In a new lawsuit filed this week, SawStop alleges that Felder is infringing upon their table saw safety technology patents, and is seeking payment for damages and legal costs.
The company alleges that the Felder Preventative Contact System, such as featured in the company’s Kappa 450, 550, and K 845 S sliding table saws, is infringing upon 3 of their unexpired patents.
Felder PCS table saw flesh detection and blade-contact avoidance technology has been on the market since 2021. Felder first announced their PCS technology in 2019. It is advertised as requiring no manual maintenance, and can be reset immediately after activation.
Advertisement
SawStop, a company that is “Committed to Your Safety,” recently said – in the context of potentially being in the way of competitive compliance towards an active injury mitigation (AIM) safety standard – that they will “not allow [one specific] patent to be an obstacle to a safer future.”
US lawmakers recently introduced a bill that would prohibit the US Consumer Produce Safety Commission (CPSC) from implementing a rule related to proposed table saw safety until at least 5 years after a list of SawStop patents have expired or dedicated to the public. The “Preserving Woodworking Traditions and Blocking Government-Mandated Monopolies Act” has been drafted but not yet voted on.
1 out of 3 of the patents referenced in SawStop’s new lawsuit is referenced in that bill, and is included in the list of patents the Power Tool Institute (PTI) has argued could stand in the way of competitive development should AIM tech be mandated by the US CPSC.
Felder is accused of infringing upon these 3 patents:
7,098,800 – Retraction system and motor position for use with safety systems for power equipment
7,225,712 – Motion detecting system for use in a safety system for power equipment
Advertisement
10,981,238 – Actuators for power tool safety systems
It is the ‘238 patent that is included in the PTI and lawmaker’s list of patents that could potentially contribute to a SawStop monopoly should blade contact avoidance tech be mandated as part of a safety ruling.
Felder’s PCS-featured sliding table saws are designed – and priced – for industrial customers and environments.
In a recent letter to CPSC Commissioner Feldman (PDF), the Felder Group said that “at the moment the additional cost [of their PCS AIM table saw safety technology] to the consumer is more than $8,000.00.”
This is more than the price of SawStop’s top of the line Industrial Cabinet Saw equipped with their most powerful motor, largest fence and table extension, and larger sliding table attachment.
Meaning, it is difficult to consider SawStop and Felder as direct competitors.
The lawsuit was filed in Oregon, with case number 3:24-cv-00796. The CPSC added a copy of it to their public record via PDF.
Update: The lawsuit was hastily dismissed in July 2024.
Mike (that one)
This is so very boring – the issue, not the coverage as the only ones losing (fingers) is the consumer. SS/Festool only cares about the maintaining profit margins. Yes, they produce great products but they are in no way invested in our actual safety.
IronWood
Yeah, suing a company that’s trying to make safer products that don’t compete with you directly pretty clearly shows the SS priorities here.
Stuart
I told my wife about today’s post, and accidentally called them LAWSTOP.
blocky
HAH!
JR Ramos
That needs a meme and a t-shirt and a bumper sticker!
JoeM
I’m stealing that moniker, Stuart. Just know, that was brilliant!
Mike
How about SAWSUIT?
Peter
Good one!
IronWood
Don’t worry everyone, SawStop is just here to help. It’s all about safety. The early litigious days are behind them. We need more regulation and less competition. So happy I bought a Jet Xacta.
Mike+I
Festool believes that safety is the mist important priority for any tool, so long as they make a profit from it. Otherwise, “let them lose fingers”. A company with no integrity.
Luke
SawStop is doing a really good job of tanking any consumer goodwill it may have built up. Who can honestly look favorably on a company that actively stomps out innovation like this?
James
“Lawstop” 😂
Bob
Good bet the people in SawStop trying to get this safety features required by the CPSC were not talking to the lawyer’s who filed this lawsuit 🙂
Stuart
SawStop’s CEO was at the hearing and has been sending communications to the CPSC Commissioners. I doubt they aren’t in the loop about this new lawsuit.
Curiously, why are they suing Felder *now* and not 3 years ago when the Felder PCS tech first launched?
fred
Maybe Felder has sold enough units in those intervening years for Sawstop to now consider them a threat – or more likely a target as a source of a profitable (for Sawstop) licensing opportunity.
Jimmie
My guess is that if you sue too early, you’ll have a difficult time proving lost revenue because the other company has sold many infringing products yet. So you might win the lawsuit but your payday is small.
If you wait until the other company has a few years’ worth of sales, then you can more easily demonstrate lost revenue.
luma
LawStop’s founder, former CEO, and the dude they sent to testify in front of congress is also a practicing patent attorney. There is ZERO chance he was unaware of this, and this isn’t the first such product they have sued out of existence. They are not the good guys they claim to be.
Bk
Capacitance touch systems are in elevators and electronics for years. How can th we y claim a patent on that? The only thing they can claim is the way it stops the blade. It sounds like Feder pulls away which is different then SS. I agree with others Fesstool are over priced show off tools that at the price point are silly to buy.
Goodie
I’m going to push back just a little on the Festool tools being “over priced show off tools that at the price point are silly to buy.” Let’s take impact drivers. A Festool Impact Driver kit can be had for about $385.00 today. It includes the impact driver, two 5ah batteries (good ones), high speed charger, and a systainer case. Already have the batteries and charger? You can get it “tool only” with a systainer for around $220.00. Systainers of this size typically cost around $100 to buy seperately. I wish Festool offered these tools without Systainer, as there are certain tools where they are unneeded (impact driver).
A Milwaukee Fuel Impact kit costs $299. It has the impact driver, a charger (not their top of line), two 5 ah batteries (not their top of line), and a blow molded case. I would throw that blow molded case away immediately. Tool only, you pay around $150.00 for the Fuel Impact driver (no case).
I see the Festool driver as very competitive once I remove the price of the Systainer. Also with Festool, you only get high quality fast chargers, excellent batteries, and cases that are not blow-molded crap. Comparing Festool to DeWalt and Makita’s pro level tools, I see fairly similar comparisons to what I’ve mentioned with Milwaukee.
All brands at this professional level aren’t cheap. The price difference between Festool and the other brands evaporates when you add in the price segmented batteries like Dewalt’s (“XR”, “PowerStack”) and Milwaukee’s (“Red Lithium High Output”) or the segmented chargers like Dewalt’s various chargers(bargain basement, 8amp, 12amp, etc) and Milwaukee’s (“Rapid Charger” and Super Charger”).
Mike
I’d like to push back on your analysis. I don’t have any experience with TID 18, but would appreciate some first hand comparisons to other makers’ offerings.
Stuart’s review was one of the first things to pop up when searching. My reading describes a capable, basic tool.
Pretty much every manufacturer has one or more capable, basic, brushless impact driver these days. Often available as a kit WITH a drill for $100-200.
Check out Tool Box Buzz’s impact driver test. TID 18 is absolutely outclassed by most other manufacturers. Depending on what you’re doing the Festool could absolutely be “pro level”, but it compares with older, mid level or pro-sumer models from everybody else. As Stuart and others have pointed out these brushless mid range tools are often more than adequate for just about everybody.
I may be missing something, but it seems like Fuel and Dewalt XR are around $100 bare tool. Obviously both offer great promotions in kits regularly. Metabo HPT WH18DC is $150-175 in kit. Makita TD173 from Japan is $165, Makita XDT19 is $125. Bosch (and maybe others?) are offering fine tuning of modes. These all seem to be superior tools for a fraction of the cost.
I also don’t see the appeal of a big systainer to store an impact kit. I’d prefer in a rack above a work bench, in a do it all or task specific tote or backpack, or in a tool bag with other carpentry tools and batts/charger.
No need to justify your preference for Kermit colored Euro trash. Just kidding, I’m appreciative of Festool’s innovations in dust collection, ergonomics, track saws, loose tenons, removeable power cords, etc. (in the distant past?). I’m just not convinced their impact drivers are anything but a decent tool at a dismal value.
Michael F
I have the newish Festool CXS12 installation driver. It’s a 12V driver similar to a Bosch FlexiClick or the M12 installation driver. Just by looking at it, you could wave it away as a “decent tool at a dismal price.” However, that really just doesn’t do the tool justice. Some things you just have to experience. I haven’t used the TID18, but in my (small) experience, Festool can be worth the price.
Goodie
That’s a fair take. I think my point still stands that at regular price, there’s not a huge difference. I’ve used the Dewalt XR and the Milwaukee Fuel drivers, I prefer the feel of the Festool. I agree the TID18 doesn’t necessarily have top end performance, but it is good enough and has excellent ergonomics. I personally don’t hung up on the torque specs. In fairness, I don’t a Festool Impact driver, though. I picked that because it’s a tool many people care about, and pricing comparison for non-sale items was fairly straightforward.
The real value in Festool is in their dust extractors and sanders. And in their speciality tools like the Domino. They are actually a very good price compared to Mirka’s offerings in that space.
kent_skinner
>> I agree with others Fesstool are over priced show off tools that at the price point are silly to buy.
Festool haters are just as bad as the HF haters.
I bought a Domino so I can show off? No, I bought it because it makes loose tenon joints quickly with dead on accuracy and precision. It’s an absolute game changing tool. If you make furniture for a living and don’t have a Domino, you’re losing money. There’s *nothing* on the market that dos the same job as quickly and with the same precision.
Do you call a framing carpenter with a nail gun a “show off”? Or do you think they are just being efficient by using a more efficient tool than a hammer?
Look at the Festool dust extractor vacs. They cost pretty much the same as any other high quality dust extractor vac.
Is every single thing from Festool the absolute best? Nope. But I’d consider buying into their system if I was a cabinet installer. I say “system” because they entire product line works together – the tools that have detachable cords use the same cord and dust port – so you can switch your sander, router and track saw at the hose/plug end. It’s more efficient, and gets you out the door faster. The excellent dust collection on every tool allows you to spend less time cleaning the client’s house.
Do I have a Festool router, sander and all that? Nope. Not worth the cost to me, and i don’t work in other people’s houses where efficiency is a high priority.
I use a variety of brands and the fact that my Milwaukee vac won’t connect to my Milwaukee sander without an adapter is painfully stupid. It’s a bunch of tools that use the same battery – it’s not a “system” that works together.
Rob
Most of products are priced in line with each other. Often Makita and Milwaukee are more expensive than Festool. The dedicated cabinetry/woodworking/finish carpentry products are significantly cheaper than their competition (Lamello, Mirka, Mafell and etc). Their multihead drills cost more than the knockoffs but they’re also noticeably more expensive to manufacture. Their routers are the ELU of our generation and priced accordingly. Take a look at what people want for their inferior tracksaws. Sometimes a savings of $50. Sometimes more. Their brushed sanders are generally more than home store fair…but also generally a bit nicer. Adjusted for inflation, you’d be calling the late 80’s Porter Cable tools overpriced show off products.
Goodie
I don’t get this. I like the SawStop technology and the saws. Hate the litigious character of the company. It’s hard to see Felder as a direct competitor to SawStop when they serve different market segments. I am curious to see if SawStop will put out a press release that says they are defending their patent rights until regulatroy requirements change…
Michael F
I simply must point out, again, that the guy from SawStop is named…Steve Gass. His name is incredibly apt, considering that he testifies in front of Congress that they won’t stifle competition with patents, turns around, and immediately resumes stifling competition with patents. He is Gass lighting all of us. The jokes write themselves.
TomD
Sawstop is bringing down the Festool name, they need to reign this litigious boil of a company in before it destroys it completely.
Jronman
If they are pressing legal action against Felder, why aren’t they also suing Altendorf? Many already have a poor view on SawStop because of all the lawsuits they have started but to say we wont sue on this one specific patent then to proceed to sue someone after the announcement was made is going to make things that much worse.
DoubleD2001
I’m pretty sure the Altendorf technology is based on optical sensors and not capacitance like the saw stop and felder are
JoeM
And this is why I refuse to ever purchase a LAWSTOP product. This is underhanded, and the ends do not justify the means. The “good intentions” excuse was dried up years ago. Now it’s purely a corrupt company action. They’re a Hostile Negotiator. That’s when you just leave the negotiating table and let them rot.
Thanks for keeping us updated, Stuart! *Snicker* LAWSTOP… Brilliant…
James
Volvo patented seat belts years ago and would not charge fees for any auto maker to use the technology because it was too important a safety feature. Sawstop is being petty.
Peter
Yeah but that is very rare and most companies have, are and will not do this.
I like to see someone explain that to their shareholders.
We have this invention that will revolutionize and redefine a very important market and is an absolute cash cow and we decided to give it away for free after we spend a lot of r&d plus money on it.
Everyone in favor ….
MM
The big difference is that seat belts were not the core of Volvo’s business model. Volvo made cars, seat belts were just one of countless features that go into a car. They could still go on selling cars even if they gave up any IP claims to the seat belt.
On the other hand, this sort of injury prevention system is the very core of Sawstop’s business. It’s specifically why they exist. Asking Sawstop to give up those patents would be like asking Volvo to give up all its patents, not just those pertaining to seatbelts. Volvo had much more to offer beyond seatbelts, they could afford to share that technology without affecting their core business. Sawstop has only their “seatbelts”.
Nathan
So any actuator for any power tool safety system
Any
Table saw end mill band saw etc. I light curtains and motor reverse relays from the 90s say high. If worded that loose and allowed all of their patents need to be removed
.bob
Character of the company aside, SawStop must defend their parents or lose them.
ColeTrain
From the law offices of Steve Ass
Bob+Hinden
Several of the comments appear to be confusing SawStop and Festool. They are separate companies both owned by TTS Tooltechnic Systems. TTS Tooltechnic Systems also owns Shaper Origin, Tanos and Cleantec.
Stuart
Matt Howard is CEO of TTS Tooltechnic Systems North America. He came from SawStop and has also been interacting with the CPSC regarding table saw safety rulemaking process.
Basically, the head of TTS Tooltechnic Systems in North America is also the head of SawStop.
I spoke with him on several occasions, He seems nice and very reasonable, and I don’t believe he deserves to be dogpiled or vilified. I mention that he’s leader of both TTS in USA and SawStop for the sake of accuracy, and not to make him a target for anyone’s ire.
This new lawsuit lacks context, and unfortunately we’re unlikely to learn more, as brands tend to be disinclined to discuss ongoing legal actions.
In a vacuum, if Gass never lobbied the CPSC, SawStop never sued Bosch, and there wasn’t the looming possibility of a mandate affecting all table saws, what would we think about this new lawsuit?
I don’t think it’s wrong for SawStop to seek to protect its patents. It’s the context of everything else that makes this seem extremely unfriendly to end users and commercial businesses.
If Felder’s products are blocked from the market, what’s the alternative? Surely not a SawStop – a cabinet saw with sliding table is not the same as a commercial-grade sliding table saw.
Dan
A distinction without a difference.
s
unfortunately, i see both sides in this.
saw stop does need to defend their patents to maintain them. as a company, whose only existence is based on selling saws with this technology, it seems they MUST sue to stay alive. but patent law is pretty clear that if one doesn’t defend their patents, the owner of the patent loses the rights to that patent.
the odd part is that it’s been filed after the products existed on the market for 3-6 years depending on how one views the technology timetable.
but at the same time, it highlights and plays out the exact issues and fears that were identified during the previous CPSC meeting.
saw stop has attempted to save face by indicating they’re building products to help people, but don’t seem to be very friendly to any business people that would like to use people-saving technology.
in my opinion, the outcome of this particular case really doesn’t matter. the fact that the suit was filed at all is a whole row of nails in the coffin of the CPSC ruling.
saw stop has made it clear that anything related to them is kryptonite to the rest of the industry. no one wants extra litigation for making things, and sawstop filing the ruling now indicates that if the CPSC ruling were to pass, all brands would be faced with the choice to either pay exorbitant licensing fees to saw stop to avoid litigation, or exit the market altogether.
if that were to happen, the chinese knockoff’s that are so hard to litigate would end up ruling the bottom end of the market, terrible alignment, wobbly bearings, uneven tables, and all…
Brian Wiest
If Sawstop was actually “committed to safety” they wouldn’t sue EVERYONE that comes out with a device that protects users from harm. They didn’t patent a specific device so don’t say they’re just protecting their intellectual property. They patented “any technology that prevents harm by detection of flesh” which is ambiguous AF. The ONLY thing they’re committed to protecting is their money. And they charge ridiculous amounts of money to “protect” you. Bosch came out with a system almost a decade ago now that didn’t use the same tech to detect an imminent danger to the user but Sawstop successfully sued them because they claim intellectual ownership of the very idea of using a safety system to stop the blade from harming the user. Simple greed. I hope they get sued for having a monopoly.
Mike
I agree, the company seems to be a patenting and lawsuit machine (not surprising with the leadership’s background). They are very smart innovators as well, who have undoubtedly saved lots of fingers.
I’m no attorney, but I understand a patent gives the owner a legal monopoly for 20 years. Often inventors will constantly innovate and improve their products over time, of course patenting these new incremental “invention” changes.
My problem with SAWSUIT and others relates to the number of patents they file, and the aggressiveness in suing everybody with products that seem to, as Brian says, produce the same outcome with very different approaches and technology.
The sheer number of patents filed by them is evidence of this… they want everyone to know they’re patent experts and extremely litigious and very willing to tie you up in court for years should you threaten their monopoly.
They appear, with their insane amount of patents, to be trying to patent everything related to their product in order to 1. keep others from offering similar products and 2. keep their lawsuit machine monopoly running indefinitely.
I believe patent and copyright protections are vital to assuring creators their time and energy will bear (them, in their lifetime) fruit. Disney’s power plays to endlessly extend the copyright length speaks to simple greed. I’m pretty sure Bob Iger never met Walt Disney, and having millions of dollars tied up in lobbying and lawsuits rather than content creation just serves to stifle creativity both inside the company and for society at large.
I suspect SAWSUIT started out consumed by a desire to create a safe table saw and somewhere along the way became consumed with everlasting patent protection of it. When doubt started to creep in, they have begun to crow for CPSC mandated licensing before their window closes.
I don’t see how anyone could say they definitely maximized their windfall by refusing to license.
They have a great product and have made lots of money, but they could have perhaps made more money and would have obviously saved exponentially more fingers by now.
The most obnoxious aspect of their recent behavior are their vague assurances given their hyper litigious character, and their painfully transparent, hypocritical pandering in the name of safety for all.
Mike
A rationale patent system assures an inventor (and investors) that innovation will be rewarded.
A SAWSUIT manipulated patent system assures innovation will be litigated.
Kurt
I thought about purchasing a Saw Stop last year to replace my old Delta Contractor’s saw. The two things that stopped me were the price and their business practices.
I ended up getting a Laguna Fusion F2 instead. With the riving knife and blade guard, it’s far safer than the old Delta, it runs smoothly, and it’s much quieter.
I’m very happy with it, especially after I built a folding outfeed table for it.
Is it as safe as a Saw Stop? No. If I put my finger into the blade, it will cut it off. I still need to use my common sense when operating such a dangerous machine.
Frank D
I have long decided, sawstop won’t get a sale from me, no matter the price or what I am shopping for. Their stance has been counter to their mantra; and the whole push to be the legal monopoly and yet again suing other companies. Yeah. Nope! Esrly days I wanted to buy one, waited for the small version that they promised but never came … anyhow. Done with them.
Shane
Hmmm…I gave SawStop the benefit of the doubt when this started. Doesn’t seem like a smart move. If you’re actively seeking a rule change, it would seem that the optics of ANOTHER patent infringement claim would be damaging. It really crystallizes their true intent of creating a monopoly on table saws. It’s a pretty crass manipulation they are trying to pull off in the open. The robber baron days are over.
Hopefully
George
Seven years ago I cut a quarter of my thumb off on my spinning blade of death.
I remember that day vividly, the deputy that was sent into my shop to find my thumb saw the blood and started to vomit. The paramedic who rode in the back of the ambulance asked to see the stub and had me stop opening my hand cause he started to get the dry heaves. The chief of EMS came to the hospital to see my thumb because he heard the page go out and had to see it for himself but left quickly. The ER doctor who gave me 5 latacain shots, and did her best to stop the bleeding and stitch the skin over the bone kept asking me if it hurts to which I finally asked her why do you keep asking. She told me that most guys who come in here with this type of trauma are usually screaming as if on their death bed.
Bottom line to this is I still have the same spinning blade of death as it keeps me aware of how quickly things can go sideways. I don’t ever wish I had a DeathStop. I do at times wish I hadn’t drank 4 cups of coffee that morning though.
Kyle
As a few others have mentioned, patents must be defended to be maintained. Seriously, failing to defend a patent when a company knows or should have known about the infringement can be construed in court as implicit license/permission. If one group infringes and is allowed to get away with it (perhaps because their application was not a market competitor) another group (perhaps a direct competitor) could use that as a defense against an infringement claim by the patent holder later on.
It’s worth remembering that the goal of an infringement suit isn’t necessarily to keep a product off the market. Getting Felder to agree to a modestly priced license agreement rather than fight the infringement claim in court would still be a win for SawStop. Even if it didn’t cost Felder much, that precedent would be useful for SawStop in future legal action and a strong signal to the market that if you want to sell an AIM saw you have to pay to play.
Johnez
I would ask who’s bought a license? And why is that? Saw stop might save your finger but they want an arm and a leg for that license.
eddiesky
I wish some of these “youtube” woodworker influencers that received Sawstop table saws would wake up that they shilled for a litigious company more about sales than saving your fingers.
Rob
This lawsuit is only getting attention because of Sawstop’s litigious reputation on the internet. It would be insightful to see how many patent lawsuits Festool is involved in at any given moment. I’d imagine they’re suing dozens while dozens are suing them, atm. No different than Samsung and Apple, power tool companies sue each other more often than they brush their teeth. I wouldn’t be surprised if Festool found they may be infringing a Felder patent and leveraged their own patents so they can make a clean swap.
Joe A
Just one more reason not to support SawStop. I’ll continue to risk my appendages on principle alone.