I was able to [finally] get some home electrical work checked off my to-do list. It wasn’t a lot, but a good start – I think. But it brought up some questions, and a bit of anxiety.
First – uch, back-stabbed outlets. That meant having to cut and strip already somewhat-short wires.
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The first outlet was a little tricky. I don’t have a lot of experience with residential wiring, but it was the wires’ short working lengths that made things more difficult. Once that first outlet was done, I turned my attention to a troublesome outlet that was giving a “hot and neutral reversed” fault code.
Yup, the hot and neutral wires were indeed reversed, and the outlet was also connected via back-stab. The ground wire was a little corroded in some part maybe, or just dirty.
I bought an Amprobe tester last year, but still like using the Klein receptacle tester I reviewed a while back.
Then I tackled the outlet that used to be switch-controlled. Here’s where some questions and anxiety arose from.
The Situation: 1 Receptacle, Too Many Wires
There are 3 sets of conductors entering the outlet box. It’s in the middle of a run, and here is what was connected to the previous receptacle:
- 3 neutral wires
- 3 hot wires, with 2 paired together with a wire nut (so 1 to outlet, and 1 to outlet from wire nut)
- ground loop (I think I remember there being a wire nut)
The outlet had 3 backstab connections and 2 were screwed down. There were 5 wires going to one receptacle. The bridges between top and bottom were NOT broken.
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Some Context, if it helps:
This is in the living room. After we bought the house but before we moved in, we had ceiling lights put in. Previously, the light switch controlled this outlet. These are the 2 connections that have given me some anxiety after I cleaned up and turned the power back on.
In the family room, there’s still a switched outlet, in addition to new ceiling lights and another in-wall light switch. Both outlets of the same receptacle are controlled by the existing light switch.
Now, in the Living Room, the outlet is always-on, and the switch controls the ceiling lights.
The Question
My question is this: Are there too many conductors in the plastic box? I couldn’t see markings, and might need to check again, but I took some measurements (below). Is it counted as 6 wires (3 hot, 3 neutral), +1 for ground, +1 for the wire nut(s), +2 for the receptacles, for 10 total? The Romex-style wires have white outer sheathing, and so I’m assuming 14 gauge. Plus they’re on a 15A breaker.
Update: I measured the plastic box to have internal dimensions of ~3.25″ tall x 2″ wide x 2.5″ deep. So does that mean a cubic volume of at most 16.25 cubic inches? If so, that does seem to be way too small of a box according to the box sizing charts I’ve seen.
For all I am aware, these are original standard single electrical boxes from 40-50 years ago.
All I did was replace the outlet, with the wiring nearly exactly as it was before.
The Light Switch
As for the nearby light switch, this was a new switch installed by a licensed electrician to control the new ceiling lights he installed at the same time. It was a dimmer switch. I replaced it today with a “smart” dimmer switch, more on that another time.
The light switch has:
- 2 neutral wires connected via wire nut
- 2 hot wires, 2 connected via wire nut and 3rd to switch (I thought there were 3, but another look shows 2 sheathed wire feeds)
- Ground (Maybe with a wire nut)
Oh, There are More Concerns
To start, the wiring from the outlet to the switch does not seem to carry the ground over; I can see it terminated at the end of the sheath right where it comes into the light switch box. I can only assume that the ground from the switch to the lights is brought to another ground connection somewhere, maybe dropped down to one of the wall outlets. That seems feasible.
Also, one of the hot wires, and it looks like it could be the new wiring to the lights, has a tiny crack in the insulation at a bend near where it connects to the switch via wire nut, and I think I can see the copper within. Must I wrap with electrical tape, leave it alone, or cut it and try to work with the super shortened wire?
It’s not something I caused, but now that I noticed it, I figure I should probably act upon it, or at least mention it here. Many of you know a lot more about AC wiring than I do, and I trust you’ll forgive me if anything I’ve asked about has an obvious answer.
Easy Light Switch Installation, but Too Easy?
After removing the old dimmer switch, I connected the new light switch to the 2 hot and ground wires using the included wire nuts. I wasn’t very confident about the connection, so I checked and double checked it, and it seemed solid. The light switch has thin stranded wires, so I tried my best to wrap them around the wall wiring before tightening the included wire nuts. Twisting with pliers would have obliterated the small stranded wires.
Maybe some Wago Lever Nuts, or more preferably the new slimmer ones, or push-in nuts would have been better. I use those all the time in my DC wiring applications and love their ease of use. What are your thoughts on using these connectors for home/residential wiring in place of wire nuts?
The wires are all somewhat short and stiff, so getting everything back into the electrical boxes required a little pushing. I had to cram things in, not forcibly, because the wires were short to start with.
Is this too many conductors in the light switch box?
Thinking About That Converted Outlet Again
I started out wondering about the light switch box, but am much more concerned about the outlet box.
I’ve looked at building codes, but the answer doesn’t seem obvious to me when I consider a few other things. Surely the electrician who converted the outlet over to always-on (without replacing the outlet??) and added the ceiling lights and switch would have done something differently if the boxes were too small, right?
(Hmm, maybe he didn’t replace the outlet because it would have forced him to bring the box sizing up to code?)
It wasn’t very obvious what the “before” looked like, since I just see the “after.”
Update: The family room switched outlet and switch has minimal wiring, so that’s not much help. The light switch has a ground wire, but it’s not connected and only extends into the box maybe an inch, or two at most. So if anything else ever goes in there, how do I connect to just 1-2″ of ground wire to make an extension?! I would swear I saw a “19” at the back if that switch box, but it might not refer to volume..
Oh, and the copper wire is white underneath the light switch screws. It almost looks painted. If it was painted, would that mean white = both are neutral, meaning that the outlet is switched via neutral instead of hot?? I didn’t pull the outlet out yet, but with the switch off the hot wire triggers my non-contact voltage tester…
I figured that some of you electricians or savvier DIYers might have some ideas or advice for me. I’m primarily worried about the box sizing, but also…
Go Back and Go Long?
Should I go back in, add extensions using wire nuts or other connectors? That would make future changes or replacements easier, but also allow for easier folding of the wires. I couldn’t fold the wires in too easily, given their shortness. It took pushing and screwing the fixtures in to get everything settled the last distance.
With the outlet, I used a receptacle that allows for side wiring (traditional), or back-wiring (not back-stab, but where there’s a plate under the screw that clamps down on the wires). With 2 short hot wires and 3 neutrals, I connected a pair of the hot and neutral each to back-wire clamps, and used the side screw for the last neutral. I guess I could have used a new wire nut to group the neutrals together.
I have a feeling that I will start extending out the outlets I work on in the future. If so, the questions would be 1) how long should the extensions be?, and 2) wire nuts or push-in connectors?
I’m Out of My Comfort Zone
As you probably know, or can certainly tell, I’m the over-thinking type. I worry about everything from proper hook shape to wondering why I can’t fold wires back into electrical boxes with the same ease as they fold out.
In a fabrication or lab equipment where I wire things up from scratch, everything is controlled, and everything is by design. With these outlets and switches, some of the previous work simply confuses me. Having to cut out the back-stab connections is a frustration. But on that last formerly switch-controlled outlet? The 2 hooks I took out were soooo bad. I really hope that wasn’t by the electrician that worked on the ceiling lights and other parts of the house.
I didn’t add any conductors, or anything that acts as new “conductors” to the outlet box or light switch box. But then again, some of the outlets I replaced had back-stab connectors, and one had hot and neutral connections reversed. So I hope I can be forgiven for not completely trusting that things were perfectly to code before I took a peek.
If it’s not up to code, then that would likely mean at least 2 electricians ignored it.
Any advice would be most appreciated!
Headaches to Come
And once I’m ready to move to the next outlet or switch replacements, here’s what I have to look forward to:
- A loose dining room receptacle (I guess it either needs to be tightened, or the box replaced)
- A bedroom outlet that a tester says has an open ground wire
- Another bedroom outlet with fault
- An outside outlet – I believe connected in line with an in-basement-ceiling GFCI – that measures ~60V when switched OFF
- Landscape lighting that seem to be dependent on the Z-wave-controlled switch that controls the outside outlet that measures 60V when off
- At least 2 worn outlets
I’m sure hoping that there are no more surprises.
Summing it Up
So, in short:
1) Do you think the outlet box is over-capacity? If so, what to do about it?
2) Why would the builders wire it like this?!
3) Should I go back in the boxes and add extensions via wire nuts (or push-in connectors)? I’m not so much worried about future changes as I am about stress on the wires or insulation. As mentioned, one of the hot wires in the light switch box shows evidence of bending stress.
4) If I change anything about the switched outlet in the other room, how do I connect to the itty bitty ground? It seems like it would be easier to convert the outlet to always-on, cap the wires, and install a wireless remote wall mount that could control the smart light switch I might add in place of the current dimmer. This would essentially create 3-way switching, with a hard-wired switch at one entryway, and a virtual one at the other.
All I wanted to do was replace some outlets and a light switch, and while I did that, I also created a rabbit hole.
It brings up other questions too. Let’s say I have an outlet behind the TV, in the middle of a run, and so there are 4 conductors, plus 1 for ground, plus 2 for the device, and 1 for wire nuts. So that’s 8, and requiring 16 cubic inches if I’m understanding what I read correctly. Let’s say I want to add an outlet up the wall for the TV to be wall-mounted. Adding 2 more conductors to add a higher-up outlet might take the standard box out of code, unless the lower box is box covered up and the outlets moved for no net change in conductors.
alex
Not an electrician but I use wago connectors instead of wire nuts all the time. I think they are much safer when you are connecting multiple wire. I really don’t like push in connector. They loosen over time and they are hard to disengage.
One thing you can do if you are stuck with stranded wire and want to use a wire nut is to crimp a ferrule on it. This is mandatory in Europe by the way.
Don’t overthink it. Just make sure you don’t have too many wires in your box and you are using the correct wire gauge. And if you are not sure what a wire is connected to, just turn the breaker off, disconnect the wire and put a wago or a nut at the end of it and turn the circuit back on and see what is not working. From there, you should be able to label all your wires and see the big picture.
alex
Forgot to say you can find electrical box fill calculator online to help you see if you have too much stuff in there or not.
And another way to feel good and not worry too much about your work is to use a thermal camera. If something gets too hot, your camera will catch pretty quickly.
Stuart
That’s the thing – by conductor count, it seems to be over filled.
alex
Well is it a gang box? If it’s the case, you could expand it and it would solve the problem.
alex
I forgot that in the US, you are using mostly plastic boxes (not the case in Canada) so the answer is probably not. Well if you have to change the box, it’s not really hard to replace a box by a bigger one.
You just remove all the wire from the box, unscrew or unnail the box from the stud, make a bigger hole, put in the bigger box and reconnect everything.
Stuart
This is also near HVAC vent, and so it’s not even clear whether I can put in a deeper or wider box.
Maybe the solution is to put a box in the basement ceiling to feed the lights, but I don’t know if that’s an option.
alex
Yes you can use a junction box if you want as long as it is accessible (not hidden in the wall or behind something) but it will be more work to fish all the cables through the wall and the floor. So make sure you really have to change the box first.
And by the way, I *think* it’s ok to repair a damaged wire inside an electrical box by putting heat shrink tubing over it as long as it is only the insulation that is damaged. Maybe an electrician can confirm. You can also cut the wire before the problem and use a wago to connect it to a new undamaged wire.
Hang Fire
“The outlet had 3 backstab connections and 2 were screwed down. There were 5 wires going to one receptacle. The bridges between top and bottom were NOT broken.
Some Context, if it helps:
This is in the living room. After we bought the house but before we moved in, we had ceiling lights put in. Previously, the light switch controlled this outlet. These are the 2 connections that have given me some anxiety after I cleaned up and turned the power back on.”
So… I take it this outlet was converted from an outlet + pass/thru + switched outlet, to just an outlet with a bunch of pass-thru’s. Nothing wrong with lots of connections inside the box, as long as they fit inside the box. I guess my only question here is, does the switch work in its new function?
Stuart
I believe that’s how it was, and yes the switch works in its updated function of controlling the ceiling lights.
I’m concerned more about whether the box is over capacity. It shouldn’t be an issue with everyday use, but what about if a vacuum is connected to that branch, or similar.
It was wired with this many conductors I believe since the house was wired, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s right.
Hang Fire
Hmm, over capacity. Yes, this could be an issue if the ganged feeds come off of different/parallel circuit breakers. (It would also mean sloppy work by the original electrician, but no surprise there).
The thing to do is test it by shorting the outlet and see if one or more breakers latch.
Scotty
Stuart,
When calculating box fill:
Each wire counts as one and all grounds combined count as one as long as they are all the same gauge. You do not count wirenuts or pigtails . 14 awg has a multiplier of 2 and the outlet counts as 2 no matter what gauge the wire is
Stuart
Okay, so thats still 6 + 1 ground + 2 outlet = 9. By measurements, the box looks to be a little over 16 cubic inches, max.
I saw a few sources that mentioned wire nuts and other clamps counting as 1 conductor combined.
9 would still require 18 cubic inches.
The 2 wires to the light shouldn’t ever carry much current despite being 14 awg, but does that change the measurements?
Scotty
6 conductors + 1 ground x 2= 14 +2 for the receptacle = 16. Metal clamps are counted as 1 only in metal old work boxes and only if the clamp is internal. Using a metal romex conector and lock ring do not count towards box fill.
Stuart
Are you certain? Every example and reference I checked says that a device adds 2 conductors before the AWG multiplier is applied.
Mike
You are correct, Stuart. Each yoke of devices counts as two conductors of the largest size conductor connected.
JMG
I have never been a fan of the backstab connections on switches and plugs, and generally do not use them if at all possible. But, I am also not a licensed electrician trying to make a living at it. Also, I have yet to find a need to cut a wire free of one due to the weak nature of the clips used to hold the wires in the device (unless someone has inserted stranded wire into one).
Gripping the wire at the device with a pair of pliers, and then rotating the item back and forth, while applying minimal pull pressure, can extricate the wire somewhat easily. As I do not plan on ever using the backstab on it again, I am not overly concerned about damaging the crimping mechanism. I have yet to find a solid wire that could not be removed in this manner.
Stuart
Thanks! I’ll keep that in mind for future outlet replacements.
Josh
1. Why are you cutting the backstab connections instead of popping them out using a small flat head screw driver into the release slot in the back? You may still have to cut them occasionally but you’d be far better off.
2. The Allied Sliderbox is perhaps the ultimate old work box. Single gang is 23 cubic inches and it screws right into the stud with its internal screws. Box fill is unforgiving and you really should fix that.
3. Cracks in insulation = liquid electrical tape time. Way easier than standard tape.
4. Crimp your grounds. It’ll make that extension real easy.
5. Last but not least, if you’re wiring an outlet and the wires are really short just pigtail the hots and neutrals together and only run the pigtail out to the outlet. It will make the whole process amazingly easier.
Stuart
Thank you!
I didn’t see release slots, nothing like the ones on the back of the modern dimmer switch I swapped for a new switch. Maybe I didn’t look hard enough or try hard enough to pull the wires.
2) This one, the SB-1? http://www.alliedmoulded.com/catalog/residential-products/electrical-boxes/wall-boxes-for-switch-or-receptacle-devices/sb-1/
I’ll try to find it locally. I’m a little intimidated at the prospect of changing boxes, but this looks doable.
3) Thank you, I’ll get on that! The first option I looked at, by Gardner Bender, says it has a 24 hour cure time, but am I right in assuming it can be applied and the light switch closed back up quickly?
4) I wasn’t aware that was an option – thank you!
5) Thanks! I was pretty sure that’s what the consensus would be. Is it worth going back to the outlets I already connected? If not, that seems like a good plan for future work.
Are you of the wire nut or push-connector opinion?
Stuart
The Madison Smart Box looks to be a lot easier to find –
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Madison-Electric-Products-Original-1-Gang-Gray-PVC-Interior-New-Work-Old-Work-Deep-Adjustable-Wall-Electrical-Box/1000156805
Seems similar, and has 22.5 cubic inch capacity. But 4″ depth might be too deep.
The SliderBox you mentioned is 4.6″ deep and looks a little more adjustable.
Farid
Thank you Josh. It saved me the time looking the Slider box. I used these and they do work.
One issue I found with these, is when you screw the box in, they tend to want pull in with the screws and become recessed if you’re not careful when starting the screwed. I temporarily screwed in a a couple of metal tabs (cut from scrap – or you can use a small angle bracket) to the wall-plate screw holes (the support bar from a fan outlet box will also work ). The tabs held the box flush with the drywall and kept it from falling in while I screwed them into the studs.
Pigtail to outlet is the way to go. The outlet should not be a substitute for a wire nut or connector when you a have a bunch wires that connected together, You should have 1 hot and 1 neutral to out let (unless it’s a split outlet)
Stuart: the majority of the time I ran into problems with broken wall plates is because the box is recessed or outlet is too crooked because of too many wires in the box. If the box is recessed behind drywall, you can use box extensions . For slight recess, they makes little spaces to help hold the wall plates in the right position.
Stuart
Ah. So use an extender as is used with tile and other wall finishes that add thickness to bring the surface flush with the drywall.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/ReceptXtenders-1-Gang-1-4-in-Electrical-Receptacle-Box-Extension-Ring-00002/100156491
But what about the ones that are angled inwards a little, whether by poor installation or something else?
I like the idea about how to keep the Slider Box flush – thanks!
Any good source for where to get them? I found Platt. Shipping is a bit much, but price is still reasonable.
There’s also Cooper Supply, but you need a credit account to even see prices. There’s a location maybe a half hour from me.
I also like the unbreakable wall plates because they cover a larger area. Some outlets have visible gaps, and the unbreakable kind is large enough to cover it nicely. But they pull in too much at the center when fastening to outlets.
alex
You can use these on individual screws to correct a box that is not plumb
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-Spacers-25-Pack-172451L/202937111
Farid
Thanks, Alex. Those are the spacers for small recess. They sometimes help with angles boxes as well. There are also foam gaskets that help reduce air leaks and give you about 1 millimeter or 2 of cushion.
Stuart, the steel extenders work pretty good for various depth (http://www.homedepot.com/p/1-Gang-Steel-Switch-Box-Extension-Case-of-25-SBEX-25R/202597649?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-100156491-_-202597649-_-N)
I forget what the minimum code requirements is for recess, but if the box is recessed too far, then you no longer have enough fire stop protection in case something goes wrong inside the box .
Do you mean a good source of the boxes ? I am not sure in your area . I got mine a the local electrician shop (Loeb Electric). Mcmaster-Carr may have some and their shipping is usually reasonable.
Rick C
I used those spacers on my new kitchen tile backsplash + new outlets/switches + new faceplates. The guy at HD said a lot of people he sells to use rigid tubing cut to length. Sounded like a great idea but also sounded like a lot more time to finish. I used the spacers and got it done in a timely enough manner that SWMBO was happy. Using them makes it not so easy to see to stab the screw into the box threads though.
Hang Fire
“1. Why are you cutting the backstab connections instead of popping them out using a small flat head screw driver into the release slot in the back? You may still have to cut them occasionally but you’d be far better off. ”
I recently helped a friend with a 90’s era house, we were replacing all the sockets for cosmetic reasons to help sell the house. Anyway, almost all the releases cracked and broke when we tried them. 20 year old plastic. Rather than release a few and crack the rest and then cut the rest, our working rhythm was much faster to just cut them all up front. Fortunately there was enough wire to work with in each box.
Backstabs are great for fast production work and lousy for maintenance. A quintessential engineering trade-off.
Jim Felt
If everything is correctly and tightly connected and it all fits you’re good to go…
And all modern Wi-Fi enabled, digital dimmers and USB charging outlets are tight fits in older single gang boxes. That why nearly everyone now uses 4×4 metal boxes for single or two gang covers. “More room”.
Dave P
I am going to share an opinion that I know may be unpopular with all the DIY types.
First, some of things you mentioned doing Stuart are code violations. Based on your description of painted wires and the age I also wonder whether you have some aluminum wiring. You also haven’t talked about taking out any permits and having your fixes inspected. By your own admission you don’t know what you are doing.
Second, my wife works for a property and casualty insurer. I can tell you that IF you were to have a electrical fire in your house or someone was injured due to your electrical wiring AND you made the repairs AND didn’t have them inspected, then you are going to have a nasty fight with your insurance company when it is time to pay a claim. I haven’t even talked about the risks to your family.
So, here is my potentially unpopular advice. Hire a competent electrician to come to your house and conduct a detailed wiring inspection. Make it clear up front that you want advice and directions on how to fix the problems. Offer to just pay by the hour, so they don’t have any estimate risk on their end. I doubt this will cost more than $250. They will certainly give you a bid to do the repairs after the inspection.
Then if you decide to do the work yourself, take out a permit, do the work the way the pro told you to do it, and then get it inspected. You will also know how much you are “saving” relative to hiring a pro.
My training is in electrical work, but I apply the same process to my DIY plumbing. At my last plumbing inspection, the inspector said “it looks like you hired a pro why did you call me? I don’t normally bother to inspect for professional repairs, only new construction.” Nonetheless, I got his green card in my file that shows I am 100% good. If my insurance company ever has an issue with a claim, then I will tell them to take it up with the inspector.
Stuart
Your opinion is very much appreciated!
Electricians in the area don’t seen interested in a few outlets or switches, but I can try again. The last time I asked, the person doing the sub advised me to do the outlets.
If it’s too time consuming for local electricians to want to bother, what I might do is map everything out to save on labor. I would need to do that anyways, and it might save a lot of effort – and money.
Getting the fixes inspected is a good idea, I’ll look into that.
I highly doubt it’s aluminum wiring. The non-metallic wire is definitely copper beyond where it’s secured under the switch’s screws.
Update: I just called the city, and they can issue permits to homeowners. I’ll likely stop in today to fill out the paperwork.
It was my intent to get the work inspected. My original intent was to ask the electrician when I ask them to bring new lines to an upstairs workspace, but this works even better.
I was under the assumption that I couldn’t get a permit and inspection without being a licensed electrician, but am glad to find that this isn’t true.
In my defense, I know exactly what I’m doing – what needs to be done, and how to do it. I’m just the nervous “it must be perfect!!” type. It’s not that I’m worried about serious risks, although if you get me thinking about it I’m sure I will be, I’m worried about things not being exactly right. That’s why things like the small cut in insulation caught and held my attention.
firefly
I agree with everything except for the assumption that Stuart, or any DIY who care enough, don’t know what they are doing.
There are a lot of competent DIY individual out there just as there are many incompetent tradesman. The reverse is also true. It’s true that a competent tradesman might have the know-how to complete a job more proficiently but that’s about the extend of it. Whenever I ended up going to DIY route it’s usually not to save money but it’s because hiring a competent tradesman might not be feasible. I also tend to over engineering a bit and error on the side of safety. Personally though I prefer to hire for to cut myself out of the liability loops for many of the reason that you have stated above.
Ben
This part about the insurance consequences is not true, at least in most states. A home fire shown to be caused by un-permitted electrical work conducted by the homeowner (the insured) will still result in a paid claim, unless they can show that there was willful negligence.
Nathan
I too agree with some of these statements and sentiments, I say similar things about automotive work. But per Ben’s comment – remember it’s some states. So when you have time see what your state requirements are for insurance and inspections.
If you have the inkling to DIY it – and you’re not familiar with the system or physics – ask someone, look it up there are videos on many things. But look up a pro you can feel confident about as a back up plan.
FishStick
Also do yourself a favor and buy the better grade switches and outlets. $3 for switches and $2 for outlets – ballpark figures. They have a much more robust feel and don’t get as loose when plugging things in vs the cheapies. I hate seeing new or recent construction homes and they are wired with the cheapest garbage contractors can find. How much extra is that going to add to a build? Maybe $200 in materials and $0 in labor.
Stuart
I was using slightly better Leviton ones from HD.
I know the electrician prefers Hubbell, and I plan on requested a step up from standard.
The last apartment I rented, there were a few worn outlets that were very loose. The builders must have used the cheapest outlets possible. The community wasn’t built that long ago for the outlets to have been in such worn condition.
JoeM
I’ve had this exact same panic feeling. I am, in no way, certified to handle Electricity. I took a College Course, yes, and I have a genuinely high IQ, but I have not a single piece of paper saying “You’re allowed to touch this Electrical Wiring Contraption, Like… EVER…”
Yet… I find wiring very easy… I’m even Colourblind, if you can believe it… So wiring sometimes is done by “Grey, Other Grey, Not Grey, and Black” kind of logic.
Here’s MY conundrum… I want to build myself a custom POWER BAR or two, to add outlets into my bench and desk areas. I know, I know… “Buying one would be cheaper”… but I like to tinker and play. I have the wiring figured out, and I’ve custom-clipped a universal power cord from a couple old computers… What I NEED… is to know what box to use… and if it’s kosher to melt two differing styles of thermoplastic face plates together in order to put Decora and other Industrial style sockets together in the same box… Decora has a 4 USB outlet I want to use next to an industrial Red and Red-with-Light Switch isolated from the rest of the circuit powering the USB ports and other sockets, giving me a kill switch for the Red sockets for emergency use.
I’m feeling very lost on this project, and now my usual electrical supplier isn’t answering their phones when I call to place an order for this stuff. Plus, Home Depot seems to say they “Can’t Get Any of That”, and have no idea what I’m doing or talking about. So, I’m more than a little overwhelmed on this one. Everyone seems to think I’m crazy to want to add an isolated, grounded metal electrical socket to my desk.
FD
There are surface mount boxes and recessed type boxes, you can use to make-up your own combination of two gang devices. Some exist from / for corporate desk / furniture / cubicle / … makers and sold as accessory.
Stuart
I’m fairly comfortable with electricity. It’s house-related stuff that makes me anxious when I cannot quickly answer what/why/how style questions.
As for power bars, I’ve seen some good tutorials and examples.
Here’s one: http://www.azdiyguy.com/blog//2013/11/building-ultimate-workshop-power-strip.html
I’ve seen another good one, but can’t track it down at the moment.
Michael
you have seceded in giving me a headache
Adam
I’m not an electrician, but I did have the opportunity to wire the whole house. Honestly, I thought it was easy, but my mind is geared towards that kind of task. The big advantage there, is you are starting from scratch, which I think allows one to better understand what is really going on. Only redo I had was putting another GCFI in the kitchen. The outlet was on a separate breaker, and was arguably to close to water. Inspector probably would have let it go, but probably felt like he had to find something.
I pig-tailed my hots, neutrals, & grounds (well crimped & trimmed all but 1), which obviously gives you longer wire to work with the receptacle, but it also made tucking the rest of the wire into the receptacle easier.
Biggest regret was not using wago nuts. the local yocals (some electricians) claimed they weren’t that great, but they were guys stuck to their old ways. I probably would have been fine, had the person that help on parts of the house, not thought he needed to trim the electrical wires down to minimum length. Wago’s would have been preferred in those instances.
alex
Wago lever nuts are awesome. Really! Especially when you work with stranded wire. What I like the most about them is that there is a hole in which you can insert a multimeter probe. Sometimes a wire nut is so packed with wires that there is no way you can put a probe in there without removing the nut.
Nathan L
Ugh back-stab is the worst. I never use those.
Pig tails are your friends.
Other than that i can relate. It’s so hard to make sense out of fill rules and find solutions to overages that aren’t huge projects in of themselves.
Nathan L
PS At least you’re not trying to bend and fit conduit between all of them. THAT is a trial by fire.
Bill
There have been a few comments here regarding wire connectors and various wire terminations/connections. For years solid copper wire connected with wire nuts was the norm and in many, if not most cases, still is. Because I live in an older, 1970s era home, it was originally wired with metal conduit, EMT, and I love it. While it can be a challenge to add an outlet or make any changes, I have maintained this system through out my house.
About 20 years or so ago it seemed stranded wire was becoming the norm, or at least it was in my area, when buying in bulk by the 500′ roll. The problem I encountered was in the marriage of stranded wire with existing solid wire. At that time all my local electrical houses and various electricians were telling me that, “it’s easy, just twist the stranded wires together with the solid wires using a wire nut as you have always done”. Well despite my repeated efforts I was never satisfied with the results. I could never get a neat clean twist even when combining just one stranded with one solid wire using a wire nut. The mixture of the two wire types was always a problem. The stranded wire would always get pushed down and displaced by the wire nut rather than making a good well mated and integrated connection with the solid wire, even if I tried to pre-twist them together with pliers. My best solution at the time was to lightly tin (solder) the last 1/2″ of the stranded wire thus making it act more like a solid wire and allowing a better wire nut connection. Yes, I know that solder is a “no no” in this application but I reasoned that ultimately it did give me a much better and safer connection.
Later on I discovered the Ideal In-Sure push-in type wire connectors. While I Iike these connectors and use them often they provide their own challenge when it comes to stranded wire. These connectors are clearly rated for both solid (12-20awg) and stranded (12-18awg) wire. Yet when pushing in stranded wire, usually 12 or 14awg, the force required often causes the wire to bend before I can overcome the spring tension/resistance required to fully seat the wire.
So in short, does anyone have a good solution for dealing with stranded wire connections?
Stuart
Wago lever nuts?
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/wago-lever-nuts/%3C/a%3E%3Cbr /> https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/wago-wiring-lever-connectors-221-series/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
Bill
Yes, thanks Stuart.
I just ordered a set of the 221s and I’ll give them a try.
Maybe when I install my first gas fired tankless water heater at my father-in-law’s house over the next two weeks.
Stuart
You’re welcome. It’s up to you to determine whether they’re code-approved and what-not. I use them in DC connections all the time with great results, and the last I checked, they’re rated to higher loads than typical 12 and 14 gauge wiring.
Alex
You can also crimp a ferrule to the stranded wire. It’ll be much easier after that to wrap a solid wire around it.
Kevin
It is very common for light fixtures to have a stranded wire ‘pig tails’ that must be connected to a solid wire(s). First I twist the solid wires together if there is more than one. Several pot lights can be controlled by one switch so all but the last one will have 2 hot and 2 neutral wires going to other lights or the switch. Then I twist the stranded wire around the solid wires and add the wire nut. Always twisting clockwise and putting the stranded wire in a spiral ‘groove’ created by twisting the solid wires. It is important that the wire nut is the correct size or the stranded wire will be pushed down or will not make a solid connection. With just 1 solid wire, the twisting of the nut will do most of the twisting of the wires. If the stripped part of the stranded wire and solid wire are the same length before twisting then the solid wire will seem to be longer after twisting making it more likely to push the strand wire down. Just trim the end of the solid wire or strip more insulation from the stranded wire. Always do a ‘pull test’ on the stranded wire to check if there is a solid connection. Like most things, it takes some practice.
Kevin
Maybe that wire that looks painted was painted. It is my understanding that primer is sometimes sprayed on in new construction. The black wire could have some over spray of primer.
With a switch controlling a receptacle it is possible that one cable, with white, black and ground wires, connects to a receptacle. The receptacle could have 3 cables connected to it. One feeding in, one feeding out to other devices and one to the switch. In this case the white wire in the cable to the switch is used as a hot and should be marked as a hot. Black marker, electrical tape or even paint, I suppose could be used. If this was the original situation then it is possible that a second cable was added from the switch to the ceiling light installed by your electrician. The white wire from the switch to the receptacle would have been rewired to be used as a neutral.
Charles
Speaking of wire connections – after living in Germany for a zillion years, I got accustomed to using the “double screw” connections that come on a long block and you cut off what you need. I thought they are certainly solid connections and work with stranded or solid wire and are called terminal. Are those things legal here?
Charles
terminal blocks – I hate this keyboard…
Brett
To the ostentatious overthinker: was the electric in the living room acting up to cause your investigation or is that what you do to learn. Your three prong tester had me thinking. it might not have been wrong per say bc depending on where that outlet is compared to the switch that neutral may have been a hot just not labled correctly then the rest of your problems stem from that change right there.
Stuart
I was changing out older and worn receptacles to tamper-proof ones.
I don’t like surprises. There were a couple of other “what the heck did they do here??!” boxes, and so I asked the electrician to change them out after installing can lights in one of the rooms. Pretty much all of the previously switched outlets were improperly changed over.
Changing out a light switch? I’m good. Receptacle? No problem. Swapping mistakenly reversed hot and neutral wires? Sure.
With the fault I corrected, the tester identified the fault, and then I saw the wires swapped to the wrong connections on the receptacle. The others on the same line didn’t have faults and visually appeared “proper,” at least as far as wire color to proper connection lugs.