What advice would you give a 17-18 year old who was faced with what could be considered a life-changing decision?
Should they go to college, or learn a trade from a vocational school or professional apprenticeship?
Which did you choose? Why? Have you enjoyed or regretted the educational and career path that you followed?
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The path one takes after high school doesn’t have to be irreversible or permanent. There are plenty of folks who learn and practice a trade before pursuing another career path, and others who choose college and then a trade.
But the decision really is a big deal.
There are also of course many that choose neither path, and follow a different calling or path. You don’t have to go to college or learn a trade to have a successful career or earn a living. But for the sake of this discussion, let’s just focus on the choice between college and a trade.
The Way Things Are
For whatever reason, a college education is perceived very differently than a learned trade.
I like to think I have an even view of things.
I still remember how, after years of pushing me to work towards getting into college, my grandfather would genuinely nudge me to consider a trade.
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Even when I was a couple of years into my college education, my grandfather suggested I look into being an electrician or plumber.
It wasn’t “get good grades in school or you’ll be a plumber.” It was more like “you can earn a good wage as a plumber and eventually open up your own business.”
Even before that, I remember my mother giving me a choice – that I work towards college, or I learn a trade. I could be ambitious in either direction, as long as I worked towards a goal and livelihood.
To be honest, I didn’t give trade school serious consideration at all. That’s not because I didn’t respect the trades, but because I had a good idea of what I wanted to do, or rather I knew I needed a college education to follow my ideal career path.
Now, years later, my exposure to contractors, tradesmen, and professionals of all kind have showed me a lot more of the “other” side of things.
But in high school, what exposure did I have to the trades? All I knew was from what I saw on TV and in movies. The way society portray things, white collar jobs are “better” than blue collar jobs. This has become a popular but unfair perception.
People like Mike Rowe (here’s his movement page) and Kayleen McCabe have been spreading awareness about how awesome the trades can be. I like to think that they’re making progress on combating social views of the trades and tradesmen (and tradeswomen), but they sure have their work cut out for them.
Blast from the Past: A 2009 post about the “An Inquiry into the Value of Work” book
My Path
While it might sound corny, my college experiences helped to shape who I am today.
I won’t lie – being a science major wasn’t exactly fun a lot of the time. If I could go back, there’s not much I would change about the path I went down, except maybe to convince myself to study harder.
I won’t tell you much more, lest my own experiences derail the post. Maybe I’ll talk more about my college experiences in a follow-up post (if you’re interested). In the meantime, here’s something to think about:
Either in my late undergrad or early grad years, I realized that there were 3 types of students:
- Those who were just there for a piece of paper
- Those who were eager to be taught
- Those who were eager to learn
Sometimes there were people in the crack between 1) and 2), those who expected to be taught.
Some of my friends and peers didn’t really belong in college. Either that, or they were stuck in the wrong major. I can’t tell you what they should have done instead, but I can tell you that a college degree was just a piece of paper for them.
Maybe some of them would have been happier or more successful in a trade, if they knew it was an option.
If you do it right, college is mostly about the journey, and not the diploma you get when you’re done. It’s about developing the skills you need to pursue a career. Going to college or learning a trade aren’t so different.
The Question to You
Which did you choose? Why? Have you enjoyed or regretted the educational and career path that you followed?
What advice would you give a 17-18 year old who was faced with making such a decision?
Please don’t feel slighted that I only focused on college and trades. I am well aware that there are other career paths that are just as honorable and respected. Even if you didn’t go to college or learn a trade, please share your choices and experiences all the same!
Pete
hahaha this is gonna cause some debate for sure. I will keep my thoughts to myself on this one.
Stuart
Please share!
If I didn’t think we could have a polite and adult discussion, I wouldn’t have touched the topic.
Porphyre
I think it has to do with work ethic.
Good work ethic? Go into trades.
Bad work ethic? Go to college.
I admit – my work ethic isn’t great. I’m actually kinda lazy. So I went to college, graduated, got a degree in my field, and I now hold down a desk. I do my 40/wk (which is really a lot closer to 30, not counting Internet time like ToolGuyd!). Stress is pretty low. I get paid ok but not great (I’m not a lawyer or anything). Have everything I need but have to save up for bigger things I want.
I know guys in the trades that make more money than I do. But man, they WORK for it. 40-50-60 hr weeks. I make more hourly, but they work more hours and get overtime. I know a union drywaller that started at 18, put in 30 years, retired to a union pension. Got a NICE house, pretty nice cars. And he’s 53 and goes golfing 3 times a week. Of course, he worked 50hr weeks for 30 years.
I don’t begrudge anybody making $50k-$60k a year on $20/hr. It’s hard work!
Final thought is that guys who don’t go to college get a “jump start” on life because they’re not spending 4-5-6 years waiting to start their career.
Benjamen
>>I think it has to do with work ethic.
Good work ethic? Go into trades.
Bad work ethic? Go to college.
That’s just insulting and demonstrably not true.
Porphyre
Well, no.
Most jobs one acquires with a college degree are salaried positions. Unless you have a good bonus structure, how much you work has zero impact on your pay (unless you get fired for laziness, of course). Ergo, you can find a job (like mine) where the work isn’t taxing and the pay is fine.
Most jobs one acquires from a trade school are hourly positions. With the current state of America, most of those positions are also overworked. There are hours available to work because they can’t hire enough skilled workers. The harder you work, the more you make. And you can make a really good living using your hands. But you have to WORK.
A person with a poor work ethic is not going to survive in the trades. That is demonstrably true.
James R
I have always done it by contract. Price is always up for negotiation. As someone who gets paid per contract the incentive to work harder is to get my job done faster without sacrificing quality. The more jobs I do the more I earn. Quality ensures that I get more jobs.
Benjamen
Unless you are talking about willing to physically work hard instead of work ethic, you are being incredibly insulting…even then, it’s still insulting.
Saying that people that go to college don’t have work ethic is cherry picking a small minority, just like it would be cherry picking for me to say that I know of a few guys in the trades that are incredibly lazy, so therefore everybody in the trades are incredibly lazy.
And what does most mean when you are talking about salaries 51%, 75%, 90%. A good portion of jobs requiring college degrees hell even advanced degrees are either contract or hourly. Half no, but more that %10, possibly approaching 25%. Is that percentage higher than non-degree jobs, yes probably.
And are you saying that salaried people aren’t working their asses off and getting the crap end of the stick working 50, 60 hours of over time because the company doesn’t have to pay them anything more?
Porphyre
Interesting set of prejudices you bring with you, Benjamin. Perhaps you should go back and read what I *did* write instead of what you *think* I wrote.
And yes, as James R pointed out, everything is negotiable. If you’re a salaried employee (without a good bonus structure, as I mentioned previously) and you’re regularly working a lot of overtime, yes you are “getting the crap end of the stick.” Negotiate something better or do something else.
Work to live, don’t live to work.
Stuart
Respectfully, I also disagree with the “bad work ethic go to college” statement.
Those with poor ethic won’t survive many different types of majors.
Ignoring bonuses, which not all companies give out, there are plenty of reasons why poor work ethic won’t work out.
People get fired for failing to meet deadlines, expectations, or poor performance. If you have bad work ethic, and it shows in your work, you would be replaced.
Who do you think will earn a promotion, which often comes with bigger responsibilities but also a higher salary and/or benefits? The worker who does the bare minimum, if that much, or the one that fulfills the expectations and goals of their role and then some?
Bad work ethic has no place anywhere.
Bad work ethic in college isn’t without consequences either. Bad work ethic can mean landing on academic probation and even being kicked out of school. Or it could mean going past the typical 4 years for an undergraduate degree.
Mahalo
I agree with Stuart and Benjamen. Some of the hardest working individuals that I know are college graduates. That’s not to say that it’s impossible to graduate from college with bad work ethic. Just like anything in life, be it university or trade school, there are those that have a good work ethic and those that don’t. Both may manage to get by, but in the end, the rewards tend to go to those who sacrifice for them the most.
Acalz
I went to college and got my Criminal Justice Degree from a State University, I became a Police Officer, well that’s sort of a trade? it’s at least a blue collar job . I’m 43 now been a Officer for 13 years, pays good, lots of OT. The good thing about it is that I retire in 12 years and I’ll be 55 with a full pension, 75% of my best of 5 years. College didn’t really prepare me for this job, never really used any of the things I learned in college, I learned from on the job training, the academy, and from other officers.
Now wish I would have gotten a different degree, maybe finance, or gotten a trade like carpentry. I’ve always been good with my hands and people always want be to rehab some part of their home, but I never have time. Would be a good business to get into when I retire I guess.
The good thing is I’ll have my home payed off soon, and start to get all the toys that I want for myself.
magic
I got a 4 year business degree, but stayed working for my employer, anticipating moving up. It won’t necessarily help me in the organization, the possession of a degree, but I learned a lot that I could apply. I don’t regret it.
I’d recommend younger guys to go to trade schools, if they’re handy. There’s a lot of money in some blue collar work. Machinists do well, and so do some welders. I know a young guy, maybe 21, who went through Butte College’s welding program. Brand new truck and he’s looking to pay cash for a $20,000 machine, and a new truck to put it on. With everyone going for academic rather than trade skills, it’s a good way to make a lot of money.
Another guy I know is roughly the same age and pulls a strong 6 figure salary working for the utility company as a welder. TIG pipe.
In any case I’d advise one to follow what they love. Satisfaction with one’s line of work is worth more, in my eyes, than a bigger salary. You’ll be spending more time at work than with the cool stuff you buy.
Carmelo
If i was unsure at 17-18 I would go to college for an associates degree. The degree will get you through the door for an interview.
I don’t know any trade in construction where you can start making decent money in your late teens. The youngest apprentices I’ve met were in their 20’s. They’re starting off at a fraction of what a journeyman makes.
Hang Fire
The question is phrased a bit wrong. Trade schools in the US have moved from municipal High Schools to Colleges- Community Colleges, anyway. In Europe one says “University” unless speaking about a specific major, or, a high school or trade school.
HVAC, Plumbing and Electrical have the best earning potential, but only after apprenticeships are served. Construction is a tough haul and then the only real reward is to stop being a construction worker and become a General Contractor- highly cyclical work, very dependent on the economy. But people need their furnaces, A/C, pipes fixed and wires upgraded in every cycle of the economy.
Matt
My biggest piece of advice is to not force yourself into a field you don’t have an inclination for. Find something you like and go for it. I’ve seen alot of friends that get pushed into college and end up in cubicle jobs being miserable.
mike aka Fazzman
Honestly it really would depend on what trade,Half the crap they teach you in courses doesnt always apply in real world.
When I was taking courses for electronics,I actually had alot of fun and the labs were great. Ive always had a great fondness for figuring out how things work.
The best way to do it is to get in an apprenticeship if you can nowadays.
mike aka Fazzman
Should have mentioned im a machinist by trade,I didnt go to school for it,but ive been doing it all my life. My dad and grandpa were machinists too,I learned the old school way. Now at 40 years old,I can make,fabricate,fix anything.
SteveR
mike–Not everyone enjoys the options you had in life. And yes, there are a lot of things you learn that don’t seem to be directly applicable to your chosen field, whether it’s in college or trade school. At the time you think you’re going to be a stock broker or an electrician, but not everyone follows their initial career path to its logical conclusion. Or, once they get there, discover it’s not what they wanted to do with their life.
And as for those things that seem useless, it’s another way to get you to think things through (problem-solving). As you stated, you enjoyed electronics; the process of figuring things out made you happy.
And you finished with, “Now, at 40 years old, I can make, fabricate, fix anything”. It’s hard to know where the inspiration to learn how to do things comes from. It’s a combination of hard work, perseverance, support from family members and just plain knowledge that we pick up throughout our lives. It may be that if you weren’t required to learn a lot of “useless stuff”, you might not have advanced so far in your career. Solving problems mentally and fabricating things that cure long-standing issues are immensely rewarding.
To paraphrase Stuart, it’s not about the career, but the journey you take to learn how to get there that’s important. It’s about learning how to deal with adversity and then, if possible, working around it to achieve a result.
Andy
I have done both simultaneously. I worked in a trade while putting myself through college. At 19 years old I was already a Foreman. At 20 I was a PM/Foreman making $75,000 per year. Then the market crashed. I’m glad I had college education to fall back on. In my opinion go to college, work trades in summers and school breaks. Graduate with a degree that complements a trade you enjoy.
5bolts
I did neither, and regret it daily. That being said i have a nice comfortable white collar job. But i go to bed stressed, mentally drained but physically wired.
If i had to do it over again i’d go to trade school – machinist/welder – right out of highschool then enlist for the experience.
mike aka Fazzman
I went into the Air Force right after High school,best thing I ever did. They train you,you get to go cool places,etc etc. II was a aircraft crew chief for 8 years.
Military isnt right for everyone,but they teach you and you get college funds nowadays.
Brandon
Do both whenever possible. An educated populous is extremely important.
Many trade unions in my area are working with community colleges to get college credits towards an associates degree for anyone that finished an apprenticeship. I have 45 credit hours available to me and I finished my carpenters apprenticeship well before this program was instituted.
Sure it’s only an associates and its community college, but it’s only an extra 15 credit hours on my part and I have something to set myself apart in a competitive field.
I’m glad I went into an apprenticeship with the union, I made a lot of money while my friends were accumulating debt. I still think higher learning is extremely important. If college was free like most of the work yours be crazy not to go.
garrett
100% agree. Be a well-rounded person and have solid skills and certifications as well as a liberal education. I’m a programmer with a BA in English. Jobs have been plentiful in IS, so I’m blessed. If times got tough, I’d love to know I could make a living in the trades.
If I had to it all over again, I’d drop out of high school the day I turned 17, take my GED, and start college that semester. My wife shudders and gives me all kinds of dirty looks whenever she thinks I’m about to voice that idea to the kids. She’s an educator. Go figure.
fred
When I graduated high school in the early 60’s the options were:
Go into the military
Get a job (and maybe get drafted)
Take a year off – wander around and probably get drafted
Go to trade school – or a community college trade program
Go to Community College – to find out what to major in
Go to a 4 year Liberal Arts College to decide on a major or to prepare for graduate school.
Go to a College/University with a profession in mind like Engineering, Pre-Med, etc.
I may have missed something but these choices are probably still around.
My tuition at one of the Ivy League schools (still held its charter from the King) was $650 per semester – so student loans (a big factor today) was not in the mix. Starting out in the sciences, moving to engineering, going to business school, earning several degrees along the way – working for others and then investing in, running and then selling my share of a business – I still can’t say that I did it right – but the journey had its moments (good and bad) – as does a comfortable retirement.
Joseph Campbell – a long time teacher, author etc. at Sarah Lawrence – was said to have advised his students to “follow your bliss” – probably good advice if you can figure out what that is. If there was a magic formula then most everyone who found it out would be happy and wealthy – but sadly it doesn’t work that way. My advice is to think about what you would like to do , try to decide if you might have some aptitude for it, figure out what you need to do to get there (education, experience, money-tuition, connections etc.). Then try to move down the path you think will work and see if you like it. One commenter said “if you have no work ethic” then go to college. My thought is that if you have no work ethic you better develop a strong one very quickly – no matter what path you select.
Benjamen
My advice to a 17-18 year old is to go to college far away from where you live if it is at all possible. Go as a freshman and experience the full extent of college life. Do not start as a sophomore or junior because you’ve accumulated enough credits. You will miss out on the socialization. Well this last bit might be more relevant for smaller schools.
IMHO college isn’t just about the education, it’s about learning to be a grown up, making connections with people from all over the country, and exposing your mind to new ideas.
I know it isn’t possible for everyone, I know the only way many people can even go is to live with their parents and just scrape by, but I’m just saying if you have the opportunity you shouldn’t waste it.
It’s hard to lump all the trades into one, there are trades like electricians and plumbers who have a rigid apprentice journeyman structure that is long and hard and at least from what I understand there are trades like some machinists that you can train for a short time (6 months to 2 years?) and make good money.
The trades (electrician, plumber) seem like the dark side to me, once you go down that path, you can never return. You put in as much time as becoming a doctor, and you have to start over in any other trade.
I think it’s a mistake to forgo one’s high school education though for a trade program like I’ve seem many people advocate.
Also look for loopholes in your sate laws. In Minnesota (at least many years ago) you could get your master electricians licence with a BS in electrical engineering. My cousin pushed me to do this, but it didn’t feel right to me. I didn’t have the knowledge and experience with the NEC and I really didn’t feel like I would be taken seriously as an outsider. Maybe there are some plant jobs or something like that where it would have been okay.
Tyler
I went the college route. I’m in my 30s now, a good job, with decent pay, and great benefits.
My choice came from childhood experience. I grew up on a family farm and if I wasn’t in school and there was daylight, I was working on the farm. We weren’t rich farmers. Old machinery and lots of manual labor. Fixing fence, throwing bales, cutting thistle in the dead of summer or walking in blizzard conditions to feed livestock.
I’m glad for my childhood. It taught me a lot when it came to responsibilty, hard work, etc, but it also helped me decide I wanted a college education so I went into a computer related degree.
That said, college isn’t for everyone and I think it would benefit everyone if trades were given more consideration and a better viewpoint by society. I know when I was graduating, the menality was college was what you were supposed to do and trades were if you couldn’t do college, which is such malarkey.
darganslayer
My experience is a bit different. I worked in the construction trades (Masonry, tile, granite) throughout high school and college during summers. However, living in the pacific northwest, I saw how miserable it was working through the winters in frozen and wet conditions, and I knew that would get old, quickly. Working conditions are something people should take into consideration as well.
I finished my undergraduate degrees and got a business internship which led to my first job and they eventually paid for me to go back and get my MBA. Now a few years later those, plus business experience, are priceless.
I still use my construction skills (remodeled my house) and hope to one day have a shop and be able to pursue all those things as a hobby (and/or have a skill to fall back on if the economy tanks).
All that being said, I won’t encourage my kids to get a 4 year degree unless they have a clear plan for gainful employment. I’ve seen too many people piss away their parents money in college, or get themselves into crazy debt.
Nathan
what I did isn’t for everyone and I recognize that. I also know I am weird, in HS I knew exactly what I wanted to do – engineering. Fully expected to do mechanical, and then design engines/cars for GM or whomever. Others expected it of me to. I ended up with mechanical engineering but I work in Aviation, for an airline. And I have spent 18 years working on every system on an aircraft from flight controls, to landing gear to Avionics, to electrical and LIghting.
Not everyone gets to do that – often an engineer is shoe horned into a specific area or system.
My dad told me I was either going to college, trade school, or the military. I was very very good at Math and Science so college and engineering was a sure fit. I had to desire to be in the military this was also why Clinton was in Office and there were cutbacks in the military. Today I’d probably do the Gi Bill thing.
Advice to a kid today. First off young adult, sorry but let’s be fair here, he or she is old enough to take a bullet for the country. Pet peeve of mine.
But – what does the person like right now? Are they good at particular subjects? This makes all the difference. I have a cousin that barely graduated HS, fairly mechanically adept though – he fixes tractors today does very well. He hates electrical with a passion though.
SO if the person is good a Math, and or Science – I say go to college and get a real degree. Yes I’ll be that person, there are plenty of degrees in colleges that are not real, sorry but it’s the truth. Political science, sorry are you really going to be a journalist – then do that but before leaving out, double major in something useful to industry, or get a masters and hope for a writing gig.
Don’t get me started on things like art history.
I’m not knocking education degrees – the world does need teachers, at every level and there is some useful psychology taught to teachers today.
If good at math, and I mean more that basic algebra – then they can often workout any other real degree.
If the person learns by doing – trade school, pick any one. I often say, if I can get her to do it – my daughter (now 16 months) will be an electrician. So many people today fear electrons – and don’t know what to do when their light switch doesn’t work. It’d be easy money.
Adam
College was the worst possible route for me. I did great in high school, and went to college that is probably considered pretty good, but not at all for me. Tried different majors, etc, but found out that college is wrong for many people. Now it was my choice, well I would have chosen the military if I could have (diabetes), but the high school I went to pushed college soooo much, without really going over other options. I suppose my grades looked like I was college bound, but I wish I picked up some romex back then instead.
College is highly over rated, especially at the schools that are more to fill your head full of BS, and keep you in debt for way too long for what you get out of it. Everything major I looked at, needed a year of an internship afterwards anyway. To what?, be taught what that company wants you to know at a fraction of pay compared to others. If I didn’t invest 4 years already, that would sound alright, or even more so, it sounds like an apprenticeship.
Xavier
I got a Bachelor’s degree after high school. I’m 30 years old now, and am in an electrician’s apprenticeship. I like having both, each path is good for different people. A couple pointers I’d pass on to my younger self:
1. A college degree allows a bit more job freedom: 30-50% of college graduates never work in a career related to their degree (For example, my degree is in Literature but I worked as a Project Manager for amazon.com doing Operations Logistics). Employers cared about my job experience and willingness to learn & contribute, whereas the focus of my college degree … frankly, just wasn’t very relevant. But with trades, you get journeyed and licensed in THAT trade. If you want to switch to something unrelated, you often (not always) have to start from scratch. So, if I was unsure about what I wanted to do, college seems like the safer bet if you think you’ll want to drift into other career paths later.
2. In trades OR college, specialization MATTERS. I started a carpentry business at the same time I started a freelance copy editing business (very different fields allowed for a diversified income stream in case the economy tanked). I was very surprised when I got way, way more carpentry work than copy editing. As it turns out, everybody thinks they can write/edit professionally—no (formal) training is required. Carpentry required a specific skill set my customers didn’t have. Lesson: trades are specialized by design, but college degrees can be very broad—mine was in Literature, minored in Philosophy. Those were excellent degrees to become well-read and discover myself, which WILL help you in business and greatly shaped my adult self, but ultimately they didn’t provide any TANGIBLE skills, which is what gets you jobs. If I could do college again, I’d go for a more specific degree.
caleb
Same here. B.A. in Psychology, Elementary Education now back in school as an electrician apprentice to help pay of my loans and take care of my family. Going to college was a great opportunity to take my sport the furthest it could go and get a well rounded education. My employers appreciate my experiences and I enjoy continuing my education.
billiam
Oh wow. We need kids to do both. I am ok with either. However, if you choose to go to college, for heaven sake, get a degree that is flexible in the business world like finance, business, etc. I would recommend staying away from the social sciences and the arts unless you are just the best at what you are doing. But, also realize that we need electricians, plumbers, etc. And those jobs pay well. What does the kids enjoy doing. If I had to do it over again, I would definitely go the vocational path. I think the idea that all kids should go to college is an absolute waste and just plain silly.
Diplomatic Immunity
I would say do what you want and if you don’t like either option then do whatever makes you money. With a trade you won’t end up with a stupid amount of student loan debt. Neither route is a guarantee of employment though especially with the economy being in another bubble about to burst.
Daniel
The problem is that youth aren’t exposed to the “trade” as they were. They don’t work in the garage or help their parents in ways they used to. This is what inspires kids. Browsing Facebook and goofing around with video games doesn’t inspire. Now, students get to college not knowing what the hell they are doing, graduate with degrees in liberal arts or feminist literature, along with $100k in student debt, and no direction in life. Then they want handouts and complain that they can’t afford to pay the loans because they can’t make jack shiznit with the limited knowledge and skills they have. It has to start very young and society needs to lay off the college emphasis. Once a child has inspiration, the rest follows very closely.
As for me, I used to go to my stepdad’s work with him and learn things about building a house and using some basic tools. Later on, I picked up encyclopedias (WTF are those?) and had books on astronomy, a telescope and a microscope and spent a lot of time learning about science. I eventually concentrated more on math in high school and had interests that led to a career only a university education could provide. I have a BS in physics and a masters in mechanical engineering. My interests as a child had made me fairly mechanically inclined and I do as much as I can myself. I have quite a few tools, now, a mill, a lathe and the ability to learn more due to my curiosity. I’ve met too many kids who don’t have that curiosity.
One last anecdote. My fiance had a special ed 11th grade student a couple years ago who was extremely socially awkward. He wore a tool belt and hard hat to school every day and didn’t get the most positive attention. However, this kid was bright, and I mean super smart. She read to me some of his writings and it was phenomenal. She mentioned to me that he wanted to learn to weld. I told her to encourage him to go take a class and find an internship somewhere ASAP!! I have no doubt that he could be making $70-80k in no time.
Yadda
I went to college eventually got my degree and now I make a nice living in the financial services industry. My brother went into the Army, came out and went to trade school for heating and cooling. He now owns his own business. our salaries are comparable. neither of us would change what we did. The path you choose is your own. if you work hard and apply yourself to your chosen profession you will be successful.
MG
I have a college degree, a master’s degree, and all sort of professional certifications. I am living the good life…but recently since Crude Oil is what ~$25.xx Today???
Thus, I am unemployed and sitting in front of my computer sending out resumes and attending Job Fairs and Networking, hoping to get a new job by mid year….So I can buy more tools and hire more of you tradesmen 😉
…I have Finished the “Honey Do list” (well cannot lie that list has no end)
I love learning from my friends that are in the trades and am a DIYer, but know my limitations.
I really enjoy the trades and respect all our tradesmen. My dad was a Journeyman Pipe Fitter and then later became a Licensed Journeyman Diesel Mechanic…
He is retired and doing well.
He pushed all his kids (me Included) to get college educations.
Today a lot of good Plumbers, Electricians and HVAC guys have their businesses here and have a team of people under them. Making the BIG BUCKS! My friend that has a HVAC business (because he is good at what he does) makes more than I did as a Engineering Project Manager. He never went to college.
If I could do it all over again, like others have mentioned, I probably would have gone to the Military for the experience/training.
We need all jobs…and jobs in America First.
Adam
Not to steer the post toward politics… but are you finding a lot of your potential job prospects are lost to outsourcing? Or is the “American jobs first” unrelated?
MG
Adam,
There is a lot of Outsourcing going on. Even in the engineering space. My Job was impacted by both oil prices tanking and outsourcing. The whole idea about find the lowest paid talent…Good news is that I received a offer at a smaller company, so until they grow to a size then decide I am “too expensive”, I will be fine.
There is pros and cons to having worker protection methods like countries in Europe…One con I see is that they hire a lot less there. In many of those countries. unemployment normal rates are over 10%.
However, the US needs to crack down on the BS that many majors claim that they “can’t find skilled qualified tech workers here,” What these companies are saying is that they can’t find skilled qualified tech workers that will work at 1/3 what that job in America pays.
Fran Tark
Refreshing to read so many posts that see such a big picture of things. The title of the article here is misleading. And it’s an all too common thought process… Things are made out to be “either/or” and “black or white.” The ideal situation is to do both college AND learn a trade. They complement each other so well and few people are willing to recognize it. Forget ” trade VS college.”
The problem solving skills that are acquired when learning a trade come in real handy when writing term papers and seeing multiple sides of an issue. It’s not the act of turning the wrench that educates…. It’s learning which wrenches are available, which wrench to use and how to manipulate it to your advantage to gain the best solution.
My grandfather dropped out of high school and worked as a machinist for 65 years, owning his own company for the last 30 of those years. At one time he employed 60 people in his shop. He could run every machine, solve every problem and had the greatest people skills of anyone I ever met. His employees adored him.
My dad worked in factories his entire life and eventually owned his own, as well.
I found sports to be my ticket and only went to college because of that. Scholarships paved my way and I ended up with an AA degree, BA degree, and MA Ed. Degree. Stayed involved in the sporting world but continually used the knowledge of the machine shops I grew up in AND the academics I had to endure as an athlete.
Now I’m out of athletics and in the trades at a very small level and I like it just as much as big time ncaa sports. They are different, but so many skills transfer, people have no idea.
Forget VERSUS…. Just get EDUCATED in every possible way. That’s my $.02!
Stuart
That’s a good point, and I was hoping there would be a few people saying “why not do both!”
My intent wasn’t for the title to be misleading, but for it to be simple and concise.
Not Important
This is my fourth edit and instead of the several thousand word soapbox I began with this afternoon, I have pared it down to the following three excerpts:
‘Nobody was there to help me, loans were impossible due to legal situations beyond my control, and I spent many weeks of many months of many years balancing a checkbook to the exact penny so I could financially stay in the black. I sold blood and plasma, did clinical trials, and ebayed my childhood away, but not once took a handout from anyone. If I didn’t love my wife and two kids more than anything on this earth, given the chance, I would have done everything different.’
‘I teach juniors and they are at that critical stage where they are forming the foundation for what will be life decisions. I can’t teach responsibility, perseverance, or grit because it is not in my curriculum. The campus/district policies have worked in the ability to turn in work up to 8 weeks late and only get a 20% penalty, mandatory retakes of any failed major grade, failure of any 9 weeks period and mandatory credit protection, or better yet fail a semester and make it up in credit recovery in 2-3 weeks (literally 2-3 weeks in credit recovery will replace an entire semester of doing nothing). We even took away D’s. Seriously. There are no D’s. Failure is not an option and there is no longer any fear or shame associated with not passing.’
‘I am an advocate for the military, for trade schools, apprenticeships, and college. They are all the right decision based on the person. I am an even larger advocate for giving these kids the tools they need to make a plan. One they can start the day the coddling confines of secondary education ends. Most importantly though, I am an advocate for teaching work ethic and an honor code. ‘
At this point several people have chimed in and it seems that the ability to make money is the indicator of success. I beg all to consider the importance of work ethic, honor, craftsmanship, and pride amongst many other wayward characteristics of success. Money should be the secondary or even end result of putting these society enriching identifiers first.
Xavier
Agreed that money shouldn’t be the only (or primary) driving factor. Well said.
William
I’m 18. I graduated high school last June. I am a carpenter at a remodeling company and am working on expanding my own business. I was in a trade program my last two years in HS. I enjoyed it, but I learned 100 times more while working.
I dint’t apply to a single college. Senior year was easy and STRESS FREE. The majority of my friends have gone to college. Some don’t know what they want to major in. They stayed up to the wee parts of the morning studying and applying for schools. I took one online class at community college. I am there for the information, I don’t care about a degree. In my opinion, if you know what you want to do in life, figure out if it requires a degree. I know what I want to do, open my own woodworking and construction company. Take individual classes at community college as you find you need/want the knowledge from the class. Lots of degrees require classes that you will never use (I don’t need to know any math higher than basic trig).
I would strongly encourage kids to enter the workforce and learn a trade. Carpentry will never be outsourced, pipes will always clog, and light fixture will always need replacing.
John G
A good trade is always in demand. I spent my 20’s in college between my MBA and Law school and it still took me nearly 10 yrs to catch up in pay with my general contractor friends. I hate to say it but in many instances, a college degree is a bit overrated. As a lawyer, the hours and stress is miserable.
Matt
Its hard out here(there) no matter what path you take. Money, kids, retirement, student loans, mortgage, cable, braces, mini vans, Disney, Festool and Makita…… Money money money,
Our world is driven by our ability to provide individually isolated levels of comfort which change from person to person. What i need to to gain as income to stay afloat is different from the next guy and so on. So based in this, my advice would be to find a gig that can help carry you. Find your comfort zone and feed it. Its easy to find that one job that will pay you just that right amount to keep you lulled but happy. A lot if businesses prefer that college diploma to get that foot in the door. So maybe you should go to school..
But there is still that dreaming part of me…
The one that says dip your toe in everything you can. Go to school. Get married. Get a degree. Hate your degree. Get a job. Pick up a hammer. Try something new. Have kids. Work late. Go back to school. Go in debt. Buy a TV. Steal a car. Try an apprenticeship. Build a house. Keep trying. Find your niche. Do what you love. Have passion. Never settle.
Then again, maybe im not someone who should be giving advice.
chris parker
i am re-evaluating my life after being a chef in new orleans for 20 years..i am for the most part just now really getting into this whole woodworking thing, and would really like to learn as much as i can..right now youtube, and articles have been my teacher..i am lucky to be artistic, and with a good sense of ability..i would love to find an apprenticeship in my area to help me in my endeavor…having to start from scratch buying tools has been challenging..i love this site so much just for the up to date heads up alone, but it’s post like this that make me perk up in my seat and get excited..i just got a ridgid r4516 for 200 over the holidays, but i am debating returning and saving for the cabinet model on craigslist or even new..i am noticing that a table saw of good quality and future capabilities is a very, very important start to my first shop pieces to do quality work..sorry to get off topic, i should go back and read more of the comments to see if i can find something that relates to my situation, and best way to move forward..thank you guys so much for everything you do..you have been my most prized resource on most everything so far.
Nate818
Go to college to meet women
Justin
Last I saw, average incomes for recent college grads was around/under 40k. Unemployment/underemployment was high and student loan debts were absurd.
Working in the trades can get you up to the median income quickly if you’re good with your hands and can pick it up. Especially right now, I’m hearing builders complaining about now enough tradesmen to keep up with all the new housing in my area (AZ).
I still believe there is a need for college, but the general thought of everyone needing a college degree is really only benefiting the schools. Today, I see a lot of kids going to college just to delay the decision of what to do with themselves, and racking up lots of debt while doing it.
My advice for graduating HS students is this:
you know exactly what you want to do and need a degree – go to college
you know exactly what you want to do and its a trade – go to trade school
you don’t know anything because 5 minutes ago you had to ask to go to the bathroom and now you’re considered and adult – get a job, take some classes at a local community college, figure out what you like to do, and pursue it. Don’t waste time and money on school/training you’ll never need or use.
Tomonthebeach
I think that choice of a career path should start with what you are passionate about doing. Alas, many of us are good at many things – the dilemma of adolescence. However, we are likely only passionate about a few things, and there is nothing wrong with experimenting for a year or two to make up your mind.
In life, success is less a matter of where you start out, than it is where you wind up. Over the years, I have met a lot of people in trades who were every bit as bright as my colleagues with PhDs and MDs. The title of professor, doctor, or lawyer, sounds more prestigious than carpenter, plumber, or electrician. However, people pursuing a career in the professions spend much of their first dozen or so years in the not-so-prestigious role of student, intern, or lab assistant. During that same period, successful people who started out as plumbers, electricians, or carpenters are by their mid 30s contractors, service managers, or business owners – relatively more impressive career titles.
It is worth keeping in mind that the college dropout rate nationally is about 50%. The emphasis on linking college to success is likely due to relentless hype from presidents, politicians, and teachers (collegiates all) promoting college as a guarantee of success. What do they know about trades? Bupkis! From kindergarten onwards, the US education system focuses on one thing – preparing students for college. Our educational system ignores the trades, even though most high school grads will not be earning bachelors degrees.
Lukas
I went to college and got my degree in engineering. By the time I graduated I wasn’t exactly in love with the idea of a desk job. It was also difficult to find work at the time. A few years later I got into a union apprenticeship program to become a inside wireman. I’m in my 4th year of that program now. Regrets? None. Recommendations? That depends what you want to do. The pay is very similar in my area but the work is very different. The apprenticeship is also free so we get paid as we go and have no debt at the end.
Mike
LOTS of awesome comments here! I’m 25 and graduate college myself with a degree in political science 3 years ago. Was headed the route toward law school before leaving my legal assistant job to work at a marina. Always loved boats and needed a change. I now work in a marine service department on the path to become a marine technician. 180 degrees the other direction.
I would not trade my college experience for anything. If nothing else, it provided me with the ability to think deeply, and rationally about this particular issue which has been at the forefront of my life for a year or two. My opinion…do both if possible! I love being able to chat with lawyers about local statutes and marine techs about motor rebuilds! Lots of interesting people out there with lots of incredible stuff to teach!
DaveMD
If you have a great work ethic, you will do well in both.
I can only speak from experience, as a teenager i worked for a site contractor while going to college. It took longer to graduate but i had a resume and a degree, by 23 most of my friends only had one or neither of those. I was quickly hired by a GC due to my experience, took on more work for less money to gain experience. Ten years later i have the ability to name my salary when interveiwing for new jobs.
I have a lot of friends in the trades, some make great money, some get by. Those that make great money have taken some college classes (mostly business) but all have a great work ethic. The reality of college is that the first two years is just an extention of high school. The last two years are when you really learn something. Do both.
Steve J
Recommend considering the military option. You can learn some serious trade skills and earn money for college (G.I. Bill). For example, the Navy Seabees (CBs) are construction battalions that can build just about anything from buildings to roads, bridges and airfields. Another option might be an aviation squadron mechanic working on high performance aircraft. The military supports its service members earning the equivalent civilian licenses and ratings so you can transition to a civilian career when you are done.
Retirement is after 20 years of active or you can get out early and join the reserves which also earns a retirement but allows you to work in a regular civilian job.
Travel is a serious part of education and life experience that the military can also provide. Sure you can learn how to build an antenna farm in the U.S., but how many people have done that in Madagascar?
The reserve option is also a great fall back option in case of hard times with a civilian career. There are many opportunities for reservists to go on long term active duty orders.
firefly
“Stay hungry, stay foolish” as Steve Jobs said. Passion will drive the quest for knowledge.
Passion, knowledge and connection will get us anywhere we want to be in life.
It really doesn’t matter which path we take, what matter is how well will we follow through. I went with the college route. However I have never been a fan of a formal education. Though I have done very well in college and it did help me in many way I have to confess college barely taught anything. To be honest if one couldn’t learn anything on his own, he wouldn’t be able to learn much in college. That’s why I think very little of a higher formal education as far as the quest for knowledge go. If one have the aptitude to read and learn, they would be able to do so almost anywhere and they probably excel regardless of the path they chose.
What college did give me is friendship, connections and credibility. Though I barely learn anything from the formal education (certainly there were a few interesting class, but a good number of class are teach by less than qualified instructor who clearly only there for the money) I did learn a lot from my friends and some of the professors. However the same can be said if I have chosen any other paths. How much we learn is totally up to us. So long as we aren’t stop learning we’ll always move forward regardless of which path we chose.
Andrew
I am incredibly glad to see this topic because it hits close to home.
Long story short, I was surrounded, growing up, my skilled craftsmen. My parents were immigrants so working with one’s hands was a given. Machinists, mechanics, carpenters, electricians … everyone in my family could do it themselves. Except me. I went into journalism — sports, to be exact — and figured, like most of my age, that I’d make enough money someday to pay people to do “that stuff” for me.
Lets fast-forward 20 years. Print journalism is a disaster thanks to the internet and blo…. uh, sorry, Stuart 🙂 … Print journalism is a disaster. And suddenly, I found myself needing to accomplish a project without tools or help. So I taught myself. Now, I have a growing side business doing small projects and repairs and I’m heading back to school soon for cabinet making.
I often get asked to come speak to high school and college journalism classes. I always told them to go minor in something practical, like marketing or teaching, where they can find an easy job and a healthy paycheck because J-jobs are hard to come by.
Now, though, I tell them point-blank: LEARN A TRADE. Not everybody is cut out for college. But, unfortunately, society seems to think the only people worth a damn are the ones with two, three or four diplomas on a wall (in cheap, foreign-made, pressed-sawdust frames. might i add) and a mountain of student loan debt. But then, they get out with fancy degrees; can’t find a job, go back for a masters and wind up in the same spot … just with more debt.
Meanwhile, the need for skilled tradesmen and women grows by the day. Good paying jobs go unfilled. Why? Because we’ve painted the skilled trades as a field of last resort. And that’s sad.
There’s way too many people like me, who never bothered to use a screwdriver. It’s great for business, but bad for society.
Mr. X
I teach the Electrical trade at a technical high school so I have a direct perspective on this topic. Most of my students pursue a career as a licensed electrician. Here in Massachusetts, that means additional schooling after graduation to earn the necessary hours to qualify for the license exam. Last year, twelve students graduated from my program. Eight are on track to get their electrician license. The other four are attending college, all studying electrical engineering.
Too many students graduate with no marketable skill and have trouble finding work after college. Add in the high cost of education and post-secondary education can easily be understood as a bad investment. The university system is a business, make no mistake. Graduating from college with $200K in student loans and no prospect for employment is a bad position to be in. Colleges should be held accountable for stipulating employment opportunities associated with a given major. While education is an inherently good thing, education for its own sake is a waste. The goal of education should be to improve the human condition, either through employment, or contribution to society.
Dylan
I’m 16. I plan on going to a vocational school next year for carpentry. I really like doing that work, we bought a house this year that was a total fixer upper. I learned a lot and I know I like this field.
RX9
My advice to kids on this issue would be to read author Aaron Clarey’s book “Worthless”.
The gist of it is don’t get into a ton of debt majoring in something with no real market demand.
Grady
I persued a trade during the day, and college at night. It was the perfect path for me, and should be for everyone . I believe today’s college student believes they are owed something, and the tradesmen have payed their dues and are being pushed aside. I could ramble for hours for an against both sides. The truth is the two sides have battled since the being of time and will continue to the end of time, when they should be welcoming each other.
I once worked for a man who had a PhD in physics, and had taught physics to grad students. He shamefully admitted he was a bad physicist. He felt because of his education, he was a success. I felt he had wasted a lot of time and money.
A sharp mind and dirty hands are a success!
doug in GA
If someone needed some computer code written or X-ray reviewed they could contact via the net a guy in India to do it for far less money.
But it will be a long time before they can outsource their leaky roof or clogged toilet overseas.
ktash
My brother is in HVAC. He’s never wanted for a good job. He eventually got an associates degree and various certifications. He works hard, but I agree that if you are in the right trade, you will be needed. We still need plumbers, electricians, HVAC, etc in our lives. The other thing about my brother is that he seeks to understand problems and how things work. He complains about the guys at work who don’t think. They just want to follow some kind of directions they learned and if that doesn’t work, they are clueless. My point is that you have to work with your hands, brain, and work hard. He’s a grumpy guy, not the best personality, but they value him because of his skills. So, he’ll always have a job, even if he pisses off his boss. He’ll also have a pension when he retires.
My niece is a business lawyer, on a track to become partner in her firm. Sixty-hour weeks are the norm for her. She’s always stressed out. She’s very good, but for years has worked like a dog to get there. This is true of others I know in her generation who have white collar jobs. She doesn’t get overtime for working, because “professionals” are supposed to be above that. This snobbery is just a way to wring more work out of people.
Both the trades and college are good choices, and in both cases you have to be good at what you do. If you like what you do, that’s key. But the insane work schedules that are expected don’t leave people with much of a life outside work. Plus the student loan thing is insane. Plus there are rip-offs of student loan monies by some schools that profess to be trade schools.
BJ
I got an associate’s in HVAC while in high school as I got half off tuition. 18 started working at a company doing pretty well, 18-20 an hour. Install beats you up, and service kills your knees. I eventually got a stationary engineers license and recently got my journeyman license as well for the city I work in.
I work with a master tech and we run a business together, and I work for Kiewit construction full time for benefits and retirement. 23 now making 60k a year pay benefits are about 15k worth a year, and I do about 20 a year in side work for now. Id say that trades allow you to go at your own pace.
EastBayGrease
After reading all of the above posts, I believe that one difference between “white collar” jobs and the trades has not been addressed.
I “followed my bliss” and forewent a competitive, neuroscience PhD program to enter the home remodeling/ cabinetry industry. After working at Design + Build firms and cabinet shops, one negative component of the trades that I did not foresee is exposure to harmful substances. Despite working at successful, up market, and well respected residential construction firms, I’ve been exposed to a gamut of harmful chemicals.
At cabinet shops, I’m inhaling wood dust (a carcinogen) all day. As an apprentice, I was regularly exposed to conversion varnish and nitro lacquer overspray. I once demo’d an old vinyl tile floor only to have the experienced PM later question whether or not it was asbestos. I cut open a drywall ceiling, dust falling in my face, only to later find out that the coworker who told me that it “Wasn’t lead paint” was mistaken. The electrician whom I assisted had fiberglass moving its way through his fingernails because he is constantly crawling around fiberglass insulation. I’m in the room when the countertop guy suddenly starts grinding away, filling the room with harmful silica particles. The plumber I worked with spent all day crawling under houses, breathing in dirt dust, which is horrible on the lungs. A dust mask is only so much help. At the end of a demo job, every coworker always had visible particles sitting inside the mask.
This is not to mention the physical risks. No matter how careful you are, the sub working next you might be getting off of a bender and bump into the ladder you are standing on or turn on the breaker while you are wiring up outlets. On top of that, your income is entirely dependent on your body. A bad injury and you’re up a creek without a paddle. I know a carpenter who is addicted to pain killers because he had an accident and can’t do his job without severe pain.
While an office job might be boring, getting paid to sit in a comfy chair and check Facebook might sound really appealing to someone who is crawling through 2 ft crawl spaces and squirming under asbestos pipe on the daily for the same amount of money.
doug in GA
Good points. Build decks all day and you will surely have breathed more than your fair share of treated lumber dust.
But on the flip side, I walk miles a day (mostly back to the truck to get what i forgot), bend, squat, lift, stretch, repeat, all day long. I have no need for a gym membership and am not 30 pounds overweight either. So maybe the benefit of physical labor outweighs the the advantage of sitting idle all day in a sealed high-rise?
Ryan
This is something I have a lot to say on. For the sake of selling my life to this post, I won’t, but…
I did both. I was going to college for physical fitness and strength training. I was always a bit of a gym rat and enjoyed helping others meet goals. I also felt that if I immersed myself in that lifestyle I couldn’t possibly become out of shape myself. I was raised on an acreage in the country side of Oklahoma, and chores (indoor and out) were never short of plenty. My brothers and I spend most of our time as young people helping (and hurting) the homestead, alongside our father, who is very respectable jack-of-all-trades type. He built the home we grew up in little by little. In fact, the house was mostly incomplete for the majority of my life. Completing the house only to start remodeling the older parts as I reached my twenties.
As I made my way through college, I worked as a landscape laborer. This is where I learned most of what I know now as a tradesman, or supplemented what I learned working alongside dear ol’ Dad. I also faired very well as a hand and learned new things very quickly, having had a tool and labor rich childhood. I later decided that building is what I loved. I changed my degree program and transferred to Oklahoma City’s OSU campus and finalized a degree in landscape design and construction.
My point would be that, you can do both. It’s not easy, and you don’t have to do it like I (or anyone else) did. But I have two college degrees in two very different fields and even if I left the Landscape world professionally, I now have skills that will last a lifetime and supplement my hobbies from here on! I also believe that tradesmen are becoming a fleeting thing.. I would love to see more people learn trades and develop proficiency with tools. Likewise, a higher education is something everyone owes themselves. My two cents, anyway.
max
I have 2 degrees and almost a 3rd. Probably start working on the fourth after this is done. I went a route that is primarily low-paying and generally working with non-profits (churches or other charities/ministries). Right now I am working 40-50 hours a week in a field that is for-profit, but still has a positive impact on the community.
Sometimes I wish I had learned a trade first. Part of the reason why I am doing what I am doing is to pay some bills before trying to start my own non-profit. I would do that much more efficiently as a electrician or plumber. I also enjoy working with my hands and do most of my own work on the house and vehicles. The big downside of my current job is that I sit around. A lot. I would prefer to do something that was more involved so I would not have to spend so much of what would otherwise be family time getting exercise.
On the other side, I truly value what I have learned in college. I have spent a lot of time with very wise men in two great institutions. The subject matter has really changed how I live my life and positively affected those around me.
It is hard to find a good balance. If I was 18 and figuring it out all over again I think I would have tried to find a balance and started working a trade while getting a bachelor’s degree in something related and then moved toward the specialized degrees in the graduate level. Because really, the BA is the one that I have which is mostly worthless. It would have been better t have something more practical.
But I did go to college during the “don’t learn a trade; go to college and you are guaranteed to get a high paying job doing what you love” when reality is far from that. Having a degree does not really have much to do with how much you will make.
Nathan
This is an excellent discussion to bring up and i think you for that. I am in a very similar position to the OP. I have always been curious and had a lot of interests. Between family members in academic (and medical) fields and the negative spin that trade jobs get in across the board in media in the US, i never really considered a trade, even though my father encouraged me to get into electrician work at some point.
So what i did is a shotgun approach to college diplomas: different fields of science and engineering. With a Ph.D. in science/engineering, i’m not really sure it was the best route to take, and i always take the opportunity to talk to prospective students about the decision.
It’s really too bad we don’t give trades the respect they get in Europe and other areas. Fortunately, i’ve had experiences since college to give me a more balanced view of the two options discussed here and my answer would be (as trite as it sounds):
do whatever excites you.
If nothing excites you, i suggest you get into an apprenticed trade as early as you can (high school if possible) and then start working on a bachelor’s degree when you graduate high school. People always need nurses, plumbers, and A/C repair technicians. They don’t always need researchers or whatnot. Having a trade you can do as a fallback (or first choice if you end up liking it) is an excellent plan, even if you do end up firmly planted in the post-college career world, because it gives you perspective and empathy and a backup.
Richard
First, let’s see what skills a person possesses. 2nd what does he or she like to do? Are those skills improvable? What interests this person and can they become proficient and marketable?Most jobs, if done seriously and honorably, can produce money enough for a good life. The personal satisfaction of a good job done well, is more satisfying than how much they earned doing it! If you don’t enjoy your job- find another. You will fail if you don’t.
Chris
It is an interesting subject, and there are certainly pros and cons to both options. A lot of people undertake majors which have very bad employment prospects and are then surprised that they can’t find a job after graduation. If you know what you want to do before starting and know how to get there you have a much better chance of success (this sadly is not the case for most college students from my experience). I went the university route, and was one of the lucky few who knew where I wanted to go and how to get there, although I very nearly went in the opposite direction with an electrical apprenticeship. Funnily enough from reading some of these comments, my job as a metallurgical engineer sound more like a trade than a traditional white collar job, with long days in a very harsh environment, but I can’t say I would do it any differently given the chance.