power level. But it would be more practical for that Forge battery to replace the existing High Output 12Ah battery in level 4.
Milwaukee has in the past launched new battery technologies and then tools that were developed to directly and strongly benefit from them. Will there be new tools that could leverage higher output capabilities? Or will the upcoming Forge 12Ah battery simply surpass the current 12Ah in terms of power delivery and thermal endurance?
I’d say there’s a 2-to-1 possibility that the Forge 12Ah battery – which I believe won’t be released until late 2024 – will be in power level 4.
Jay
Well, I have just found out that in Milwaukee’s marketing material, there is shown Power Level 4 (this is where the 6ah Forge battery is), and above that is shown Power Level 5.
So, to answer my own question. Yes, it is highly likely that we will see a Power Level 5.
Presumably with a ‘High Output’ Forge battery series, starting with the upcoming 12ah Forge battery.
Stuart
Can you point me in the direction of where you saw PWR Level 5 referenced?
Jay
In this video from the good guys at Ohio Power Tool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EmJUdqRkMM
From around 2:32 and a minute or so forward.
Now what I wonder about is this:
I know Milwaukee will make tools that has been optimized for these new batteries (this was revealed at the end of Pipeline), but will they have some sort of name for this.
Like Forge Ready or something. Or perhaps they will just begin to show PWR level on each tool.
TomD
Milwaukee doesn’t have a huge advantage releasing more powerful batteries because they cling to “every battery in every tool” even though nobody would try to run the lawnmower on dual CPs.
Rx9
How many amps max discharge is the 6.0 forge rated for?
Big Richard
They claim it outputs the same power as the 12.0, which is good for around 1800 Watts. If my math is correct, that means the FORGE 6.0 is good for around 1800 Watts as well. At 18 Volts, that’s 100 Amps.
Stuart
How are you getting 1800W?
Let’s say the 12Ah battery has Samsung INR21700-40T cells in a 5S3P configuration. Those cells are rated to 35A without temperature cut and 45A with 80°C temp cut.
So that’s 3.6V x 5 x 3 x 35A (as there are 3 parallel rows of 5 cells in series). That’s 1890W, for the 15 cells, added up.
Groupings of battery cells in a plastic housing are unlikely to deliver that much power in a sustained manner. A battery pack’s pulsed and continuous power delivery capabilities are going to be different from that of their Li-ion battery cells.
1890W would be a theoretical limit for the collection of individual cells in the 12Ah battery, not the 12Ah battery.
Big Richard
Correct, that’s why I said “around 1800 Watts” rather than using their spec’d rating of 1890 W. However I should have specified that that is the max continuous rating, they can peak higher than that for short bursts but typically will run lower than that.
I believe Milwaukee themselves just say the 12.0 can deliver “15A corded power”, which is typically considered around 1800 W as well. So it checks out.
Stuart
I’ve seen tools marketed as delivering 15A corded-like power, but not batteries. And when they say that for tools, they usually (if not always) refer to direct tool performance comparison.
The claim will usually be something like “our 18V cordless 7-1/4″ circular saw delivers corded-like performance,” meaning the cordless saw should complete a cutting task at the same speed as a corded saw.
If you can remember where you saw the battery advertised as delivering 15A corded power, please point me in the direction, as I sometimes miss marketing and retail claims.
How long can a 5 year old child maintain calm behavior when they’re in an elevator? What about a group of 5 year old children in an elevator?
Current deliver estimates, based on a battery pack’s constituent Li-ion cells, can be useful and are often all we have, but there are too many variables to extend Li-ion cell limits to a battery pack without qualifications.
We don’t know the steady state max continuous current delivery of an M18 HO 12Ah battery. This can be measured by a well-funded test lab, but I have not seen public measurements or results.
Without knowing how much current a 12Ah battery can deliver – whether by practical or engineered limits, we can’t quantitatively estimate the power delivery of the Forge 6Ah battery.
Anything beyond “the Forge XC 6Ah battery can deliver the same power level as the HO 12Ah” is uncertain unless there are measurements or marketing claims (which tend to require legal approval with internal measurements used for support).
You know the subject material well; my concern is not about your understanding of this, but how others might see what you wrote think that each Forge battery cell can deliver 100A of current. Could it be 80A? 75A? We don’t know.
Big Richard
@ toolguyd While I don’t know if they actually lab tested it or are also just estimating, FLEX rated both Milwaukee and DeWalt’s 12Ah batteries at 1800 Watts as well when they released their Stacked Lithium. I have to think if anything they would have rated it lower than its theoretical max to make theirs look that much better, but they did not. They went with the 1800 W. It was in their FLEX Face Off video, here’s a screen shot boosted from PTR.
https://www.protoolreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Flex-Power-Stack-Batteries-Power-800×414.jpg
As for Milwaukee’s 15A power verbiage, this is what I found after I made my first comment, I was pretty close:
“The M18™ REDLITHIUM™ HIGH OUTPUT™ HD12.0 Battery Pack provides 50% more power and runs 50% cooler vs M18™ REDLITHIUM™ HD battery packs. The massive increase in power elevates the performance of the entire M18™ system and drives the next breakthrough in M18 FUEL™, delivering the power of 15A corded product.”
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Batteries-and-Chargers/M18-Batteries-and-Chargers/48-11-1812
They say power, not performance. But I feel ya, brands typically are careful to say it performs like a corded, but not in this case.
Stuart
When Dewalt announced their FlexVolt 9Ah battery, they compared it to Milwaukee’s M18 9Ah, saying that the FlexVolt ran cooler.
Their tests showed that on average the Milwaukee 9Ah battery temperature rose 50% faster during a constant 60A discharge up to 70°C thermal shutdown.
Dewalt provided me with more details on how they tested the batteries, as well as measures taken to minimize the effect of ambient temperature fluctuations (they ran two loads for simultaneous testing).
They didn’t test the battery at 80A or 100A, they tested at 60A.
So that’s 1080 W.
I would expect for the Dewalt 12Ah FlexVolt battery to perform comparably.
On paper, a group of 15 similar cells as the ones used in the FlexVolt 9Ah battery should deliver up to 1890W or thereabouts. So why did they test it at 1080W for competitive marketing purposes? I’m thinking that’s because it cannot deliver steady state continuous discharge performance at 1800W.
Flex can claim that Dewalt and Milwaukee 12Ah batteries can deliver 1800W, as – in my opinion – that’s a reasonably legally-defensible argument. But can you find that chart on their product packages or website?
Maybe theoretical limits painted the Flex batteries in a better light than if they tested all of the batteries – theirs included – at thermal shut-off thresholds. It’s impossible to say without controlled testing.
Milwaukee’s product page for the 12Ah battery specifically says “delivering the power of 15A corded product.”
This refers to the power output of a 15A corded product, and not the electrical input power.
Consider an off-the-shelf 60W equivalent LED light bulb. It’s advertised as being a 60W equivalent, meaning it delivers comparable output to a 60W incandescent light bulb.
A 60W incandescent light bulb draws around 60W of electrical power. A 60W equivalent LED light bulb (looking at an EcoSmart for example purposes) draws 9.5W.
https://www.amazon.com/Ecosmart-Equivalent-Energy-Dimmable-4-Pack/dp/B01MSD3E6M/?tag=toolguyd-20
It can be said that the 60W equivalent LED light bulb delivers the brightness of a 60W incandescent light bulb. But this doesn’t describe the input power required to deliver such output.
For an incandescent light bulb, it’s 60W, and for an LED light bulb, it’s 9.5W.
The result is the same – photonic emission at measurable brightness levels – but the technology and input electrical power are very different.
In a similar sense, if a cordless power tool can deliver 15A corded-like performance, there’s no basis for assuming that the tool requires the same input power to do so.
As corded power tools draw power from what can be considered an unlimited source of electrical energy, how much effort has been made to improve their energy efficiency over the past 10 to 20 years?
So when Milwaukee says that their 12Ah battery can be paired with their tools to deliver “the power of 15A corded product,” they are specifically talking about the output power of the tool as it compares to the output power of a corded tool, and not the power of the battery when compared to electrical power draw of an AC.
Big Richard
If I had to guess, I would say DeWalt tested their 9Ah vs. the 9.0 HD at 60A because the Samsung 30Q cells that made up the 9.0 HD are rated at 15A max continuous discharge. So a 3p pack like the 9.0 HD should have only been ran up to 45A, at 60A they were already maxing out that pack. Meanwhile they were in the gravy zone for the 30A Sanyo 20700 cells that made up the FlexVolt 9Ah back in 2016 (moved to Samsung 30T 21700 cells in 2018).
We both are assuming what Milwaukee meant by their 15A corded claim, but they likely were talking more about its performance and relative power output. For example, DeWalt rates their DCS578 circ saw at around 2500 Unit Watts Out, which is above the theoretical 1890 Watt limit of a 3p pack using 35A cells. So it does seem to be the norm for tools to output more than the theoretical electrical output of their battery.
I still think 1800 Watts is good estimate for the 12.0/FORGE 6.0, knowing it is not 100% accurate. And really, as long as you use the same formula for any pack and its cells of known voltage and max discharge rate, it gives a decent relative comparison. There are many more variables we haven’t even touched on (resistance and associated voltage sag for example).
It also really doesn’t matter on paper, that’s why we test them. Which I enjoy much more anyways.
Stuart
I think it’s a good attempt at a fair estimate, and it’s based on what little facts we have to go by. But it could also be inaccurate for the reasons mentioned.
I challenged this because it can be read as a statement of fact, but shouldn’t be, given the many influential variables involved.
As you have seen in some of the other comments, some people will repeat numbers they’ve seen online, whether they fully understand them or not. This happens a lot, and I felt compelled to make clear your estimates are not factual.
The Forge battery also has different architecture, and could respond differently to tools than the 12Ah.
100A per cell is an uncertain estimate extrapolated from an uncertain estimate.
It is a good estimate, but I had to explain my stance why it cannot be trusted with high confidence.
“delivering the power of 15A corded product” closely matches what is often said about tools delivering corded-like performance, but you could be right.
Continuous discharge ratings would be useful, but as you point out many tools are used intermittently. We would need to know max discharge power for different duty cycles ranging from maybe 25% to 100% (continuous use).
For now, simply describing batteries with respect to tiered power levels seems like a good start. More brands should start doing this too. Maybe if it catches on, brands will then start providing power delivery ranges for each level, and consumption requirements for different tools.
Stuart
They haven’t said, and I don’t expect them to.
Marc
You’re confusing the issue by (mis)using the term “power”. Power is work output over time and is measured in watts, or volts x amp-hours. So when you compare 18v batteries then amp hours is sufficient to compare “power”.
So the two different 6ah batteries will deliver the same “power”. Though one may run hotter or lose it’s capacity more slowly over time or something else — I have no idea what you’re trying to say when you use the term.
Let’s stick to measurable quantities and not fall in the trap of using marketing terms.
Stuart
Let’s look at Samsung INR 18650 and 21700 3Ah battery cells of the type that are often used in cordless power tool battery packs.
18650 with 3Ah charge capacity – 15A max continuous discharge rate
21700 with 3Ah charge capacity – 35A max continuous discharge rate
Can the 18650 cell deliver a sustained continuous discharge current of 30A? No, but the 21700 can. Given that both cells can be considered to deliver the same voltage (at least at low loads), the 21700 cell can deliver more power than the 18650.
The 21700 cell can deliver greater wattage than the 18650 cell. That’s more power, and it is a measurable quantity.
Milwaukee had another M18 XC 6Ah battery, model 48-11-1860, built with 18650 cells. The High Output XC 6Ah battery was vastly superior from a power delivery standpoint.
You can argue that technically batteries with different Li-ion cells can deliver the same power but some will hit high temperature limits much quicker, but the effect is the same; that 21700 battery can deliver higher power levels than the 18650.
NO. Amp-hours is NOT a measure of power, it’s a measure of charge capacity. Charge capacity is akin to a fuel tank, and does not describe the type or energy delivery of that fuel.
Big Richard
Another Dunning-Kruger effect example?
Waldon
Sorry Off topic, but tooltopia has a sale now for several Milwaukee products and several include a free M18 2 gal vac MPN: 0880-20. And free shipping over $100. It includes some personal lighting. I got the rechargeable light MPN: 2112-21 and the penlight and the vac just about $120 including tax. Ymmv
TomD
That’s pretty darn good if you need the old non-packout vac as a beater.
Dan Huff
Thanks for all of the info!
Mark M.
I love a good spreadsheet, but if I need one to understand battery performance that would seem like an indicator that Milwaukee’s marketing department needs to simplify things. Particularly given that other brands seem to be doing a better job of cutting through the tech noise. This is a good article but it makes my head hurt, no fault of Stuart. What I start seeing is “Here’s a 3.0 battery but here’s another 3.0 battery, remember the difference because it’s important…and then we have a 6.0 battery BUT this other 6.0 is really like a 12.0…” Perhaps my attention span is getting shorter with age but none of that inspires me to buy anything, which would seem like the point.
Champs
Milwaukee could really help out by taking lower level batteries off the market, selling only HO and Forge. I guess their margins are more important than clarity for the consumer.
If there’s one battery below HO I’m pretty sure technology is far enough along for a single battery to combine the size of CP1.5 with capacity up to at least XC4.0. I appreciate the “if I fits, it works” ethos, but if you try to run the lawnmower off those puny batteries, you’ll know you deserve what you’re going to get.
Stuart
The non-HO batteries still fit a need.
An XC 5Ah delivers much longer runtime than a CP 3Ah and with a smaller but taller footprint.
As for the CP 1.5Ah and 2.0Ah batteries, Dewalt’s PowerStack 1.7Ah proved there’s still a market for compact batteries.
If I could only have one M18 battery, it would be the Forge XC 6Ah. Two? I’d add in the CP 2.0Ah. Three? I’d add in either the XC 5Ah or HO HD 12Ah depending on the tools.
There are also pricing considerations.
Yes, and no. There’s power (high discharge capacity) and energy storage (long runtime). High power cells tend to have lower energy density, and high energy storage cells tend to have higher energy density.
You can have 3Ah batteries in a CP 1.5Ah battery size, but at the expense of power.
Samsung’s INR 18650 cell with 1.5Ah capacity has a 23A max continuous discharge rating, while their 3.0Ah cell has a 15A rating.
There are some higher capacity cells of this physical size (e.g. 3.5Ah), but as far as I’ve seen they top out at less than 10A continuous discharge current.
Champs
I don’t think you’re saying anything incompatible with what I am.
If Milwaukee took all the CP and non-HO XC batteries and collapsed them into a single SKU, nothing of value would be lost. At the low capacity end, there’s really only upside for the user, in either size/weight or capacity. At the other, what’s the point of High Demand when HO batteries work just as well?
In the end, you get HO as the default line, Forge as the line for people who know they need more power, and Micro(?) for people who know that they don’t. It is so much less messy than CP, XC, HDHC, HOXC, and Forge.
Stuart
In the earlier comment, you proposed taking the lower capacity batteries off the market. Here, you seem to be suggesting that the nomenclature be simplified or reduced.
I think that compact, medium/balanced, and large are good ways to separate everything. In terms of power, standard, HO, and Forge kind of make sense, but it complicates matters to have them span multiple tiers.
Back to taking battery sizes off the market. You are not wrong, but there’s a disconnect between sales volume and perceived interest. Milwaukee continues to sell a ton of non-HO compact and XC batteries.
According to Amazon’s search results, they sold more than 10,000 Dewalt DCD771C2 cordless drill kits in the past month. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ET5VMTU/?tag=toolguyd-20
There are numerous cordless drill kits – by Dewalt as well as competing brands – that are often sold at the same price point. So why are people still buying that old and obsolete brushed motor drill kit?!
Milwaukee won’t sunset non-HO batteries because i) tool users are still buying them (whether as part of tool kits or otherwise), and ii) there are still benefits in using those sizes.
I’d also bet that commercial buyers want exact replacements for exhausted end-of-life batteries.
Steve
I wonder if solid state batteries will show up in power tools soon as well. Seems like multiple technologies and options for the future – will be interesting to see what wins out. At the end of the day, I think we all get more powerful tools that can run longer…
Adrian
@Stuart, thanks for the post!
I saw a pic with the tabless battery cell next to the MX pack.
Did you get dimensions by chance or see that loose cell?
A Milwaukee lady wouldn’t state dimensions when asked if 2170 size…
Also saw an interviewer ask a Milwaukee rep if they’d be put in the 12v batts. He was a bit hesitant but said yeah they may be doing that.
Stuart
I didn’t get a measurement on it, will check my notes and recordings, and also see if I can tell from my photos.
No new batteries are coming to M12 just yet. They introduced High Output batteries last year, and I don’t find the current batteries to be lacking in any way.
I highly doubt we’ll see tabless cells in M12 batteries before we see them in M18, and that won’t be for another year or so.
Kellg
I have had a lot of grief with the newer 12v 6.0 XC batteries
Mostly from Red/Green charger failures
-6- to be exact. Milwaukee did replace -2- of the -6- but refused to replace -4- that were purchased in bundled tools from Amazon
All of these were within a 18 month window
As noted, these are the Samsung batteries
Stuart
18650 3Ah batteries are the worst-performing for any brand. The only battery packs I use with those cells are Metabo HPT’s compact 3Ah batteries, and only with their compact drill or impact driver. That brand has since introduced 2Ah batteries, which I’d be more inclined to buy in the future.
Amazon isn’t an authorized Milwaukee dealer.
Milwaukee’s M12 2Ah and XC4Ah are their standard batteries, and their 2.5Ah and XC 5Ah are the new High Outputs. 1.5Ah and XC 3Ah batteries are still around. I haven’t had issues with their 1.5Ah to 4Ah batteries, and the recent 2.5Ah and 5Ah are supposed to deliver more power without any compromises or downsides. The 3Ah and XC6Ah deliver longer runtime but I’d consider them to have lower thermal endurance due to the cells they’re built with. This is true for all brands. Makita, for example, has an 18V 6Ah battery, but I’d strongly advise against it.
Adrian
Thanks Stuart! It’d be spiffy if they were a bit more compact, like 18650 size.
Potentially, the USB lights and m12 batts could get the 4ah TL (tabless) cells coming in next years m18 12.0.
I’d guess we’ll also see an m18 Forge 8.0 TL pack and possibly a CP 4.0, I can hope anyway…
An m12 CP 4.0 TL HO batt could be really nice.
The 6.0 pouch seems a move to just match DeWalt and Flex; “we have that too”.
Maybe in a couple months when some of the MX Forge packs are getting in people’s hands, somebody with do a tear down. It’ll be interesting to get dims. and see if/how the cells are branded…
Jeremy
Milwaukee has already bragged that their tools have equivalent of 15a corded power using HO batteries on the 21700 cells as the assumption. By this standard, there is no need for a “30a corded” battery. With many of the new tools coming out going to dual battery requirements, using two Forge batteries is the same thing as one 12a Forge by power output class but has the advantage of 36v to cut the current in half through the tool for better efficiency.
Eric
I mean honestly this is fine and dandy I guess from people already in the platform cause whattya gonna do, but in my opinion this is not a good way to get in new guys looking to get into a new or first platform, they’re gonna go with something more cut and dry and simple and not as messy. This may end up all being fixed where they just go simply by number but it definitely looks confusing to see so many numbers and letters meaning newcomers would look and be worried wether they are buying he right batteries for they’re tools
Stuart
It’s similar with nearly every brand.
Last year people were complaining about battery life because their Dewalt PowerStack 1.7Ah batteries weren’t lasting as long as their 5Ah batteries.
Makita’s batteries are simpler, only because they haven’t launched a new 18V battery size in years. Their 6Ah battery (which I’d argue against anyone buying) came out 7 years ago, and their 5Ah battery came out 9 years ago.
Dewalt has 5-cell, 10-cell, FlexVolt 15-cell, High Output-like, and PowerStack batteries.
Metabo HPT is fairly straightforward.
Ridgid and Ryobi keeps changing things, I’ve lost track. What’s the difference between older batteries and newer “Max Output” that claim up to 2x more power than a 1.5Ah battery? Shouldn’t all 10-cell batteries deliver up to 2x more than a 5-cell battery?
It’s ALL a confusing mess in my opinion. This was my attempt to demystify Milwaukee’s M18 line, as they just launched a new battery. I’ll likely tackle Dewalt’s next.
Battery selection isn’t an issue when buying into a cordless power tool lineup. It’s when you make additional purchases beyond that first combo kit or promo bundle deal where a bit of research can be beneficial.
KellyG1
I agree. It is so confusing because as you have pointed out, it comes down to battery chemistry & what are you going to use the battery for;
Slow steady discharge (lighting, heating use) or the need for power to the tool (heavy torque)
Stuart
In the digital camera industry, Canon has maintained the same battery form factor for their professional cameras, and has updated it over the years. They have different batteries for their compact cameras, and also their larger more power-hungry cinema cameras.
In the power tool industry, you might have one tool that sips power and another that gulps it. There are also multiple generations of power tool batteries on the market at the same time.
So you have to choose according to size, runtime, and now power is becoming a clear selection parameter. You don’t need all of those choices, such as the lower capacity batteries, but then everyone will complain about being forced into a narrower selection of batteries at higher price points.
Having observed and analyzed the power tool market for nearly 15 years, I can say that I’m not sure Milwaukee could or should do anything differently. Maybe their CP 1.5Ah and XC 3Ah batteries are redundant, but they’ll be around for as long as people are buying them.
Franco Calcagni
Understanding batteries is a mess. No brand is perfect, but Milwaukee M18 has been and continues to be the most difficult to follow. They at some point should have used the tried and true marketing slogan, “new & improved”, then disco’d a previous line.
With the 4 lines being superfluous letter designations, there are very few that understand the battery line that well. Using a Level 1, 2, 3, and 4, would definitely help, but still not needed.
If you look at Makita, which you said is simpler because they did not make any changes, but most LXT users have no problem with that. The 6ah being a dud, is known by many but not all. This, they should have done something…or just disco’d it.
You would think that R&D would learn and make things better. On the TTC, they consistently show that Dewalt XR 6ah and FV 9ah, consistently out perform their other batteries in tool usage. (due to cell type in the build).
Milwaukee should have dropped at least 1 of these lines, and even 2 lines; having a standard and heavy duty would have been so much simpler.
They also have too many sizes; 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0…etc. Make a 2.0, then a 4.0, from there, a 6.0 or 8.0…the actual number size is not as important as simply having a smaller size for dill and impacts that don’t need big gas tanks, and weight savings help. Something in the middle for tools that need a medium sized gas tank, and 1 or 2 large ones for the runtime hogs…always discontinuing a previous model when you come out with “new & improved”.
I would like all the companies to be “smart” and drop a lot of the erroneous battery designations and sizes. They are always compatible so the consumer loses…only the confusion.
Like Dewalt, as an example, they are smart enough to know the cell composition in the 6ah works so well…drop the 5ah. Milwaukee, get rid of all the letters, just keep 2 lines and go with something 99% of society will understand, like standard and heavy duty.
I appreciate you (Staurt) trying to explain it, but you shouldn’t have to. How many pros do you think have a diploma in Milwaukee battery 101?
Collin
The strategy is to baffle them with bullshit.
I’ve been closely following Milwaukee and the tool industry in general since 2017 and this is the first time I’ve seen the concept of “power levels” from Milwaukee. As if batteries weren’t confusing enough, they’re now adding another layer of obfuscation over CP, XC, HD, HO, etc.
Stuart
Batteries of different sizes have always delivered different power levels.
Did you find any part of this post confusing?
Rudy Hostetler
I follow the Torque Test Channel on You Tube. The Forge performa as good as the 12.0, slightly better on all the tools, but significantly better on amp/volt starved tools. After watching the Forge battery take the 6” grinder from 12.0’s 970 watts output on the dyno, up to 1110, at higher operating volts and rpms, I did some measuring. The Forge slots nicely between the XC 5.0 size and the 6.0/8.0 size. I started running them on everything. Now up on the roof we do not need any other battery, we always have max power. If we run out of grinder, framing nailer or saw power, the impacts battery will give us max performance, I am not planning to go back.
Rob
Hi what battery(longest run time)would be best for a milwaukee packout vacuum,thanks,
Stuart
M18 Forge 12Ah will deliver the longest runtime.