I tend to have established views on offshoring, but recent happenings have shaken my feelings up a bit. Maybe if I put my thoughts to paper I can make better sense of them.
There are few other things to talk about before I get into what my mixed feelings are about.
Really Right Stuff is a premium USA-based camera accessory company. They make tripods, ball heads, and other related photography accessories. In my limited experiences, I have found RRS to be a step above everyone else in their field.
Advertisement
RRS boasts – more quietly than I would – about how everything they manufacture is made in the USA. Even the sourced parts are made here, “down to the smallest screw.” Even the hex keys they bundle with their gear is made here. (If I recall correctly, they’re made by Bondhus.)
Only their “soft goods,” aka bags and cases, are made overseas by a USA-based company.
A few months ago, RRS sent out a survey that asked for my opinion as a customer, on Quality, Cost, & Origin Preferences.
On Page 2 of the survey, they asked for how I feel about several paths they might take, such as:
If Really Right Stuff made lower-cost products in another country, I would still buy them if the quality was the same.
I would buy more RRS gear if the technical features were reduced to lower the cost, while still being made in the US.
Advertisement
If there were “light” models where some features or capabilities were reduced to allow for lower pricing, would I buy them? Possibly, but some brands have tried that and the end results weren’t very good.
(I’m referring to Leatherman’s Croc, which was bundled with the Sidekick tool for a Home Depot holiday promo bundle. I have a Piranha, which is more featured than the Croc. The Croc was just crude in comparison. It’s not just the features that were cut back, but the finish quality.)
Part of what is great about Really Right Stuff products is the attention to detail and the superb quality. Would that carry over at an overseas factory?
One brand makes workbenches in the USA and China, with identical functionality but notable differences. Their bamboo-topped workbench is made in the USA, as is their maple workbench, but their “hardwood” workbench is made in China.
The imported workbench has a different finish, and the different worktop seems to be made with a cheaper hardwood than maple.
The products are nearly identical, but with notable differences. What most consumers only see are their prices. The company doesn’t openly disclose which workbenches are made where. It was only when I received a test sample of the hardwood workbench that I was made aware that it was not made here.
Now onto the mixed feelings.
Bridge City Tools makes super-premium woodworking tools. Some are pricey but affordable, others extremely cost-prohibitive, such as this $3,800 smoothing plane.
I ordered a couple of Bridge City Tools a few months ago – most small, one a bit more of a splurge. I figured that I could easily resell them if they didn’t live up to my expectations.
Bridge City Tools goes through production cycles, and so even some of their regular tools are not always in stock.
I had one problem with the Bridge City Tools drill guide I bought. My Dewalt Pilot Point – my go-to bits for non-critical general purpose drilling tasks – wouldn’t fit! So I contacted Bridge City Tools, and they said:
I checked with our production specialist and he said that we have seen this numerous times. And in every case it is the imported bits that are the issue. Our drill bushings have a 0.0005” clearance.
Dewalt Pilot Points are pretty good drill bits, so I was in denial until I did some checking. Imported, yes. But crappy?
We talked about drill bits, and they pointed out one of John’s blog post about garbage drill bits. John is Bridge City Tool’s founder, and as far as I am aware he is also the product designer. I had linked out to and discussed his drill bit post in an early ToolGuyd post.
I pulled out one of my USA-made industrial drill bits and ordered a Lee Valley bit for the size I needed. Lee Valley makes their brad point drill bits from USA-made twist drills. Both USA-made drill bits fit perfectly.
Here’s a summary of the announcement in case you don’t follow the above link to read it: Bridge City Tools has found a Chinese manufacturer that can produce their manual table saw at such high quality that it would be indistinguishable from a USA-made saw.
That saw and other USA-made tools will be marketed to USA customers, and Chinese-made tools will be made under license and sold to Canadian and overseas customers.
The Bridge City Tools made in China would be licensed designs said to be made to the “exact same quality,” but the pricing is expected to be half as much.
50% lower pricing with the only noticeable difference being “made in China” labeling instead of “Made in USA?”
Overseas manufacturing is being established so as to make the tools more affordable in international markets.
A big part of me doesn’t like this news. I guess I’d be happier if they produced a lesser line of tools made overseas at lower prices. Some brands do that – they have a line of affordable tools – mainly imported – and a line of premium tools made in the USA.
It’s my wallet that wants Bridge City Tools to make their licensed imported tools available in the USA. I’d sure buy some of them.
But speaking from the heart, I don’t want Bridge City Tools or their licensed manufacturing partner to sell imported versions of their tools in the USA. Because I know that, once they do this, few customers or potential customers will be willing to buy the USA-made versions.
Who would spend double the money on a USA tool if an imported design with identical design and features and comparable quality was also for sale?
One could argue that an imported version of a tool would make the brand more accessible to a wider customer base, and while true, would any of those customers really graduate to the USA-made versions? No. If the quality of their imported tool purchase was as great as they’re said to be, why not buy more imported versions of Bridge City Tools?
Here’s the conflict I’m talking about: I feel a little grumpy that I won’t be able to buy imported versions of Bridge City Tools’ products at half price. But I also agree with the decision, seeing it as the best way to ensure that Bridge City Tools continues to make tools in the USA.
I don’t have a solid understanding of how Bridge City Tools operates, but I believe they might make some things themselves and work with machine shops and other companies to handle different manufacturing steps of complex products.
They build tools to order, typically when enough people have added their names to a pre-sale list.
What will happen 1 year, 5 year, 10 years down the road if imported versions of Bridge City Tools were available in the USA?
John, the founder of Bridge City Tools, is truly an artist. I’d say he designs tools for function and aesthetics. And he doesn’t hold back on anything, hence the premium pricing. If you don’t like that, there are plenty of other woodworking tools to choose from, some with the same functionality, and others coming close.
In my heart I love that here’s a USA manufacturer that’s sticking to their ideals and preserving USA jobs.
I’m a little upset that woodworkers outside the USA will be able to buy comparable quality made-in-China versions that cost half as much.
It’s a condition of their licensing agreement that the made-in-China versions match or exceed the quality of the USA-made Bridge City Tools.
They won’t exactly be Bridge City Tools, though, if they’re licensed designs. Would they? I think this is something for the collectors to debate about.
When I buy tools that are made in Europe, the cost to my door is typically a lot higher than if I lived in Europe, except for some cases when I can order from Amazon UK or DE. So I can understand how relatively expensive tools made in the USA might be even more prohibitively expensive elsewhere.
For the tools on my wishlist that I can’t afford or can’t justify, I’ll have to suck it up and get over it, just like when there are other tools I want to use but cannot afford.
If it sounds like I’m ranting, that’s not my intention. I’m simply trying to get everything down on paper, in hopes I can resolve the two completely opposite feelings I have about this.
I take pride in how I lean towards USA-made tools sensibly. I value features and quality, but with all things equal I’ll spend a little more for USA-made products.
I’m embarrassed a little by my want for access to the half-priced imported versions of Bridge City Tools, because it almost seems hypocritical.
What would I have done in John’s place? Keep things as they are, with the tools inaccessible to most of the world outside the USA? Well, not completely inaccessible – I’ve read there are knock-offs, and maybe that too factored into John’s decision.
It’s not easy to talk about Bridge City Tools, because many of their tools seem to be aimed at collectors or woodworkers who have run out of things to buy and still have money to spend. Some of their tools are affordable problem-solvers, others are art collection pieces.
My woodworking isn’t anywhere near the level where I could do these tools justice. I don’t need them, although I’ve benefited from the drill guide’s unique design.
If you’re a woodworker, and you considered some of their tools to be appealing and potentially useful but outside your affordability, would you buy them if made in China and half the price?
And if you’re not a woodworker, imagine that we’re talking about Snap-on or another USA tool brand.
What if whatever at the top of your wishlist was licensed to another company that could make and sell it for half the price, but only outside the USA? Would your feelings be as mixed as mine?
I’ve spent a lot of time criticizing some brands and retailers for their offshoring, mostly when tool quality plummeted or design compromises were made to compensate for lower quality components.
But here, when a USA company makes the decision to work with an offshore partner to produce tools under license, I’m unhappy because the tools won’t be sold in the USA as a condition of the agreement?
It sounds selfish of me, but how does this move benefit me? I think that the answer should be obvious, but I’m not really getting it.
As much respect as I have had for John over the years, stemming from his blog posts and what I’ve heard about him, his transparency makes me respect him and Bridge City Tools even more. If only more business owners and brand executives were as willing to talk about their overseas arrangements.
mark
nuts…
fred
As Oscar Hammerstein said (via the King of Siam) it is a puzzlement. I’m not sure what to think – but wonder if a US grey market will start up selling Bridge City China-Made tools surreptitiously imported through some backdoors. Having licensed Chinese first-quality knockoffs available at lower price cant help but appeal to some “enterprising” importers.
Toolfreak
This is what’s going to happen.
Sellers in China will sell the China-made tools on ebay for enough to make a profit plus free (subsidized) shipping.
Some buyers might not notice/care that the packaging states “Made in China”. Those that do might get mad – maybe REALLY mad to the point they feel deceived – either that they’ve received a counterfeit product, or, learning that the name has been licensed out by the company, feel that they’ve sold out and/or think that they are really making ALL their products in China and stop buying them.
Hard to stop any of this since even companies with legal agreements that their licensed products won’t be sold back into the U.S. can’t stop private individuals, or at least not all of them listing the products every day.
Lukas
Say it ain’t so! I have a few Really Right Stuff items. The reason I buy them is the quality and that it supports local manufacturing. Going over seas is a slippery slope. That’s the first step towards being the same as everyone else.
Stuart
RRS seems to only be thinking about things. They’ve had a bunch of stuff copied and even knocked off too.
Paul K
Doing business overseas is lots of fun for lawyers and accountants and salespeople. If your main interests are designing and manufacturing tools, probably more of a headache.
Main motivation seems to be the fact that some of his products are already being made and sold (w/o license) in other countries. Licensing the products and brand to someone who cares about quality and (because of the cost of the license) the brand allows him to combat that somewhat. Also empowers said licensee to chase the counterfeiters.
Made in the USA means something in the USA, sells too. But outside the the US not sure whether people care or that it commands a premium.
Hilton
Paul said “Made in the USA means something in the USA, sells too. But outside the the US not sure whether people care or that it commands a premium.”
I’m in South Africa and before the corrupt and inept ANC government took over the country and ruined it, we used to pride ourselves in locally manufactured goods. Nowadays, we are flooded with Chinese stuff, some good but most complete junk. If I’m going to buy something from Amazon or Woodpecker I’m happy to pay a premium for ‘made in the USA’ but not if it’s from China. I may as well just browse Aliexpress or Banggood then.
Fazal Majid
Unless they take draconian measures to ward off “quality fade” the way Apple does, they will wreck their brand internationally.
Jim Felt
Of course, literally, no one else has the capitalization Apple does to protect their brand equity. Or the depth and breadth of fandom Tim Cook et al both enjoy and suffer through. (Maybe at least copyright-protection wise Disney? But that’s not as touchable.)
As I bang away here on my iP7…
Fazal Majid
Plenty of companies make Chinese manufacturing work, but those are the ones with realistic expectations of cost savings, and who invest in on-factory QA inspections, or better yet, run their own factories. This kind of long-haul investment is at odds with the short-term thinking of many executives.
Jim Felt
Bridge City (named for our many Portland bridges) started in my home town and I’ve always loved John Economaki’s sense of tool “style” and his lavish use of great photography long provided by a talented competitor of mine.
And like Really Right Stuff that was based upon the Swiss Arca camera platform but always sourced in SoCal and charged fairly for its utility, great design and quality.
But the times they are a changin’…
Markets evolve and even my Wera screwdrivers mostly say “Made in the Czech Republic”. Even Porsche SUVs are all made in Slovakia.
I imagine both of these relatively small and very specialized U. S. manufacturers are facing an ever increasing very stiff headwind. Both from changing tastes and the “good enough” mentality all higher quality manufactures face.
So thank goodness Leatherman is still able to both innovate and fabricate in Portland. As are Kershaw and the other Gerber Legendary offshoot knife guys.
A conundrum worthy of your self debate. AKA “good luck”.
Fazal Majid
There are other excellent brands of photo accessories made in the USA like Acratech or Kirk Enterprises, and they don’t have the problematic political stance of RRS. It would be suicidal of them to switch their production to China when you can get Chinese clones for 1/10 to 1/5 the price on Amazon.
That said, while “Made in Germany” or “Made in Japan” may command a premium in international markets, “Made in USA” no longer does, thanks to the Detroit Big 3 automakers.
Stuart
Kirk stuff is good, but their tolerance can be off. My Kirk L plate fits my Arca Swiss ball head clamp, my Kirk lens plate doesn’t without readjustment. I have to replace that clamp with RRS.
I have a few other Kirk components and growing number of RRS.
Not everything RRS makes is great for my needs. I have an original Safari clamp, and it’s a pain to use on anything but specifically sized rigid tubing.
fred
I’ve migrated away from anything approaching high end photography over the years and my ancient Leica M4 and Nikon F2 stuff mostly gather dust. Having sold my large format (Linhof and Sinar) film cameras – and never having been into cinematography – my need for spectacular tripods and heads either waned or never existed. That said – I don’t know what RRS makes – but always thought that O’Connor and Sachtler were real world-class producers. Meanwhile – my old Gitzo tripod is a bit overkill for the Canon pocket camera that I mostly carry when travelling. Sometimes – I bring along a pair of visegrips – with a 1/4-20 stud welded on and my old Leica ball head to steady things up.
Jim Felt
fred.
Preaching to the choir.
;-)~
I actually bought a couple of Craigslisted G11’s this past week so our social media types would actually use something beside their iPhones for on the fly media acquisition. I.E. photos.
fred
Its funny how things happened in the camera world. Once small format (aka 35mm – derived from Panavision motion picture film) became a standard (pre-WWII) – the Germans started to dominate the market with cameras from Leica and Zeiss-Ikon. There were other German players too in this format like Exacta – and Voightlander – plus American makers like Kodak-Ektra and Argus) After the war – Japanese makers started to make inroads – and then started to dominate. The rangefinder Nikons (some say N-Ikon) were initially copies or cousins of the Zeiss Ikon cameras – while Canon cameras were more closely aligned with Leica’s. Of course there were a plethora of other makers – post war like Topcon, Minolta, Pentax, Konica and Yashica. A other makers like Alpa (Swiss) also appeared after WWII. It is interesting that at first the Japanese cameras were eschewed by pros as inferior to their German counterparts – but then became to dominate with cameras like the Nikon F.
Jim Felt
fred.
David Douglas Duncan.
Korean War era. S series.
Then in 1957-8 the F series. And the end of Rollie, Leica et all.
Uber’s here. 10-4
fred
Now you’re talking about a photographer! One of my kids lives in Austin where his archives are stored at UT – unfortunately not often on exhibit.
It was folks like him and Life Magazine that appreciated the freedom that 35mm imparted – and as you say it was the beginning of the end for larger format (6x6cm like the Rollie you mention or 4×5, etc.) for photo journalism. In college – I remember taking sports shots with a Technika III or IV and later downsizing to a Mamiya C33 – because the daily newspaper only wanted larger format negatives.
Jim Felt
Kirk actually preceded RRS by a number of years. But both RRS’s founder and his predecessor Joe have simply ramped up expectations (likely due to their aviation based vendors?) for how well stuff(sorry) should look, work and feel.
fred
Stuart – you wrote “I have an original Safari clamp, and it’s a pain to use on anything but specifically sized rigid tubing.”
For me that where a less elegant homemade vise grips or vise grip chain pliers – with a 1/4 stud welded on comes in. If you select the right pliers/jaws – screw on a nice ball-head to the stud – you can clamp onto nearly anything (railings, fences, posts etc.) and attach your camera.
Stuart
At the time, I was hoping it could be used on flat surfaces, like shelving and table tops, as well as different diameters of tubing.
Now they have a new version with flat jaws, and it’s supposed to work a lot better.
Most of the stuff I clamp to aren’t suited for vise grips (finished surfaces), and other clamps might be too large and obstructive.
z2w
I’ve recently taken to padding my vice grips with some spare bits of silicone U-channel. Works great!
Toolfreak
I don’t own any BCT products and wasn’t familiar with the company, but it sounds like maybe they were stuck and licensing out the brand to sell some less expensive products overseas is a way to generate more revenue and grow, plus gain more exposure. Same with RRS.
It can be tough to grow a die-hard 100% USA-made-everything business past a certain point, depending on the products and what the cost of materials and manufacturing/labor is for similar products and in other markets. If it’s niche enough, or you just make the best stuff and have devoted customers who want the best, you can charge what you want and make money.
It also seems like if a company doesn’t license out the name for overseas use, they risk counterfeiters doing it anyway, if they aren’t already. A small business often doesn’t have the legal resources, much less the time or money, to pursue trademark and copyright claims abroad, and lots of countries don’t respect such legal concepts from U.S. companies in the first place. At least having a legal agreement with an overseas company puts the ball in their court so now they have a legal interest in keeping the counterfeiters out of the market, rather than the original U.S. based company having to go it alone.
I hate that historically USA-manufactured tools, like Craftsman, and even plenty of Snap-on, Mac, etc. are being made in China. From entire tools to “global components” , I’d rather the entire thing be still be made in the USA in the same plant by the same people that made in before, instead of an entire factory being closed down and hundreds if not thousands of people being put out of work just so a company can make a few more cents in profit on each item sold.
I can see where there is a market for cheap tools, a cheap wrench set made in China or India is just fine for occasional use by people that just need the most basic of tools, but it’s deceptive and I would argue, morally and ethically wrong to take a historically USA-made tool from, say, Craftsman, and then make it over in China, to bring it back to the US, and sell it at the same price as the old USA-made tool was, and print “Made in China” really small on the back of the packaging to comply with country of origin laws but rely on the ignorance of most people that will think because Craftsman tools were made in the USA for decades before, that tool they are buying is still made in the USA now.
If Craftsman or any other tool brand is going to make cheap tools overseas, then at the very least they should be honest about it AND the consumer should at least benefit by getting a similar or still decent/useful quality tool at a much lower price.
I think you may need to compare the USA and oveseas BCT products to see what, if any, the quality differences are, before making a determination that you’d want to be using the overseas stuff in the first place. For all we know the company they are working with is the same one that’s making ripoffs of their designs already, and they aren’t even that great, but getting a cut of the profit beats not getting any of the profit and putting out the higher quality in overseas markets isn’t as important as putting out decent quality tools that people can afford.
firefly
I say little Stu put his stamp of approval on the wrench wherever that thing is made 🙂
I, too, concern about the quality of product when they are made in certain place in the world. With that in mind I have also seen plenty of crappy made USA product. I believe that any company that need to expand to a certain size will need to explore both options.
Stuart
That’s my son at 16 months. For reasons I cannot imagine, he loves tools. =)
firefly
I couldn’t think of any reasons either 🙂 His bright smile is definitely Made In USA quality for sure!
Nathan
well it goes with just about anything. Once they start making stuff via vendor overseas – it will grow and continue. Because someone either their vendor or another will make their product and sell it here anyway. china laws don’t work that well I don’t care who you think you are.
With things like electronics and the like I place significant blame on our EPA for over seas production. Not so much it’s a bad thing but more the whole lack of a good work process. (they nasty chemicals and processes needed to make processors, memory chips, PCB base etc)
with machining it’s a little different that’s a straight up labor cost difference more than anything.
Made in America doesn’t mean much to people in Germany, or France, or Japan – probably true to some degree yet I know a german that imported a Vette over there on purpose. and I know a guy in japan that will only fly on a Boeing product so I guess there’s a view for everyone. The boeing thing is a bigger irony though – Boeing planes are not made in america anymore than your jeep or F150, or Silverado.
Point there – it’s a global economy and while some of the rot you are fed via TV is based on truth – most of it is a sham. I mean that 787 that you purposely booked via American to fly from Miami to New York last week is 73% made in foreign land – which isn’t that far off from the A330 they traded you to because the 787 was borked on the ramp.
All the electronic components and the transmission of your new F150 made in Louisville KY were made elsewhere. Hell depending on they option content your engine might have been made elsewhere too.
So we don’t make as much as you think we do in america and that’s our own fault on a number of fronts. It’s a bother and fewer americans even try to look for where something’s made or put any relevance on where somethings made. We do because most of us here still make things. I mean the guy that will indeed make his own desk – is more likely to put some thought into where something was made that he puts his hands on.
The guy that goes to IKEA doesn’t give a crap – or notice that in the swedish wal-mart he just bought a unpronounceable named desk (ain’t that cute) but hey it’s actually made in china of press board too. Etc etc. I can’t even say too much because I drove to work to day in my Australian produced car.
Stuart
I buy stuff at IKEA, and yes I look at the labels. Sometimes it makes a difference, but not with the higher quality pieces.
We bought a couch from there, a spring broke off and we had to return it because they couldn’t fix it. The couch was made in the USA.
Some other IKEA stuff is made in the USA as well.
Nathan
but my point is you make stuff – so you look at the labels when you shop – even at ikea. but the guy that doesn’t make stuff or DIY – doesn’t look or care. The thought process isn’t there. The other bit – I know people that think everything in Ikea is made is sweden and thus better – irony they don’t drive a volvo or saab though. I’ve been through there a few times – there is IKEA stuff in my house.
Brian
At least everything you buy at IKEA is assembled in the USA, like Dewalt.
KL
I agree Bridge City’s claim of no drop in quality seems optimistic. And they will have to have “boots on the ground” everyday to oversee and QC. I hope they’ve read Poorly Made in China; the way the Chinese view the world, manufacturing and profit is difficult for any American to comprehend. Not assigning judgment, just saying different is DIFFERENT
toolPathy
Bridge City Tools’s items are so expensive, that they are way beyond the reach of most woodworkers. If they can make their items less expensive with similar levels of quality outside the US, then this would be a great service to all the woodworkers to be able to afford some of their items.
These are items that the average toolworker would never be able to afford otherwise. This is not just the case of a woodworker trying to save a few dollars only but a matter of all or none in having one of their tools.
Jim Felt
I wonder if they could offer two similar but distinct “levels” of their internally designed tools? One legacy Made “Here” and the more actual “user” friendly priced line sourced wherever.
Then they’d be able to offer the best of both worlds. Art and commerce.
Hmmmm.
ktash
Your son looks like he is ready to fix things! The global economy is the economy he will inherit. I’d love to see things go back to smaller scale with emphasis on quality and things that last. I have some old Craftsman tools that could be handed down, for instance. But will that ever come back? Still, I appreciate those who try, like Bridge City, even if I can’t afford them. I do buy Woodpecker occasionally, though not the real pricey stuff.
toolPathy
Yea, the real issue to me, is why could they not find a way to modernize their production in the United States to make it cheaper, while still made in the U.S.
Of course I can guess many reasons why not, but Lie Nielsen makes not as high quality tools, but at tremendously lower prices.
Jim Felt
Maybe because both or even most of companies we’re discussing here are based in very low unemployment areas? Like 3+% unemployment rates.
(Kirk Enterprises, however, is not.)
Stuart
I don’t think I’ve ever heard “Lie Nielsen” and “not as high quality” in that way before.
Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen, Bridge City Tools, Woodpeckers, and other such companies don’t produce anything at a massive scale. They’re smaller brands that tend to produce in (relatively) small batches.
Modernizing? In what way? Many of Bridge City Tools and Woodpeckers products are CNC machined. There’s a cost factored into the machining time. If the tools were instead forged or cast, they would be completely different tools requiring lots of additional processed to get them to the same quality.
Consider this. How much would it cost you or me to make a screwdriver? How much would it cost a knifemaker or someone else who has the proper tooling and heat treatment capabilities? How much would it cost Stanley?
Sure, they can make tools for cheaper, but not without changing their company, the tools, and everything about them.
toolPathy
Hmm, these arguments sound similar to what Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche said in the 80’s when Toyota crashed their parties with their low cost, high quality Lexus.
firefly
Um… You are talking about a multibillion dollars company with massive manufacturing facility. In those scenario, improvement in process and automation have much larger payoff. Most smaller company are already lean and mean. I am not saying there isn’t room for improvement, but the pay off will be much smaller.
toolPathy
My point was that every business can make arguments for why their current business model is the way it is and how it is difficult to lower costs.
Stuart
Nobody is making arguments. I’m explaining my views, my assessment.
While I might not be 100% accurate, I like to think that I’ve picked up some insight into how tool industry companies work.
Even larger companies can have difficulties expanding their manufacturing capacity. I remember Channellock importing screwdrivers because it was that or nothing. Years later they worked with a USA OEM to come out with new screwdrivers made here.
Hang Fire
Chinese OEM’s are infamous for quietly dropping quality after initial production meets specs, meaning the first run will always be the best run. (“Quality fade”) They are also infamous for saying “yes” but not rolling in requested quality improvements after initial tooling investments are made.
The only way around this seems to be have Taiwanese firms run the QA and Engineering in the plants in China. That requires a level of investment that makes offshoring less attractive.
For more details, see the book https://www.amazon.com/Poorly-Made-China-Insiders-Production/dp/0470928077 (ISBN-10: 0470928077
ISBN-13: 978-0470928073)
Jim Felt
Hang Fire.
Yes. And thanks for the link.
Joe R
Seriously I wish US based companies would stop outsourcing – simply stop! As an IT veteran of 20 years I can attest to the horrible delivery of software changes and the many friends I have seen displaced by this “cost savings” theory. Stop telling us it is cost savings – the price does not go down! Savings simply go to management incentives and Board of Directors.
From my DIY point of view, I don’t want to trust my safety to some poorly manufactured product. I will pay more for an all American made product IF the quality in my hand validates the price tag. I do so knowing that I am paying for a lot of ‘middlemen’ as well and that is why the end product costs so much more in the home center (convenience and immediate gratification) rather than eBay for example (some convenience with delayed gratification).
Ultimately, each manufacturer faces a tough decision in a free market. Do I continue to produce the absolute best that only the most appreciative craftsman will continuously purchase and remain loyal too (niche market-small workforce, small margins)? Or do I ‘sell out’ to compete on a global scale producing ‘good enough’ product that appeals to the masses, returns a better margin, employs more people…breaks more often and pisses off the true craftsman?
PLEASE tell RRS and the others to reconsider. We don’t need more 1%’s. We need hardworking American’s who stand up to foreign entities that blatantly copy their product. We need to support them as well. I’ll buy less over-hyped and overpriced Apple crap if it means a true craftsman can get the best square, planer or other well made tool they require to re-build this country. An App can’t build a house, bridge, office building, road, cabinet, etc. An American with the best tools can!
Brian Auerbach
every premium brand inevitably decides they can raise margins and increase volume by “rounding” a few sharp corners and lowering cost.
Maybe it should work, maybe they really can cut costs without sacrificing quality, but the market doesnt care. We see what we want to see and we suck at objectively measuring quality and performance, partly because of our own bias, but also because few of us afford to sample multiple brands, we’d rather spend more if only to appease our guilt that any shortcomings of our choice could be attributed to our thrift.
Ed S
I don’t have a problem with Chinese made goods in that, historically with most Asian manufacturing, it will get better as the market will ultimately be the deciding factor.
Recall that Toyota, Nissan (Datsun) and Honda were all criticized of “jap-crap” in the 70’s until most realized that American cars were inefficient (Honda and Datsun had great mileage vs huge GM and Ford cars). As the 80’s came about, Toyota HiLux trucks were the rage, along with Subaru. Japanese quality was improving, and like their stereos, getting better, in demand and having features no one thought of. Then the American car makers, feeling greedy and threatened, began to get tariffs and import restrictions. Well, Japan got around it, because the consumer wanted value, mileage and longevity. The first mass-produced cars getting over 100K miles and going were Japanese (this is based on PPR parts per repair). Today, 200K or more is not surprising.
So, now we see Hyundai (Korean) cars surpassing $35K in price. I recall the first Hyundai’s were under $9K ($5999 on one model). They had reputation of junk transmissions. But eventually, Hyundai offered 10yr warranties and people stuck with them. All I see for small SUVs are Sorrento’s, Santa Fe’s, and Honda CRVs.
Back to Chinese manufacturing, my only caveat is that China is Communist run, and this means unfair trade, sub-labor, and corrupt backing. In the US, we have Federal grants, funds, tax-deductions, along with certain states offering tax-free enterprise zones and perks to “lure” startups to base (and create jobs…aka taxes) there. (can you say not much difference?)
Honestly, its unsustainable to think we (US and even EU) can make quality tools at market prices with overhead like pensions/benefits and still be competitive and green. If someone comes along and says, Look, we can make same tool, with same materials, just not triple plated and polished, less fancy packaging and costs to place in stores (rebates to distributors, resellers, etc.). So you still make a profit, someone else does the rest. Your name, your tool, made for less. If my company, hell, I would be expanding a portfolio to sell!
The point is, is it still a 6 point socket made of same steel? How many have atleast one Horror-freight item that still works?
(I have some Tekton Impact Sockets… 1/10 the price as a Snap-on/Mac tools set…guess what? I am not a mechanic or shop. And the sockets work great when I need them. Are they USA made? Maybe. But if not, I don’t care. I saved $$$$…and that is what scares me. Does this mean I am a commie?)
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/tekton-tools-manager-interview/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
Ed S
One more thing: I just talked with a co-worker that has spent a few years in Asia (China, S.Korea and Japan) and his take is, China will make something good the first 2-3 years, then it will cut corners and substitute sub-standard materials then next year and after. That is how it works in China and this is intentional and calculated. They don’t care because, they already got their money.
Goodnightjohnboy
There should be no mixed feelings about it. Its %100 un-American & they should be charged with treason. How can individuals like the John dude you mentioned ripoff their own country and then let some zipperheads get the licensing & manufacturing for the same American made product, but sold at much cheaper prices anywhere other than America? Seems like a man that is taking advantage of us due to the fact that not much is made here anymore & he’s knowingly exploiting it by charging us double. But if your foreign, you get it for a reasonable price. Treason. Capital Punishment. There’s a thin line between greed & capitalism these days. In fact it’s the same thing because the only thing that drives any company in today’s society is greed & only greed. It is sad to see that most of today’s American company owners no longer care about who can make the best product with our own resources & sell it for the most affordable price. I don’t know how it ever got to the point to where %90 of stuff we own is foreign made. 50 years ago it was vice versa. Or how its now more important to find the cheapest foreign labor using the cheapest materials for manufacturing & then sell it right back to us at a premium rate that far exceeds the quality of the product. China doesn’t pick what materials to use to make the product, the American business owners do. Which goes to show that built to last quality means very little. I also thought American companies couldn’t do business with communist- ran countries because of government sanctions. But if you grease enough palms, those sanctions turn into trade treaties & the government turns the other way. Pathetic. I still have a very hard time understanding how just about everything sold & bought in America ain’t made in America. And if it is, it with the use of “global materials”. Which means the made in USA on the label has nowhere near the same value or sense of pride as it did in the past. Why even print the label. In fact it looks worse than made in China. The worst part is that the imported materials used to assemble it, used to be made here. But I guess it made more sense to shut down American factories and lay off millions of the hard working Americans who drove a good portion of the American economy. Only because labor and materials are much cheaper in other countries that don’t give a damn about the American economy. Then they got the nerve to put a “made in USA using global materials” label on the same product that was %100 foreign made a
year ago. Wow, what a great way to give a sense of pride. How did it ever get to the point to where we must rely on the very same products to be imported that we used to manufacture ourselves? GREED. Some real food for thought – what are we mass producing & exporting to China that they rely on? Or any of the foreign countries that make everything we own? I ain’t saying that foreign made products are inferior to American made products. And unfortunately it ultimately boils down to how greedy the companies chairmen are & whether quality means more than profit. Makes me feel ashamed to be an American because we let it happen.
Stuart
Treason? Capital punishment? Really?
(Unrelated, but if you change your name back from Mr…, I’ll take you off the “requires manual approval” moderation list. Your posts have been clean for some time, thank you!)
Jim Felt
Lordie. Lordie. The misconceptions of commerce, culture, “free trade”, marketing and certainly the buying power of HD and Lowes are strong with this soliloquy…
fred?
Grady
NO! I would not and will not buy tools made in china ! For half the price you are getting at best half the quality! I do my do diligence and research and try at all costs avoid import tools.
As for question two, see first comment.
And for question number three, I don’t like the idea. However if a company chooses to go that route, it should only be done as a subsidiary to the parent company. Say for example, Bridge City Tools International. At least you would know. After all for half the price you are getting at best half the quality!
Ron
“Bridge City Tools has found a Chinese manufacturer that can produce their manual table saw at such high quality that it would be indistinguishable from a USA-made saw.”
I once read an interview with a Sr. Grizzly representative in, I’m pretty sure, Wood Magazine. Must have been early 90’s. One topic was movement of tool production to Taiwan. These points have stuck with me over the years:
– For quality control, you must have your own independent inspector on site.
– If you find something wrong, the factory folks generally don’t argue with you.
– It is all on you to find something.
It is always “Buyer beware.”
You won’t survive if you don’t understand their ethics. I’m NOT judging, simply pointing out that assumptions are generally bad.
Not all that long ago I read that customers still open boxes at the store and plug things in to ensure they work. Was a reminder of all of the above.
For me, a non-pro, the ethical dilemma is wanting to support what’s left of the middle class in the USA against spending myself out of the middle class on a tool I may only need for one job . . . .
Goodnightjohnboy
I was joking about the treason thing & the capital punishment. But to knowingly double or triple the price of an item because of where it was made, makes it seem like business owners like that John dude are exploiting the fact that not much is made here in America, & a sense of pride is worth double because it was made here. An American capitalizing on a Made in USA exploitation. Yeah, that person needs a good beatdown so that individual can understand the consequences of screwing your own. Its awesome to see American business owners keeping it 100 in the USA. But that doesn’t mean that its worth double the amount of what it would cost if it’s made in Mexico. Slumlord American business owners that jack up the price in America just because its made in America shouldn’t be allowed to do so without consequences.
Stuart
I don’t think he’s pricing his products outlandishly – I think that he’s designing them exactly as he wants them to be, and setting the price based on that. Maybe there’s a premium built in, it’s hard to say.
His tools aren’t mass produced, which means there are none of the typical cost savings associated with that. The per-part cost is not going to get appreciable cheaper with added volume.
RonboJin
I called Bridge City today (23May2021) and was told NO Bridge City tools are made in the USA.
So sad.