I have been working with the latest pro-grade cordless power tool innovations from several pro brands, and feel that Dewalt and Milwaukee have pulled way ahead of their competition.
Dewalt Powerpack and Milwaukee Forge 8Ah batteries both feature tabless Li-ion cells and deliver superb performance.
It has simply been a joy to not have to worry about battery power, runtime, or endurance anymore.
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Both brands have distinctions. For example, Dewalt has modern high-performing pouch cell PowerStack batteries for when size and weight are high priorities, and Milwaukee has a Super Charger with Cool Cycle feature that allows for very rapid charging with little downtime.
It would also be unfair to describe the Dewalt Powerpack and Milwaukee M18 Forge 8Ah batteries as similar, because they have very different designs and engineering.
Still, the tabless cells in both should contribute towards similar performance, at least in a general sense and compared to batteries with cells that have “tabbed” electrodes.
I found myself saying a lot of the same things in separate posts, and so it made sense to simply combine the two into a single discussion.
In a nutshell, tabless cell batteries can deliver more power and run cooler, thanks to how the Li-ion cells are engineered.
Bosch – which has yet to launch their 18V tabless cell battery in the USA – put together great visuals that help to illustrate this.
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I don’t expect most tool users to be familiar with battery cell engineering; just know that tabless battery cells – at least those in the latest pro-grade cordless power tool batteries – are capable of delivering higher power. They also operate cooler under the same load as earlier batteries with tabbed electrodes.
Every cordless power tool brand has touted the higher performance of their tabless batteries.
Depending on the tool being used, you really can feel and hear the difference. Under demanding applications, tabless cell batteries don’t bog down, and feel like they’ve got more muscle.
However, despite the obvious benefits, not every cordless power tool brand has launched tabless batteries. Some only launched tabless batteries overseas but not yet in the USA, and others haven’t made any announcements at all.
On top of delivering impressive power and performance, both Dewalt and Milwaukee are running Black Friday and holiday season promos that make their latest and greatest tech more affordable.
That’s the main reason for this post – I’ve been getting questions that more or at less ask whether these new batteries are worth buying, and the answer is a definitive YES, at least in my opinion.
There’s a catch, however, and it’s that they’re a bit pricey.
The deals help with that, and quite a bit for some of the promos I’ve seen.
It seems to me that Dewalt and Milwaukee are both putting a lot of marketing dollars towards making their next-gen batteries more enticing to tool users, especially anyone looking to buy into a new cordless power tool system.
Frankly speaking, Dewalt and Milwaukee have been fiercely competing against each other, and it’s clear by now that they’ve left other brands in their dust.
Other pro-grade cordless power tool brands will surely launch tabless batteries of their own, or at least most of them will, and I’m sure most will (eventually) bring competing batteries to the USA.
But how many brands can do that and also subsidize the cost with aggressive Black Friday deals and discounts?
If you’re thinking about buying a tabless battery, whether for Dewalt’s 20V Max cordless power tool system, Milwaukee’s M18 system, or Ryobi 18V if you’re a DIYer, take a close look this holiday season. Or, plan to wait until the next promos, which might not be until this time next year.
Here are a couple of the deals that I think are going to sway a lot of tool users this holiday shopping season:
Milwaukee M18 Super Charger with 2x Forge 8Ah Batteries – $349 at Home Depot
Milwaukee M18 Forge 12Ah Battery with Free 8Ah Battery – $249 at Home Depot
Dewalt Powerpack 8Ah Battery FREE with Select Tools – at Home Depot
Dewalt XR 3-Speed Drill with Powerpack 8Ah Battery Kit – $279* at Lowe’s
* Personally, I would instead get the Dewalt DCD1007 drill kit deal at Home Depot for $349, as it comes with a free second Powerpack battery.
In June, I put together a roundup of pro-grade power tool brands working on tabless batteries, see: These Cordless Tool Brands are Leading the Rest in Battery Tech.
Following is a quick update with the latest info.
All Brands that Launched Tabless Batteries in the USA
- Dewalt 20V Max PowerPack 8Ah
- Milwaukee M18 Forge 8Ah, 12Ah
- Ryobi 18V Edge 4Ah
- Ridgid 18V 4Ah
Pro Brands that Announced or Launched Tabless Batteries OUTSIDE the USA
- Bosch 18V 8Ah
- Makita 40V Max XGT
- Metabo 18V
- Metabo HPT 36V MultiVolt
Pro Brands that are Lagging Behind, with NO Announcements
- Festool 18V
- Flex 24V Max
- Hercules (Harbor Freight) 20V Max
- Hilti Nuron 22V
- Makita 18V
ElectroMike
This is my first post after many years of enjoying your articles. Thank you very much! I couldn’t pass up the chance to be the first comment.
I have an older 18V Bosch set using the old in the bottom of the grip style batteries with a central plastic post and I’m on my 2nd string of aftermarket batteries. The thing that’s done them in, in the past are the tack welded tabs joining each cell to the next one. I had one of those crack and I had to solder it back together. I’ve had another one get so hot on a reciprocating saw that it deformed a spot in the plastic slightly. I’ve waited a long time to replace them, so if I can get 8+Ah batteries with no tabs that’s going to be really awesome. Sometimes I wait to upgrade something and it winds up really being worth it as the technology drastically improves. I’m an electrical engineer, so to me this sounds like the most significant improvement in cordless power tools since we first got Lithium ion cells.
Stuart
“Tabless” refers to the electrodes within the Li-ion battery cells, not how the cells are electrically and mechanically bonded to each other or the battery pack.
Even in that regard, tabless is somewhat of a misnomer, as there are many overlapping stacked tabs.
I haven’t looked inside the Dewalt battery yet, but I’ve examined teardowns of the Milwaukee Forge, and the cells feature multi-spot laser-welding. I wouldn’t call them tabs, but cells do have to be welded to an external structure in order to be electrically coupled together.
From the sounds of it, your tools are quite old. None of the batteries coming out are going to fit the stem-style form factor of your tools, and so you’d have to upgrade to the modern slide-pack system.
Bosch and other pro cordless power tool brands have launched numerous generations of batteries that can deliver far more power than the ones originally designed to fit Bosch stem-style power tools. I don’t believe failed welds are a common mode of failure, and battery pack engineering has advanced so far that I’m not sure it’s much of a concern these days.
Ken
Also worth noting that Bosch’s current battery design uses a copper “plate” to connect each battery. I don’t think each battery is tack welded to the plate – just friction fit, so no possibility of broken solder joints between cells. Stuart has an old post that shows a photo:
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/bosch-core18v-4ah-compact-battery-pack-and-8ah-teaser/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
Jeff
Have you notice the batteries cost more then the tools….? I just purchased from Lowe’s a kit with charger and two 5 amp batteries , Dewalt…(special sale) get two free tools..so I choose two more batteries..each battery cost $199 each…crazy.. whole thing came out to $292.00 with tax..
The free choice of tools ..the battery was a 5 amp XR …not sure if power stack…
Now I have 4 batteries for my mini chain saw. that takes Dewalt batteries..the mini- chainsaw was under $120 for two…Purchased on Amazon..
Stuart
This Lowe’s deal?
The batteries are NOT $199 each; Amazon (direct) has the 2-pack for $128 right now. https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCB205-2-Lithium-Battery-2-Pack/dp/B00KQU1ENG/?tag=toolguyd-20
I’d say that $149 is the average price for the 2-pack. $279 for the starter kit and 2 tools is a good deal, but Lowe’s representation that the starter kit was $319 and that the tools are completely free is not exactly accurate.
DuhWalter
Toolup has a great deal on the Dewalt 8ah Powerpack for free with the Light box + storage bin. $219.
Stuart
Thanks! Home Depot has the ToughSystem light (w/o) bin for $199 with free Powerpack 8Ah. It’s on my deal post queue for this week.
J Bander
That light is NOT cord capable just battery operated.
Joe
I know they’re different AH, but do you have any thoughts on the Dewalt Powerpack vs Dewalt Powerstack?
Stuart
So far, the PowerStack 5Ah offers a fair balance between size, power, and runtime, with little compromise.
On the theoretical side, I believe Powerpack should perform a little better. In practice so far, I pushed the tools hard but not for very long times where differences might have become apparent.
Jon
Do the powerpack or powerstack batteries offer a performance advantage to the flexvolt batteries if used on 20v tools?
How does the 8 ah powerpack compare to the 5 ah powerstack in terms of size and footprint?
Thank you!
eddiesky
Not related but I have the 5A PowerStack and was augering holes in 70year old joists with ease. I made about 20 holes, some through double and tripled 2×10 joists, and the bit was smoking. I let it cool but when I was done, two of the three LEDs were lit…meaning it used one LED bar for 20 holes. And this was on an older 1/2″ Dewalt hammer/drill/driver (brushed because she sparked when I used a 1/2″ auger shorty bit…that the hex shank snapped and left the bit in the doubled joist. I resolved with moving to a longer Greenlee naileater …but too long to make perpendicular hole).
I have my eyes on the DCD1007B from Dewalt. Its new and would like it with the 8AH Power”pack”. But come on Dewalt…PowerStack PowerPack are way too close… fire that marketing person or put them to shows and hand out Dewalt coozies!
Saulac
Any forecast for Milwaukee M12? I absolutely love the recent M12 tools, which unfortunately has made batteries (run time) the weakest link.
Stuart
Have you tried the High Output 5Ah battery?
I think an M12 tabless battery is possibly but not very likely.
Saulac
I have not. The best I own are 6A. I believe they are XC. If am not mistaken, there are some reliability issues with those, I have one go dead near the end of warranty (How Milwaukee handles battery warranty is a whole topic), and Milwaukee does not make them any more. Maybe that why I have been wishing for better M12 batteries.
JR Ramos
I think the deal may be sold out but check Tool Nut for their $129 2-pack of the 5.0Ah batteries. I saw the email this morning and jumped on it – that’s like “fake amazon reseller” pricing (I’ve bought some from amazon and they were legit…for $69 and $75, JB Tools I think).
The 6Ah aren’t bad, per se, but the Samsung 30Q cells in the recent ones have had some issues with the high drain applications to where they may go out of balance, and since Milwaukee doesn’t have any method to cope with that, and once that lower voltage cell (usually just one) gets low enough that the charger assumes the pack is dead, then basically that battery is kaput unless you want to try jumping it (charger may still never except it but you can get it charged), or attempting disassembly and using a hobby charger to get that low cell back up to snuff…the charger will take it then and it may stay in balance (or may not) for future cycles. Previously they had some LG HG2 cells that are pretty comparable with the Samsung but still suffered the same issue. I’ve had four of them now die, only two of which they would cover under warranty.
The new 5.0Ah is using the more robust Samsung 25S cells – less capacity but able to handle the heat of high drain applications and not suffer the same problems as the 6.0Ah (well…no reports yet anyway). I have about seven of the 5.0Ah and use the snot out of them in the Fuel vacuum and the little 2″ planer as well as some wood and bondo sanding with the polisher/sander. All three of those will kill the battery charge lickety split and I’m pretty sure that’s why my 6.0Ah packs failed. These are going strong and look like they should last. I think it’s the best pack to buy…costs more but it’s worthy and some tools do benefit from the lesser voltage drop in use with those high drain tools.
I use my remaining 6.0Ah packs now just for the drill and impact driver and the tripod lights..and jigsaw. They do fine there and even when the drill gets abused with a 2-1/2″ hole saw or driving lags, and gets pretty hot, the 6.0Ah packs seem to stay happier. Going forward I won’t buy anything besides the 5.0Ah unless they (hopefully) introduce something better.
They have the singles priced at $85 now, which is so-so. I was going to watch the holiday deals but when that email came this morning I couldn’t pass it up. Don’t forget to keep an eye on Ace Hardware, too…they often have deals as good or sometimes better than the box stores and Acme and such.
https://www.toolnut.com/milwaukee-m12-redlithium-high-output-xc-5-0ah-battery-2-pack.html
I think tabless is extremely doubtful from a practical standpoint but they could sure do a third layer of round cells or do a pouch cell and give M12 users some extra power that the Fuel tools like and/or can perform better with. Even a slightly bigger M12 pack using 21700 cells would be welcome and that could totally be done at minimal R&D cost.
JR Ramos
By the way, when those 6Ah packs go south, the cells inside are almost always just fine. It’s just a dumb issue with their particular pack electronics. Dell and HP had very similar issues in the early 2000s where just one cell would drop out and the “smart” chips and software said the pack was bad. Maddening, and all because of poor electronics design.
If you have a use for the 18650 cells inside, you can disassemble the pack and use those…probably will even find that the low/bad cell is perfectly fine once you charge it up by itself and it most likely won’t exhibit any higher resistance or self drain, etc. Those that Milwaukee wouldn’t warranty became cells for flashlights and they’re great, all in good health (no reason they couldn’t still be performing well in a power tool…grrr).
Or just send them for recycling and hope they actually get meaningfully recycled.
indigo
It looks like tabless 40v XGT batteries are available from Acme tools.
BL4040F
fred
Acme seems to be doing a 15% off deal on these. It looks like you need to get a unique promo code sent to your email or phone to avail yourself of the deal
Stuart
Available for preorder – doesn’t look like it has launched here just yet, and all of the user reviews reference a different battery. News to me, but then again I’m not their favorite influencer.
Milwaukee released their Forge tabless batteries at the same price as their HO. Dewalt Powerpack batteries are close to the price as their previous 8Ah. Makita’s XGT costs appreciably more.
Forge 12Ah and Forge 8Ah battery: $249
XGT 8Ah battery: $259
Dewalt worklight plus Powerpack battery: $199
I bought into the XGT system for review consideration, to answer a couple of readers’ specific questions, and for the compact blower tool. It’s been losing competitiveness, there are still too many holes, but most significantly, it’s become too expensive.
The cordless dust extractor vac I bought a year ago is now over $1200 for the kit. My trim XGT router is compact and speedy, but the batteries are too large and heavy, making it an awkward experience.
Makita needs to do something to help make the XGT system more enticing, and fast.
fred
“Makita needs to do something to help make the XGT system more enticing,”
Amen to that.
I have a few XGT tools – including their lawnmower which I like. But if I were back buying tools for my businesses, I’d be hard pressed to justify moving to that platform. I did just purchase their GPR01Z 2.25HP plunge router to give as a Christmas gift and would have bought a BS001GZ belt sander if it were available on other than the Grey Market (aka eBay). The recipient for my XGT purchases seems to like what he has of the lineup – but his needs are more hobbyist than professional for what he has.
Farkleberry
Are you using the 2.5 or 4 ah on your trim router?
5 x 18650 are great for very delicate tasks, but the runtime is pretty short.
I’d assume the 5 x 21700 or pouch packs offered by Milwaukee, Dewalt, Flex, etc. might be a nice compromise.
The absence of 21700 (and it’s effects on motor spec) is the major deficiency I see with LXT.
The inescapable absence of 5 x anything packs in XGT is, apart from the offensive pricing, it’s major deficiency.
If you want more power and runtime, and the 10 x 18650 packs are too tippy, a larger sub base would add very little weight but lots of stability. Of course a corded trim router works non stop with no battery on top, and is no real compromise if you’re using dust collection.
FixThis
Whats the status of solid state battery tech? It sounds like that battery is safer and much more of an improvement over lithium cells.
Maybe it’s better to hold off on lithium if SS battery is right around the corner?
Stuart
Not a peep from any toolmakers – the momentum and claims such as being “safer” has mostly been in the context of future EV batteries. Nothing seems to have been commercialized or released to market yet, and I’m seeing a lot of doubt as to whether it can happen in the near future.
You can certainly wait to see what comes to market, but I don’t think it’s something brands are waiting for. There’s a lot of hype in the EV market, but that doesn’t mean much.
Mopar4wd
There is a brand that just started selling consumer batteries to the boat market “Solid State Marine”
https://solidstatemarine.com/
And I think heard there are some wearables using them. Not many reviews yet thou. Interestingly I did see a review on the Solid State Marine and they manentioned one of the issues was the cells are at different voltages then lithium cells.
Stuart
Very different application type.
Scott K
Do you think it’s fair to say that you couldn’t really go wrong with any Milwaukee or DeWalt at this point? Other than the oddly lacking Ryobi drill that they released about a year ago, it seems like the most basic models are more than capable for most applications, and improvements among the top tier are incremental at this point. I feel as though users now need to sort through which model fits their needs best rather than which model is “best” as even lower tier tools (from major brands) are highly capable. And if you own older tools or lesser models there’s a chance at seeing performance improvement with upgraded batteries.
Jared
It seems to me that most people who haven’t owned a cordless tool from recent history are blown away when they first try something modern – even non-brushless or lower-tier brushless models. However, there are still some stinkers in the lineup.
Dewalt’s DCD771 comes to mind. It seems like the only reason it still exists is that people continue to buy it and rate it highly – but those CANNOT be people familiar with modern cordless tools. The momentum of its past glory sustains it long past it’s expiration date.
It’s not like it’s even a good deal because it’s dated – the atomic drill is often right around the same price and is smaller, lighter, more powerful and more full-featured.
Stuart
You can blame the mass media too. It’s more profitable for inexperienced broad category “commerce experts” to recommend already-popular products than to actually do some research to gain experience and vet other models. It’s cyclic at this point.
Scott K
Seems like a lot of lists are generated without hands on experience and rely on past popularity for affiliate purposes.
Stuart
I think that’s a fair generalization to make.
Or, maybe one could say you could go wrong with any brand, but there’s less chance of that with Dewalt or Milwaukee.
Looking towards the “best” in any category is a popular approach, as it lets people skirt the research process.
I rarely bother with “best” roundups anymore, as interns and “commerce experts” at mass media sites pump out a ridiculous amount of content with near-constant automatic updates that game search results.
What’s happened is people will just buy something that’s popular.
More than 10,000 people bought Dewalt’s worst drill kit from Amazon this month – https://www.amazon.com/Dewalt-DCD771C2-Cordless-Lithium-Ion-Compact/dp/B00ET5VMTU/?tag=toolguyd-20 .
While also superseded by better models, the DCD777D1 kit is the same price – https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-Cordless-Battery-Included-DCD777D1/dp/B0C3TGRLLM/?tag=toolguyd-20 and is a better buy. Home Depot and Lowe’s both have better-performing models at the SAME PRICE right now.
Users should sort through their needs and wants and then look for suitable matches, but most don’t, at least not those shopping at the entry price point level. That’s okay. If you’re just looking to hang some shelves, how much research are you really going to do?
Scott K
My original comment meant to mean that an uninformed consumer stands to benefit from all of the innovation and the amount of value you can end up with given the current state of major brands’ cordless tools.
Stuart
Yes, and no.
Many pro brands have, let’s call them “legacy tools” in their lineups, which are not on-par with modern offerings.
Uninformed shoppers risk being disappointed. If you hear all the great things about a brand and then pick up one of their older brushed motor tools, your experiences will not match up with what you might have heard.
Ken
I’m so frustrated that Bosch has yet to release their tabless cells widely, including in the USA. From what I’ve read, they aren’t commonly available in the EU either. I think Bosch was first to announce the new “tabless” tech and included a great explanation of why the new tech is a notable adavancement that Stuart covered in a detailed article at the time. That was OVER A YEAR AGO and we still don’t have anything on the shelves to purchase. Why?! Meanwhile. Milwaukee and DeWalt are running promos on tabless batteries that have been available for purchase for a long time.
As an aside, I’m still wondering if the tabless technology will be retrofit to each brand’s 12V line. The limiting factor might be that some 12V form factors (Milwaukee and Bosch at least) seem to inherently limit the battery packs to 18650 cells due to size constraints (i.e., the battery pack goes into the tool’s handle). To my knowledge there are no “tabless” 18650 cells being developed (only 12700), so this might preclude tabless 12V packs for those brands. On the other hand, DeWalt’s 12V pack does not insert into the tool’s handle, and could possibly be designed to accept “tabless” batteries.
Stuart
12V platforms haven’t really moved from 18650 to 21700 cells yet. Tabless cells would provide benefits, but the general goal for these tools is to deliver a compact and lightweight experience. Bigger motors that can leverage the higher power output of tabless 21700 cells would work contrary to that.
The plain truth is that 12V cordless power tool systems are not very popular. 18V-class tools can be light and compact, and offer greater versatility.
Milwaukee’s M12 line is vast, with no other brand coming close, even with respect to the volume of new releases every year.
Milwaukee has the user base to be able to offer higher powered solutions. In my opinion, other brands do not. Even for those that might, and ignoring cost considerations there’s the size/weight compromise.
If I were a 12V cordless platform product manager or engineer right now, I don’t think I’d be working on tabless or pouch cell batteries.
Personally, I think that there’s greater potential for a 4V-class USB-recharged platform based on tabless cells.
Ken
Interesting thoughts, Stuart. I think it is unfortunate that 12V platforms are not very popular, but I think I understand why. Most tool users are not willing to invest in two separate battery platforms for seemingly similar tools (e.g., impact drivers). To me, the size and weight advantage is tremendous. I cringe when I see tradespeople driving small screws with large 18V drills. Small jobs are just much more pleasant with the size, weight, and ergonomics of 12V tools. Personally speaking, 75% or more of my work is possible with a 12V tool.
Based on my personal experience, the main benefit of tabless 12V batteries would not be power but longevity. I use a 12V tool precisely when I don’t need lots of power. But the low Ah rating of compact 12V batteries (1.5 to 3.0) means that they don’t last very long in certain higher-draw tools (e.g., jigsaw, OMT, reciprocating saw). When using these tools, the battery is depleted rather quickly and gets noticeably hot. Based on my understanding of tabless cells, the life of compact 12V batteries could be substantially improved if they went to tabless.
Jared
Do you think we’ll ever see a lightweight Flexvolt-compatible battery?
It seems like Flexvolt achieves something similar, but just by having a greater number of cells across which to spread the load (and the voltage switch too of course, but even in 20v mode presumably it can sustain higher load).
If that’s true, there’s probably less impetus to make a Flexvolt version… unless that would allow for a compact/lightweight Flexvolt pack.
I suppose Dewalt could also just make a ultra-performance full-capacity tabless pack to push the cordless boundaries forward, but at that point the cost would likely be so outlandish that it would amount to an engineering flex instead of a marketable battery.
Doug N
Tool and Stuff on YT has a great series of explanatory videos about tabless cells. He showed that Milwaukee and Dewalt are using identical tabless cells by Ampace, which is a subsidiary of Hong Kong manufacturer ATL. Makita XGT have cells by Sony/Murata.
For standard tabbed cell battery packs, these companies typically use large manufacturers like Samsung, Sanyo/Panasonic, and Molicell. Possibly these firms aren’t producing tabless cells yet for some reason. Not sure what Bosch, Metabo, et al. are using.
I’ve used the M18 12.0 Forge in the table saw, and I agree that these cells seem to be the biggest advance in tech since 21700 cells were introduced around 2018. More impressive than the pouch cells. I hope the claims of longer lifespan prove to be accurate as well.
Doug N
*Tools & Stuff (https://www.youtube.com/c/ToolsStuff)
ColeTrain
The Ridgid tabless is a much smaller format than the normal 4ah. While I like both more power and more runtime. With my work I benefit more from less weight and more run time. I noticed the rigid and DeWalt tablet batteries are significantly smaller than their old counterparts but is it $150 worth of more run time?
Robert
The various delays in introduction may be to safety testing. We had a couple of warehouse and transportation truck fires of mass Li-ion batteries recently around here and they took hours to put out. Statistically probably insignificant but high in perception.
Dan H.
I have a couple of the tabless Dewalt 8ah powerpacks and one of the tabless M18 forge 8ah batteries – I think the most noticeable benefit is their ability to stay cool under sustained load. With prior generation 8ah 21700 cell batteries from Milwaukee and Dewalt, they can get quite warm when pushed hard, such as in a leaf blower being run nonstop until the battery is drained. Then I’d need to let them cool before putting them back on the charger. With the new tabless batteries, they don’t even get warm, and I can pop them right off the tool onto the charger.
I have a lot of leaves to deal with every fall thanks to the giant maple and cottonwood trees surrounding my lot (way too many to just mulch and leave on the lawn), so I’ve been playing with different leaf blower and battery combinations. My dewalt 20v is too weak, but the new tabless powerpack cells last a long time. My 1st gen Milwaukee M18 is a little better, it runs nice on an HD12 or Forge 8.0. My new Bosch 18v is a BEAST for an 18v/20v class tool, but it runs through ProCore 8.0s pretty quickly and they come off the tool pretty warm, and need to cool for a while before they go back on the charger. I’m itching for one or two of the tabless Bosch 8ah packs, but it’s practically impossible to get them in the U.S. If Bosch doesn’t release them in the U.S. in the next year, I’ll probably bite the bullet and buy a DCBL777 flexvolt next fall.
Farkleberry
If I’m reading this right you have 3 cordless leaf blowers and might get a fourth?
Not trying to question or criticize, I think this illustrates the areas where cordless still lags gas.
Unfortunately the cordless backpack blowers with anything approaching traditional gas backpack fall leaf cleanup power are like 35 lbs with batteries. There are some lighter backpacks, and the EGO handheld with its big batteries impressed me.
I understand the obnoxious noise, gas maintenance and smell are a real turn off, but a 2 cycle that finishes in a tiny fraction of the time is worth it to me in fall.
I’m a big fan of mulching as much as you can. Get the right blades real sharp and mow before any rains with some goggles and a dust mask. Maybe convert some lawn to natural areas close to the trees too.
MM
I second the mulching suggestion, that’s how I deal with leaves on my property of several acres. The trick is to not let them build up too deep. If you let them get too deep the mower will push them around instead of cutting them. The correct blade choice is important too, they need to be sharp and have the right amount of lift. Too much lift and it will just blow the leaves out the edge of the deck instead of cutting them.
I prefer to mow either after a light rain, or early in the morning while there is dew. The moisture keeps the dust down. Dust problems are also exacerbated by blades with too much lift.
Farkleberry
Interesting suggestion about the rain /dew and great point about successive rounds, lest they get too deep and pile up in front. I like the blades with the continuous edge that rises up in the middle vs the gator blade.
The difference between a mower with a mulching kit = baffle and cover plate over discharge is immense. Usually one to two passes will mulch even pretty solid coverage leaves quite finely.
If you’re stuck with semi annual fescue, you do miss out on that perfect new green grass coming up, but I’m often shocked at how little organic matter turf accumulates. Mulching the leaves can make a huge difference, and is basically like adding a layer of compost to your lawn every fall.
MM
I’ve noticed the same thing regarding mulching blade performance. My local dealers seem to really push the “Gator” blades hard but I don’t like them. They have extremely high lift. That may be what you want if you’re letting the deck discharge clippings, but if you want to mulch they have bad blowout issues. The “elimintor” aka “hi-low” style blade with the hump in the cutting edge are much better in my experience.
And I agree 100% about making sure you have either a mower designed for mulching from the ground-up or it has a good baffle kit installed, it does make a difference.
Dan H.
I switched to cordless for things like leaf blower, edger and string trimmer for a few reasons…. convenience and noise mainly, but yes they still lag a bit behind gas for power. Still on gas for everything 4-stroke, but honestly I don’t miss the 2-stroke noise and hassle all that much. Tabless cells make me miss the 2-stroke stuff even less.
On the topic of noise, I have partial hearing loss in one ear, and constant, loud tinnitus for the past 10+ years. Ever since I bought my home I’ve always worn ear protection when using 2-stroke engines to help keep things from getting worse, but I got tired of telling my daughter to go inside every time I was blowing leaves. She likes to play in leaf piles. My Bosch is rated at only 64 dB. I can work the yard with her like 10 feet away without much worry about the future of her ears.
Stuff like this is what excites me about tabless cell technology… I like gas engines as much as the next guy, but I also like my ears, and I wish I would have taken better care of them in my youth.
Yes, I own too many leaf blowers, too many lawnmowers, and too many
drills. There are lots of bad to mediocre cordless leaf blowers out there, but I absolutely love the Bosch as long as I can keep it fed!
I do mulch a lot of the leaves. I used to mulch all of them but over time it has become too much to mulch everything. The trees grow more and drop more leaves every year, while my yard stays the same size. The yard seems to be happy when I mulch half into the yard and bag the other half.
JR Ramos
I’ve been thinking about getting the new Bosch but haven’t been sure what to make of all the early reviews (so many are just worthless and the majority are also seeded/free tool reviews). There’s a lot I like about it (not having held one yet) but I wonder how it compares to the newer Milwaukee single 18V.
Also, have you tried a 12Ah pack on the blower? I figured it would chew up the 8Ah pretty fast, wondering if the 12 is enough benefit to offset the weight and change in balance.
The nice thing about Bosch is that the tools are generally very good and some are just excellent, but the batteries are reasonably priced and I find them also to be superior to everything I have thus far from Milwaukee 18V (not yet bought a Forge 8Ah though).
I have a contact now with Bosch who has been pretty easy going with information. A couple months ago I asked him if he knew anything about tabless coming to the US and he had zero information in either direction. I hope they do bring them here. It’d be great on the miter and table saws and several other tools.
Stuart
I’ve been testing the Bosch blower, and it’s quite nice. It’s not a power leader, but seems to perform every bit as well as other brands’ comparably sized cordless blowers.
There was a promo not too long back where there was a bonus starter kit.
Dan H.
I haven’t used the newer single battery M18, but I can confidently say the Bosch with 8ah batteries is noticeably better than the older single battery M18, no matter what battery is used on the M18.
I don’t have a Bosch 12ah. I may get one or two at some point but I was hoping to source a couple tabless 8ah batteries instead. I’d have almost no use for the 12 other than the blower, and I’d share your concerns that it might throw off the balance and negate the weight savings too much. No way to know unless I duct tape a 4.0 to the back of the 8.0.
I think I found a way to source Bosch 8ah tabless packs from Australia for about double the cost of the regular 8ah packs. Not worth it!
If you talk with your Bosch contact, tell him a random dude on a forum says please bring the tabless packs to the U.S. so he can buy two, lol.
Andy
Sounds like a step up out of the 18/20V tool class is the right move for your needs. Something in the 40-80V range with a commensurately sizeable battery pack would offer substantially more CFM / air speed / force at a sustained rate.
I have the Ego 765 CFM (LB7654) leaf blower and it has enough power and runtime to clear my 2/3rd acre yard of leaves each fall. I have a bunch of large maples in my yard, and several more around the edges, that drop tons of leaves.
The leaf blower came kitted with a 5ah battery that has decent run time in high (650 CFM) but extended use of the “turbo” (765 CFM) mode runs it down pretty quickly. I prefer to use the 10ah battery from my snowblower, which although heavier, handles the full power draw without issue, and allows for plenty of runtime even.
No matter how hard I’ve pushed any of my Ego OPE, I’ve never had an Ego battery overheat, or even get hot enough that I couldn’t immediately put it on a charger and start charging. Maybe I’m not pushing stuff as hard as other homeowners, but I’m impressed after ~3 years of use.
Bill
I guess I would wonder if Dewalt, being part of Stanley Black and Decker, would include this technology making its way to Craftsman.
Stuart
Market factors are all that’s in the way of that.
I think a lot of DIY brands are watching Ryobi and Home Depot to see if there’s sufficient consumer interest and demand.
Farkleberry
It seems Makita just emerged, or will emerge in 2 weeks from Milwaukee and Dewalt’s dust. The BL4040F is available to order now from several online retailers. I would not even venture a guess as to when Metabo HPT and Bosch will will import theirs, could be a few months or a couple years.
That’s interesting info about the different manufacturers for Makita vs Milwaukee/Dewalt. Based on past 2.5 star reviews on Mikwaukee’s website for some of their batteries, as well as personal and anecdotal comments here and elsewhere about Makita, it’s likely Makita will have a longevity advantage. The greater current carrying capacity might get right at the problem vs any design or manufacturing flaws.
That’s a very fair point that Milwaukee and Dewalt will offer lower prices than Makita, and the Milwaukee promos look especially attractive.
If you miss the sales and need a regular street price, I’m not sure that Makita’s $260 intro vs $200-220 isn’t the better value.
I wonder how much the price difference is between manufacturers and especially tabbed vs tabless cells in general?
Is this simply an early adopter tooling up surcharge, or will the tooling change be so negligible that tabless will take over everything soon enough?
I wonder how much the lower 18v motor inefficiency has pushed the rapid adoption, rollout and promotional sales of tabless by these manufacturers?
In several tests, it seems the highest performance 18v tools seem to heat their batteries up significantly more than the 36-40v competitors (often shutting down mid test), and this seems to have some correlation to battery life as well.
The great recent coverage of new Milwaukee plastic motor stator core tech and tabless introductions industry wide are a fascinating look behind the scenes of the power tool power wars.
It’s curious that Dewalt hasn’t introduced any 60v tabless (although perhaps they’ve abandoned the platform).
Equally interesting is that Ryobi hasn’t introduced 40v tabless, even though things like blowers, chainsaws and OPE in general tend to be FAR more taxing on batteries than most other applications.
I also think its hilarious that Ryobi now has tabless cells in the 90’s era form factor stick top 18v battery. Why they don’t just go to a slide in battery shape and offer a legacy adaptor is baffling. Even a total novice consumer can see that one of these things does not look like the others.
I’m probably as excited that this already seems to be pushing down prices on tabbed cells, which often aren’t really taxed in many tools and applications.
Stuart
As mentioned in another comment, I don’t think so.
XGT 8Ah battery: $259
Dewalt worklight plus Powerpack battery: $199
Forge 12Ah and Forge 8Ah battery: $249
Forge 8Ah batteries x2 plus awesome Super Charger: $349
Milwaukee offers super speedy charging times that void the biggest benefit of 36V/40V Max batteries, plus the Cool Cycle tech is really neat, and Dewalt has compact and lightweight batteries for tools that benefit from better ergos over sheer power delivery potential.
Despite the holes in the lineup, XGT had potential performance benefits that were mainly hindered by high pricing. Now, the power/performance playing field has been leveled, and even higher pricing is creating a bigger obstacle.
What I really want to see are XGT + tabless batteries + MakTrak tool box combo kits.
Maybe they should take a page from Festool’s book; Festool often bundles a bunch lot of premium-priced tools and gear together, and call it a limited time promotion.
Goodie
I like your idea of Makita XGT bundling like Festool. Makita’s pricing is high, and going the Festool route allows customers to talk themselves into a “value proposition” by comparing the individual prices of the separate items. MakTrak needs agressive pricing as part of the bundles early to build some enthusiasm.
Stuart
It seems that’s essentially what they did here – https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/makita-18v-cordless-combo-deal-black-friday-2024/%3C/a%3E .
If a brand cannot offer a 5pc cordless power tool combo kit at $299, increasing the price to $449 but adding in 2 more tools is better than nothing.
TwitchyPete
Regarding Flexvolt; visit the Dewalt site and you will see 8 or so new OPE tools anounced; also dual Flexvolt mower on way, DCMWSP700. Flexvolt is not going anywhere and I think you will see at least 3 new tabless battery models within the next 12-18 months. There is a reason for the flexvolt battery adapter for Powershift equipment.
Farkleberry
Those look like some legit OPE tools. Stihl, Husky, etc., are outrageous on their battery prices, etc. and it’s great to have competition, especially from full line power tool makes. First XGT (which luckily use the multi tools from their gas days), then Milwaukee, now Dewalt.
I think the 60V makes lots of sense here, Makita has decided to go to a dual battery 80v on the brushcutter, for example, but the 40v 10 x 21700 polesaw is probably nicer to use than the minimum 15 cell 60v DeWalt. Maybe there are 15 x 18650 Flex volt packs?
It’s interesting how OPE has largely gone to 60-80v, even though the range of power and size/weight is enormous. From hedge trimmers to backpack blowers to riding lawn mowers. I would not assume as a consumer that using the same battery system on that range of tools wouldn’t have serious tradeoffs.
I had not heard of this Powershift. I guess this competes directly with MX in the concrete industry, etc. at 60V. I like these better logistically than XGT x 2 @ 80 Volts, though ergos on 100+ lb tools are probably less relevant. The 60V Flex Volt is either potentially better or worse than 40v (and 18V for that matter) depending on tool size.
I read the Milwaukee Forge MX batteries are tabless, so Milwaukee is perhaps designing their latest MX to take advantage of the higher current.
It would be interesting to know how much raw power and especially power to weight,etc. matter on these type of tools, as most of them are not handheld. I.e. just putting on a larger battery would handle the current and give longer runtime vs using fewer, but more expensive cells. Obviously, more consumer choice is great, especially for the handheld stuff.
Farkleberry
“Milwaukee offers super speedy charging times that void the biggest benefit of 36V/40V Max batteries”
Higher voltage motors are always more efficient. Are Milwaukee’s stator designs enough to equalize this disadvantage? Are there durability tradeoffs with these designs or will 40v+, etc. adopt similar designs and again push their voltage advantage? If they’re all using tabless batteries, and all have access to similar motor tech (my quick Wikipedia search would suggest so), wouldn’t the higher voltage tools perennially have a potential raw performance advantage?
“Despite the holes in the lineup, XGT had potential performance benefits that were mainly hindered by high pricing. Now, the power/performance playing field has been leveled, and even higher pricing is creating a bigger obstacle.”
This sounds about right, currently. These top level tools all seem to jockey around in each category, but the battery heating/longevity seemed to be a real weak point for some high performing entries.
“Dewalt has compact and lightweight batteries for tools that benefit from better ergos over sheer power delivery potential.”
Obviously Milwaukee has this ability too, unlike XGT.
Assuming customers would be ok with having 10 cell minimum battery ergonomic limitations seems odd for a company widely regarded as at the top in this regard. Assuming customers would be fine with XGT medium tools and LXT small tools seems like a reasonable, but not ideal compromise. The stagnation of LXT combined with pricing makes this a questionable assumption.
This is why I really like Metabo XGT, although they seem to emphasize light weight and value over absolute power dominance, which is fine by me. The 36v tools seem to run fine on tabbed batteries which are often around $50-60 for 4/8 ah on secondary market, reflecting the typical promotional value (this year they’ve been basically free from Acme). The Makita BL4040 have recently come back down to $100 retail/new after having been up near $150 secondary market for some time.
I’m really not sold on certainly the current Maktrak.
I really like the top stacking/locking system, which is the hardest thing to change.
I think the DXL like depth will work great for some, but is most suited to moving from generous garage/warehouse to 8-8.5′ trailer or pickup bed, not typical 20×20 garage to van/7′ wide trailer.
There is very little in the way of work station customization.
The accidental or serendipitous sizing of Packout to allow compact size organizers to be carried beneath backpacks, totes, tool bags, etc. is huge IMO. Even Klein, with Mod box’s superior space efficiency (at the expense of the protection and handling of corner rails) kind of goofed up their two sizes of compact organizers, one too large, the other too small. Perhaps they’ll offer deeper bags, backpacks in the future, to match the standard organizers, but these bag/backpack widths seem pretty standard – just about packout organizer width/depth.
The Maktrak compact organizers don’t seem to be set up for this, and I guess require stacking 2 deep. In not sure how access to these will work in practice, since there only seems to an unlocking latch on one side.
I agree with your earlier posts that selling the boxes adds too much to tool cost and eats away at flexibility… just bring back some of the promos from XGT’s introduction… or do even better.
My take is LXT is dying/being starved.
XGT’s flaw is no compact batteries for small tools, otherwise they’re still the top brand as far as combination of performance, ergos, and quality/durability, but not by much on performance, especially. The lack of specialized trade tools is a conscious and acceptable trade off. The line is big enough for most users, and having 2 systems really is OK.
The real problem with Makita and especially XGT is simply price/value. You really aren’t missing out by adopting any number of competitive offerings.
Maybe they’re selling this stuff overseas as fast as they make it, I know the pricing is much better there. Maybe they have some business model where incremental advantages now require exponential price increases and exponential differences between the excellent competition.
I have no idea about Makita USA’s costs, but it seems like they should trim some internal largesse or maybe longtime loyal customers should accept that Makita corporate doesn’t like Americans.
Stuart
In theory, yes, higher voltage power distribution can be more efficient. In practice, it’s not very impactful in the context of handheld power tools.
36V tools can be made a little more compact because the motors can be a little smaller since the windings’ wire gauge doesn’t have to be as thick. Being able to use compact battery on 18V-class tools is much more significant.
Farkleberry
Higher voltage motors can either be made lighter at the same power, or more powerful at the same weight, right?
Milwaukee obviously feels it’s customers demand these efficiency advantages, that’s why they make 12 volt M12, 18V M18 and 54/60V MX.
That’s also why earbuds are 3.7v (minimum Li Ion) and EVs are 4-800 volts
I would consider there are 3 size classes of consumer power tools:
Small 9-12V tools
Medium 18/20V-54/60v
Large 18/20V-72/80V tools.
The power to weight ratio of the latest top tools in each class, means these differences are often pretty small and hard to complain about for people who remember early cordless and even those grimey old corded tools.
Somehow there seemed to be more issues with the most powerful lower voltage tools overheating with tabbed batteries. This could have been related to saving weight on wiring, cooling, etc., but seems to be improving with the tabless packs, that are luckily coming down in price, though still expensive.
Maximum flexibility in one system will obviously trade off some advantages at the edges vs more specialized tools.
I like the convenience of one battery system, but would be totally fine with a (constantly updated, 21700 stocked) LXT and a separate XGT. My only real issue is the non competitive price.
I think the ideal voltage for a given tool is currently pretty easy to define. It’s the highest voltage for a typical pack with cells all wired in series.
Compact drills, impact drivers, multi tools, trim routers, 6 1/2″ and smaller circ saws, one handed recip saws, etc. are all tools that come to mind where 5 cell batteries can work really well when mobility and control are more important than power and runtime. These tools can thus be designed for best power to weight ratio in 18v. If you want more runtime, use a parallel wired 10 x 18650.
The lightest 7 1/4″ circ saws really can’t use compact packs, they must use 10 cell packs, but 10 x 18650 works great. Thus 36/40V offers the best power to weight ratio.
The 60v Dewalt Flex Volt is significantly more powerful than any others, I think, but can only use a 15 cell pack, and thus it’s pretty heavy.
The excellent circ saws, impact wrenches, etc. in 18v show the voltage disadvantage can be designed around.
Anything portable moving a fair amount of air (blowers, vacs,), powerful OPE saws, and semi stationary table/miter saws, I just don’t see why you wouldn’t go to to 36-72 volts. Anything on wheels, especially carrying people (mowers, etc.) I don’t know why you wouldn’t go beyond this. Ebikes are 54-72V, only have 1 driven wheel and don’t cut anything.
I just don’t think the tradeoffs of different voltages are as clear cut as you’re describing long term, but I agree tabless cells and compact packs make 18v only lines quite versatile and still attractive for small-medium sized hand held power tools.
Stuart
No, because the batteries can’t deliver it.
An 18V 8Ah battery has 10x 21700 cells. A 36V 4Ah battery has 10x 21700 cells. If the battery packs are identical aside from the electrical configuration, e.g. 10S vs 5S2P, the max wattage output will be similar.
You can use slightly lower gauge wire in the 36V motor than in the 18V motor.
But max power is going to be based on the battery. Sure, you can have a beefier battery capable of greater power delivery, but the battery’s not going to be able to drive it to such potential.
Dewalt FlexVolt are 54V/60V Max tools that can only be driven by 15-cell batteries. Some tools specifically recommend/require the 21700 cell batteries.
A tool designed around 15x 21700 cell batteries can be engineered to be much more powerful than a 36V or 18V tool that also need to be able to be powered by 10x 18650 cell batteries.
M12 vs M18 isn’t about efficiency. It’s about power.
M18 batteries with 5, 10, or 15 Li-ion battery cells can deliver more power than M12 battery with 3 or 6 Li-ion cells, and except in few specific cases, they can store more energy as well.
MX Fuel isn’t just about efficiency. But when stepping up from an M18 battery to an MX Fuel battery with a LOT more Li-ion cells, voltage is definitely a big consideration.
You’re going into too many tangents, bringing up DXL tool boxes, Packout, e-bike batteries, etc.
We’re talking about the differences between 10-cell battery packs in the scope of handheld cordless power tools, not EVs, e-bikes, or anything else.
There’s no “ideal voltage.” Sure, you can connect all the cells in series, such as with 10-cell 36V/40V Max systems or 15-cell 54V/60V Max, but that creates ergonomics compromises that users frequently complain about.
You said you prefer the convenience of a single battery system. That’s what you get with 18V/20V Max – the ability to have compact 5-cell, balanced 10-cell, or highest power deliver 15-cell battery packs to power everything from handheld to stationary tools.
Tabless batteries have raised the bar of what 18V/20V Max cordless systems can do, and in my opinion they’ve rendered 36V, 40V Max, and 60V Max tools less relevant for handheld tool applications.
For cordless OPE, 60V Max is a good idea, but 2x 18V are very much capable. In that case, it’s 15x 21700 cells vs 20 x 21700. But the 18V system can also include more compact tools, something that is less feasible with larger battery form factors.
Farkleberry
I understand if both batteries are the same, the total available power is the same.
If you’re using a higher voltage, this means less current, which means you can use thinner wire.
We’re on the same page so far.
Does the thinner wire allow you to have more windings in the motor? Does this create a better magnetic field? Does this more efficiently convert the same battery’s energy into torque, etc.?
Why is it suddenly better to have a 60V MX motor vs an M18 motor, if they both are powered by say 15 (or 30) cells? Why is the 60v motor more efficient than an 18v, but a 40v is not?
I’m really not very knowledgeable about motor design, but would like to learn more about the advantages of the higher voltage of MX vs M18.
Your explanation of M12 vs M18 makes sense to me, there is a form factor consideration based on the number of cells. I’m assuming there was an advantage to Kobalt and Flex going to 24V vs 12V in parallel for 12 cells.
I was responding to your point about Makita needing to add MakTrak boxes to be competive with Forge batteries, I will try to stay more focused.
I understand there are definite pros and cons to the marketing momentum, convenience, battery balancing and efficiency of different voltages in power tools.
I certainly don’t wish to own 12, 18, 24, 36, 48, 56, 72 Volt, etc. systems because there is some advantage to each for certain size tools.
Whether one size fits all depends on your application and acceptance of the tradeoffs.
It doesn’t make sense to me that people who are willing to accept two platforms, won’t have some potentially significant advantages (as well as disadvantages) over a one size fits all system.
Otherwise, why would so few manufacturers offer only one voltage?
Stuart
Kobalt and Flex went to 24V Max because 6 or 12 cells can deliver more power than 5 or 10 cells (18V/20V Max). There are marketing benefits as well, because bigger numbers sound better.
Motor design gets complicated. My understanding is that more windings mean stronger magnetic force, and greater torque, but you don’t get much speed benefits. Additionally, longer wire means higher resistance, which means greater losses and heat. To compensate for that, you can increase the wire size, which then increase the motor size. Everything really needs to be balanced. There are no gains in motor performance without compromise.
A 60V Max tool can be designed around a 15-cell battery.
18V tools can also be designed around 15-cell batteries, but users expect to still be able to use the tool with 10-cell and maybe even 5-cell batteries.
One brand designed an 18V-class tool that was a bit too performance driven, and as a result runtime was less than optimal. For the updated model, they had to dial the performance down slightly.
With FlexVolt, the tools can be designed for a smaller range of batteries. With 18V and even most 36V batteries, there’s still a wide range if the performance floor is at 10x 18650 cells, or even below.
It’s a very loose analogy, but let’s say you’re cooking 2 meals at the same time for 4 people. That’s going to be different compared to say 2 means for 8 people who might have different allergies or dietary restrictions.
When a brand has 10+ years of compatible batteries, users will expect all of that to work with modern tools. Even when it’s less than ideal, they need to work. You can design tools to be optimized for higher performance batteries, but they still need to be usable with other batteries.
The batteries shown above should fit ALL of the brands’ respective tools in the same platforms. There have been a couple of exceptions over the years, usually fixed for free.
There are differences between 18V and 36V tools, but they’ve been minimized over time. There’s a bigger difference between 18V, 24V, or 36V, and 60V Max, and the differences grow with higher cell count batteries and larger for factors.
With MX Fuel, a lot of engineering was done to beef up the tool-battery connection. The line was designed for light equipment, rather than handheld tools. It made sense for them to jump to a different power level than to try to leverage the M18 interface.
Farkleberry
My point about Flex/Kobalt is they could’ve designed the 6 and 12 cell packs to run at 12V, right?
Those are good points about the longer wire with increased windings, etc.
I’d say there are no gains in overall tool and tool company business performance without compromises, as well as just motors.
I’d earlier said one platform is great, but 2 is no big deal. Luckily companies like DeWalt and Metabo HPT have engineered clever multivolt systems that don’t require binary voltage choice.
Like I said, I’m no motor engineer, and view tool marketing and “independent tester” numbers with some suspicion.
I do find it interesting that both seem to suggest the same tools from Metabo HPT (impact drivers, impact wrenches, drills, etc.) are often 10%+ more powerful with 36v vs 18v.
I understand your point about designing each motor around people potentially using 5×18650 batteries in the 18v models (the exact reason I buy them over the 36V in smaller tools).
I still find it hard to believe that there is little to no inherent efficiency and power gain just from the increased voltage here, though.
If my math is right 18 to 36v is double, while 36 to 54 is not. That’s surprising that only certain jumps are inconsequential.
An upgraded MX interface or the limited handheld applications are both irrelevant to my point. They saw a performance benefit from increasing the voltage, otherwise it would be M18X with a new connection/packaging and nothing smaller than 15 cells.
I don’t understand your point about companies forever designing their tools around the last 10 years of batteries. This whole post is about how now Milwaukee has “left everyone in the dust” by outgrowing all but the Forge batteries with their latest tools. The last few years of hot/short life batteries and Milwaukee’s latest guidance on which batteries in what tools suggest you need to buy new Forge tabless for the latest high draw tools.
I have no problem with this, innovation requires replacement.
I have no problem with Milwaukee favoring some continuity in their interface, even if there are increasing caveats and inevitable tradeoffs.
I just want to know the truth about different brands’ design decisions and their consequences. This way I, and other interested consumers, can prioritize the many factors.
Thanks for the lively discussion, I appreciate all the info.
Stuart
Yes, 24V Max batteries can be internally configured to deliver 10.8V/12V Max voltage. But there’d be little benefit in doing so.
Science theory: 1000 watts at 200V and 5A is going to be more efficient than 100V at 10A.
Engineering: In my experience it’s a marginal point in the context of modern handheld cordless power tools.
It’s kind of like how a pro-grade 12V cordless drill can deliver more power than entry-priced 24V cordless drills.
The way the industry has been moving, and the way tech had advanced, there are fewer limitations in 18V-class tool systems. The same barriers that resulted in systems such as FlexVolt 60V Max no longer exist.
Dewalt has transitioned from FlexVolt to 20V Max with FlexVolt Advantage (e.g. https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/dewalt-20v-cordless-air-compressor-flexvolt-advantage/%3C/a%3E ), and even now with the latest XR tools performance is silently stepped. Dewalt had a 120V Max 2xFlexVolt miter saw, and then 60V Max https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/dewalt-flexvolt-cordless-miter-saw-dcs781/%3C/a%3E .
Maybe an updated miter saw powered by 20V Max batteries is next.
Higher voltage systems do hold advantages. What I’m saying is that modern engineering has closed the gap to where voltage is practically unimportant – in the context of handheld cordless power tools.
Farkleberry
Nov 19, 2024
I’m seriously doubting voltage for all handheld tools is unimportant, as in the latest handheld OPE, DeWalt has gone 60V.
I have long stated that small handheld tools are best with a compact battery option.
For medium size handheld tools, tabless have been a great help to 18v. My question is, will the higher voltage manufacturers be able to leverage an advantage going forward
now that they will be designing around tabless as well?
I understand your answer is not really, and perhaps the science involved is beyond both our current understandings, but I appreciate what you’ve shared already. This is the kind of thing I find interesting, and look forward to hearing more in the future, if possible. Some of these concepts are likely hard to grasp and communicate in lay terms.
Along those lines, “the latest XR tools performance is silently stepped”…
Can you please explain/elaborate?
Tyvanry
I don’t know that I’d say Flex is lagging behind they have pouch cells of everything which based on the pouch cells of DeWalt and Milwaukee hanging around I’d say they are on par with tabless. I agree with the rest though.
Stuart
Tabless cells have advantages over pouch, such as with respect to heat buildup and dissipation.
A W
Thanks for the write up. I was looking at the promotional deals of the day last week and was wondering what advantages the Forge batteries would give us I don’t have a super charger. This helps answer those questions.
Stuart
Let me know if you have any more questions! Battery tech has gotten extremely complex over the past few years.
A W
I have the standard charger (48-59-1812) and Rapid Charge (-1808). My understanding is that a Forge battery would run cooler, longer and give certain Fuel tools better performance, but I would need a super charger to take advantage of the faster recharge times. Does that all sound right?
Stuart
You will still see some advantage with other chargers, as the cells in Forge batteries should charge and discharge with less heating.
But yes, to get the fastest charging times, you do need that dual port charger. The other chargers aren’t capable of the same charging rate, and the dual port Super Charger has Cool Cycle tech that pushes air through the Forge 8Ah and 12Ah battery packs, helping to cool down the cells quicker.
It’s really neat – you can take a hot pack and the Super Charger will get it ready for charging speedily, and the battery will also be cooler when ready to go off the charger.
It’s not an inexpensive upgrade, although the starter set with bonus battery helps with that.
ross
Do you see increased performance using these batteries in older tools or do they need to be reengineered to take advantage of the new batteries?
Stuart
I haven’t tested them with too many older tools yet, but I did ask about this. There will be tools and applications where you should see differences.
Let’s say you struggle to lift a sofa. You work out for 6 months and try it again. Same load, easier job. It’s kind of like that.
ColeTrain
Stuart, having an electronics background I have been intrigued by these technologies for a while now especially due to the physical size and the extended run time alone but it’s hard to pull the trigger on a purchase this time of year when there’s so many battery and tool bundles. I can obviously see the use of them especially in specific tools but had doubts about the advertised power claims. You seem fairly impressed with it but would you say the numbers on paper so to speak are fairly accurate? Example, I keep seeing the Rigid display at home Depot that says three times more power. Not sure you’ve tested the Rigid one but would you say three times more power is fair? What I find interesting is if this technology would work its way into 12 volt platforms. A few of my go-to tools are 12 volt and that would be extremely useful with those. Or, since the new dewalt power stack batteries are almost the size of 12 volts, will all the large batteries become so small that we see the demise of 12 volt systems.. again? Thoughts.
Stuart
Some of the claims seem like puffery to me, with “up to” performance claims seemingly based on cell specs rather than battery pack power delivery.
But enough brands have put out specific application data, and they’re fairly believable.
I haven’t tested the Ridgid and am not likely to.
The compact Powerstack battery is great, but not without compromises. The gap between 12V and 18V size and weight has shrunk, and some 12V-class tools from some brands are larger than 18V-class tools from others. Excluding M12, 12V-class tools command very little market share.