I have some qualms about Hilti, which I won’t get into, but they just earned mega points with me.
How? They answered a couple of questions about their thermal imaging camera – including a very tough one – in the realest way possible.
Here’s what I asked as part of a longer conversation catching me up about their latest new tools:
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The PT-C thermal camera might be too high-valued to justify a test sample, but I have a lot of questions. I’m not familiar with the 12V line, but see that there’s a 21700-based pack. Is that new? What other tools leverage its higher power?
Is the camera capable of videos, or just photos? What’s the refresh rate (Hz)? Is there contrast boosting, such as found in other products with lower-resolution sensors, or any type of video image overlap? How many false color modes aside from rainbow? Is there supporting measurement software, such as what’s available with brands with machinery and building inspection tools (such as FLIR)?
Why buy the Hilti PT-C over other brands’ thermal imaging cameras?
That last question is always a tough one. Why buy the Hilti product over other brands’?
I always hope for honest and frank answers to questions like that, but am disappointed more often than not.
I don’t know what I expected, but was surprised and pleased with the answer.
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Here’s how they answered all of these questions:
I’m not familiar with the 12V line, but see that there’s a 21700-based pack. Is that new?
No, it’s not – we have had it for a few years. What other tools leverage its higher power? Most of our 12V tools can run off of either of our 12V batteries.
Is the camera capable of videos, or just photos?
The camera is capable of only photos at this time– every time a picture is taken, one thermal and one normal picture is captured.
What’s the refresh rate (Hz)?
Will circle back on this one.
I asked this because most handheld thermal imaging cameras have a 9Hz refresh rate, and some higher-end cameras have a 30Hz rate.
Is there contrast boosting, such as found in other products with lower-resolution sensors, or any type of video image overlap?
You can set the thermal range and that will give you a higher contrast.
I am a huge fan of contrast boosting, which is very different from visual-thermal overlays.
How many false color modes aside from rainbow?
There are 5 different color schemes in addition to normal camera mode with hot or cold spots highlighted in red or blue.
The normal camera mode with hot or cold spot highlights seems like it could be a useful feature, especially for building easy-to-digest reports.
Is there supporting measurement software, such as what’s available with brands with machinery and building inspection tools (such as FLIR)?
No software integration at this time. Pictures can be exported as .jpg file and voice recording as a .wav file
Why buy the Hilti PT-C over other brands’ thermal imaging cameras?
Hilti’s PT-C offers high image definition with a broad thermal range (-4 – +1112F) and the ability to record voice notes. It is covered by Hilti’s 20-2-1 warranty and includes 2x calibrations during the 2-year period.
20-2-1?? Is that a typo? Apparently not.
Here’s what it says on Hilti’s site:
20 YEAR Materials and workmanship warranty
Hilti will repair or replace parts that break as a result of defects in materials or workmanship for 20 years.
2 YEAR Wear and tear coverage
Hilti will repair tools at no cost for 2 years from the date of purchase. Damage due to wear and tear is covered. No charges for parts, labor, or even shipping.
1 DAY In and out of the repair center in one day, guaranteed, or the repair is free.
If Hilti does not repair a tool the same day it is received in a Tool Service Center then the repair is free – including parts, labor and shipping.
There’s some fine print, but this is the gist of the warranty period.
You get 2 free calibrations during the 2-year period? Sounds pretty sweet.
Hilti advertises the thermal imager as:
Infrared camera for thermal imaging, for inspecting electrical, mechanical, piping, and HVAC applications.
It sounds like they optimized the camera for exactly those types of users, and left out unneeded frills.
Back to the last question. They gave me a real answer without trying to be persuasive, and definitely without being hyperbolic.
I tend to greatly appreciate the “show, don’t tell” approach.
Maybe 50% of tool brands try to convince me that everything they make is exceptionally good, top-tier, and the best of the best. The other 50% of tool brands give me no-BS answers, information, and insights that contribute towards objective understanding.
I don’t know Hilti as well as I do other brands. But from interactions like this, I’m looking forward to doing my part to change that.
My qualms with Hilti mainly have to do with whether they’re truly interested in individual users, rather than commercial buyers, and they’re slowly easing my concerns.
As for why I didn’t want to just request a loaner or review sample, I tend to be polarized about thermal imaging cameras and technology. The Hilti PT-C seems very similar to the Bosch GTC600C, and both don’t seem as appealing to me as models from dedicated test instrument and thermal imaging brands.
Hilti’s answers change my preconception a little bit, and I suppose my interest now depends on yours.
Ken
I would love to read a post that breaks down thermal imaging tech and available options with a focus on models suitable for regular people including DIYers. I could really use a thermal imaging camera for several projects at my home. My concern is that the affordable models seem like toys, and the capable models are priced into the stratosphere.
The high cost is a problem for people like myself because the amount of time I would actually use such a tool would be measured in minutes or hours, so justifying the purchase is difficult. Renting is not a great option either because I think the use case would be sporadic checking of an insulation or air tightness project as it progressed over days, weeks, or even months and across different seasons.
Stuart
The problem is, some of those differentiators are hard to get.
Flir doesn’t do PR/media anymore. Although they regularly bombard me with sales solicitations, there’s no one there I trust to give me straight answers. They have in the past maintained what seemed to be artificial pricing tiers based on thermal resolution, despite breakdowns and unauthorized unlocks showing identical construction, and that less expensive models were equipped with the same higher resolution sensors.
A lot of inexpensive cameras from many different brands are actually nicely spec’ed.
I have tried a couple of brands of thermal imaging cameras, different styles of cameras, and also consumer-focused models.
At under $1000, the Flir pocket cameras seem to be the most reasonable, and feature their patented MSX emboss tech that overlays visual contrast over thermal images.
Fluke also has one, and so does Seek thermal.
I tested a Fluke thermal imager years ago, and hated it. I felt it was glitchy and massively overpriced.
Seek has been around for a while now. There are also other brands I’m not very familiar with, such as Reed.
The hard part is knowing when you’re paying more for added value, or what I feel to be pricing games, such as what Flir seems to do.
Construction brand products, such as this one, have appeal because they avoid a lengthy selection process. If you trust the brand, you work with what they offer.
Anyway… in still trying to be brief:
Thermal resolution is the most important factor. The higher the numbers, the more measurement datapoints and the greater the resolution of the image.
After that, it’s a matter of software.
If you need different lenses or a specific refresh range, you’d better understand why and prepare to spend a lot more.
My Flir E4 is a decade old now, and so I’ll probably buy a new battery for it soon. You can’t do that with pocketable devices or phone attachments.
I’ve wanted to buy a desktop-suitable model for years, but the pricing never goes down, and improvements are rarely made.
The actual sensor tech has changed a little over the past 10-20 years, but besides resolution it’s mainly the software that contributes to different user experiences.
The biggest annoyance with my Flir is that it almost constantly auto-calibrates, which is like a hiccup or speed bump. But I’m not sure which brand I’d trust most over them, pricing complaints and considerations notwithstanding.
As mentioned, the Hilti seems almost identical to the newest Bosch. Flir has handhelds in the same price range.
Klein has a couple of pocket imagers, including an “ultra hi res” model https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BWC6NNWF/?tag=toolguyd-20 , but I can’t take it seriously.
They advertise it as having “ultra hi resolution” with “over 49,000 pixels.” What’s the thermal resolution??
Even on their website, the sensor resolution is listed as “49,152 pixels.” That’s what, under 250×200? That’s hardly what I’d consider “high resolution.”
There are a ton of unknown brands that sell thermal imaging cameras with 256×192 pixels and the same resolution.
Klein’s less expensive “over 10,000 pixels” “high resolution” model has a “frequently returned item” warning on Amazon.
The brand’s advertising focus and things like “3 pallets” give me pause.
Basically, I’m very offput by a lot of brands and models. For DIY use, I might look at Seek thermal. For work use, I might look at Hilti or Bosch, especially after I had this brief low-pressure exchange with Hilti.
For more serious work where someone else is paying the bill with a deep equipment budget, I’d then look at Flir.
Pocket and phone-attachment devices have their place. But like you I consider them more as toys. However, they’re one of the only ways to get brand-name tech for under $1000.
Ken
A+ post! It sounds like my impression of the thermal imaging landscape is similar to your much more informed understanding. Disappointing that this tech has not advanced faster or come down in price, especially because of how useful it would be for improving the energy efficiency of homes. Think of how many homes are out there with a gaping hole in the thermal envelope that the owner is simply unaware of and would require <$50 and and hour of work to fix. A cheap thermal imaging device is the only feasible way to discover this kind of low-hanging fruit. Thermal imaging cameras need to become more like laser levels in availability and cost.
It would be incredible if one of the major smartphone manufacturers could figure out how to integrate a thermal imaging sensor into their devices on a mass scale, but from what I understand the component costs make that scenario unlikely anytime soon.
Stuart
Thermal imaging can be tricky and requires understanding, experience, and in most cases both.
Harrison
I personally like Hilti, even if they aren’t always the right fit for my needs. I think they offer a unique value for more than just commercial customers- their prices really aren’t that bad if they have what you need. I like that there is at least one professional tool brand that hasn’t given in fully to lifestyle products… You’ll never find Hilti selling homeowner-grade lawnmowers, or pumps for inflating beach balls.
That said, Hilti is clearly pushing beyond their traditional concrete construction and fastening niche, with more lower cost tools that appeal to general contractors, woodworkers, and other independent tradespeople. Their prices are becoming more competitive as well, ditching their old 36v line for Nuron.
I actually decided to get into Hilti 12v for the PM30-MG triple-plane green laser, back in 2019. The kit was the same price as Dewalt and every other competitor, but with the much better warranty service, and some free calibrations, which seemed like a nice bonus for a precision tool. The tool payed for itself on my first foundation levelling job, and of course hasn’t needed to be calibrated.
The kit came with the 12v 4Ah 21700 cell batteries mentioned in the article, which were the only such battery on the market in 2019, and still very rare. I decided to order an impact, SID 2 and installation driver SFE 2 to make use of the fantastic battery form factor. They have been solid little tools- not super powerful, but handy with runtime for days.
Those 12v drivers were made by Panasonic. It looks like a lot of the Nuron stuff is Chervon, with tear downs showing the OMT for example being an exact copy of the Starlock Flex. The cordless Hilti tools are on par with the other professional brands, for better or worse.
The real benefit of Hilti is 100% the professional-oriented sales experience, and the standout warranty and repair service, especially for wear and tear. I actually dropped one of my drivers off a roof, three stories down onto pavement. They had it picked up, repaired and back to me the next day for FREE. Nobody else is doing that for accidental damage, and certainly not for a $99 impact driver.
That said, Makita Canada is now offering free shipping to their repair facility, so I’m happy to have gone XGT for my main professional tools. Milwaukee has better local distribution, but you have to drop off and pickup your tools from a dealer yourself.
Randy
Pixels and Hz are the only two things that matter, and they won’t say either. No halfway decent thermal camera is cheap enough that battery cost or ecosystem or is even remotely relevant.
The service thing is a nice promise, but practically speaking irrelevant for thermal cameras.
Stuart
The thermal resolution is 256×192, and I assume the refresh rate is 9Hz.
Update – digging through their online user manual, it’s buried there; the refresh rate is indeed 9Hz.
Randy
Wow, no wonder they don’t advertise it.
eddiesky
A friend had been one of the early adopters of the FLIR IR tool when they were sold on Amazon with “enabled” features that only the highest cost FLIR had. And FLIR was aggressive after the sellers so, that ended. But I was able to borrow it, and I gotta say, Shame On you FLIR for crippling via software the same unit as your $$$$ models!
I found improperly installed Pella windows and took Lowes to task. But because they have so many tricks to avoid legal responsibility from “their sub contractor-installers”, and the sub filed chapter 11 or fired the employee (a father!) so they wouldn’t accept responsibility. The FLIR let me take picts of the gaps and temp issues that Pella immediately sent a tech out and confirmed “poorly installed windows”. Lowes should lose their ability to even sell Pella products.
It might not get used alot, but I think all should have an IR tool in their box (for automotive, HVAC, electrical panels, …) and another for food/cooking! I think the ranges are different as with welding, you have 1000F vs 350F in an oven.
Stuart
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-enhancements/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
Wayne R.
Anyone expecting resolution & refresh enhancements to be available “by subscription”?
Stuart
Actually… paid feature and enhancement unlocks tends to be standard in higher-end test equipment, and it’s supremely annoying.
Keysight is on my do-not-buy list because of how I felt they went bait-and-switch with their software packages. They convinced me to buy a bunch of pricy tools with the promise of streamlined software integration, and then put the software behind a paywall.
Wayne R.
JDSU (now Viavi) test sets come fully loaded for everything, but a lot of features need to be unlocked through license purchase, too. It makes sense, most of the high-end features aren’t used by the rank & file.
But so far, none of it’s subcription-based.
JR Ramos
This is exactly the type of interaction you can often expect from industrial suppliers as opposed to those more on the retail/small trades/DIY end of things. Excellent service and support all around. You do pay for it, but you do get it. Your experience as a solo home gamer or small business customer may vary a little but they’re the kind of company that will still try to take care of you.
The 2-year warranty is what’s impressive to me on an item like this, along with the extras included there. It’s easy to say something like “20 year” for defects…does speak a little to their confidence in the quality of their products and engineering but it’s also easy to shift things into expected wear and parts replacement. It’s really not that far off from when B&D introduced the increased warranty/service period with DeWalt – marketing enticement backed up by a promise for excellent service after the sale.
As Hilti products have become somewhat more accessible to the general public it’s interesting to see the general public’s perception/praise/complaints about them but in Hilti’s customer base of professional and industrial outfits they have always been highly regarded for tools that are dependable, durable, backed by quick service or replacement, and with the industrial products they need that go beyond typical needs…and high quality accessories and consumables that work. Exemplary evidence shown here in how they warranty and replace their masonry drill bits – unheard of but fantastic.
The biggest caveat is how much of a presence they have in your region. They have a pretty broad coverage footprint and reps that will travel far and service customers where distributors or service centers aren’t around, but that can still leave people in the lurch for a bit – no worse than most manufacturers and in that case you just plan ahead with spare tools and such to cover the lead time (not something that DIY and small contractors are usually willing to do, though).
We tried to get on with Hilti as a distributor many years ago and we just weren’t going to be able to get the volume they expected – did get some items and while there was a ton of interest and excitement, most of our customer base wasn’t going to spend the money (and since we were also unable to get on their service chain, the ones who would were drawn to another distributor who was full monty). Even as big as Home Depot is, I’d still see them as the same in that regard and most of Hilti’s base will be far elsewhere other than consumables.
Robert
Saw a Hilti store by chance in San Diego. Dropped in out of curiosity. Told the sales guy I was just curious, I wasn’t going to buy, that I wanted to see the new Nuron tools. He wasn’t fazed, he wanted to talk about them, slap batteries in them, let me run them. He laughed happily and said, “I’m going to make you a voluntary ambassador for Hilti.” Other customers came in, watched patiently for a while. I told the sales guy to take care of them. One fellow bought a big impact drill and a couple of batteries. Just a different vibe than a big box store.
Lincoln
From what I’ve heard the crazy low 9Hz refresh rate is not a technical limitation. It is an ITAR limitation so these don’t get used to track missiles.
Stuart
Yes. I’ve seen higher refresh rates on “export prohibitive” products.
JoshtheFurnaceGuy
About 10 years ago my father found a deal on some SEEK cameras and bought a bunch to sell to area fire departments. Before the order was fulfilled he received a phone call from our supplier about what he was doing with so many thermal cameras. (He assumed it was a homeland security type flag.)
Shortly after, SEEK released a red version of the same camera marketed towards firefighters.
Robert
In practicality, ITAR and EAR rules are very hard to figure out. I could see being very conservative on anything touching upon it.
Nate
I’d need a heck of a reason to spend that much on a thermal camera anymore. 256×192 should cost about $300, not almost $3000.
I just got an aliexpress multimeter with a 192×192 thermal imager (pretty sure it’s a defective 256×192 with the edge masked off), and a 20Hz refresh rate, for $148 shipped. It’s tiny, fits in my pocket, charges over USB-C, and saves 20 snapshots to its built-in memory. I just opened it up last night and installed a screen protector. The multimeter functions are mediocre; the E-field (NCV) sensor doesn’t work, but it’s not advertised either (though there is a button for it), but the display update rate is passable, and the Hz function maxes out just above 26MHz, which blew my mind. (I had to unlock a higher frequency range on my function generator to put it through its paces!)
Now, it has a narrower thermal range — -20°C to +550°C, but that’s good enough for everything I do except the occasional seized brake caliper, but for those I don’t really care how hot they are — if they max out the range, that’s all I need to know! It’s officially uncalibrated, but testing against a graphite blackbody with a type-K, it’s accurate within 2°C which seems pretty good to me. And storing 20 pictures and no videos is kind of ass, it has no SD card slot or anything, I think it’s just using the microcontroller’s built-in flash memory as a filesystem. And as a multimeter it’s dangerous to use on anything other than low voltage, because of the aforementioned USB-C charging port that’s just beneath the surface.
But for 15x cheaper, and charges from any old USB-C cable? Yeah, that’s a no-brainer. It’s just living in my backpack for the few weeks since I got it, and I use it for all sorts of things where I might not have thought to bring a big beast of a camera along. We’re truly in the era of thermal EDC.
The 20Hz refresh rate weirds me out, tbh. It’s no problem to import it, but if I had a defective unit and wanted to send it back, I wouldn’t want to do the export paperwork. And of course I can’t allow it to fall into the hands of a non-US person. But it sure is easier to use than the 9Hz crap.
Stuart
You’re saying that the imager you bought likely has a defective chip, isn’t calibrated, its multimeter function is “dangerous to use” except on low voltage, and the non-contact voltage detector “doesn’t work.”
Quality, safety, and reliability do not come cheap.
Nate
Every thermal imager has some defective pixels, there’s a defect map stored in eprom and applied to the image processing to mask the effects and apply per-pixel sensitivity adjustments, which are applied alongside the periodic FFC corrections. The Flir E4 hack thread on eevblog has a lot of details about extracting these maps from the camera’s filesystem. Interestingly enough, the more expensive cameras (E5…E8) didn’t always get the better chips. If Hilti gave you access to the eprom on their unit, you could see how many are there too.
The Hilti doesn’t even have a multimeter built in, for any voltage, nor does it advertise an NCV voltage function either, so that doesn’t work, okay, we’re still even. If you don’t want the meter functions in an aliexpress camera you can just get one without those too, same price.
So that leaves $2019 for the calibration certificate. I guess if that’s required, you pay whatever they ask.
No shade to tradespeople who pay for the quality, but I’m guessing a lot of them will end up owning a cheapie too, that goes in their pocket and answers 99% of questions, while the Hilti or Flir sits on the truck for the other 1% where calibration matters.
Mitherial
I’d love to see a thermal imager from the major tool brands (with my preferred battery platform) as opposed to a temperature spot-checker “gun”. I wonder what is keeping them from offering one? Milwaukee used to sell one, but it seems to be long out of production and is not in stock anywhere I checked.
Stuart
Interest and demand.
There’s also upkeep involved. Brands need to keep with the times regarding features, software, reporting, or similar, or they fall way behind thermal imaging-specialized competition.
Milwaukee seems to have backed out of the test and measurement space. The last time I asked about this, they seemed disinclined about reentering the category, but that could always change.
Nate
I owned one of those Milwaukee 2257 thermal imagers. It was not impressive even for the quite-reasonable-at-the-time $300 MSRP. The sensor claimed a reasonable NETD but the images were considerably noisier than other sensors with the same spec, and it had terrible ghosting artifacts when moving. For a handheld device, that’s a problem.
I did like that it used a full-size SD card slot, considerably easier to handle than the micros, and of course using M12 batteries meant there was no USB charging port to break, which is what killed my first FLIR E4.
If they bring it back, I hope they’ll pick a much better thermal core. It had a lot going for it aside from the poor image quality.
JR Ramos
If you still have the broken FLIR it’s probably worth sending off to Northridge Fix or someone compentent to replace that port. NF is a great outfit and they have a ton of ports on hand (because there are like 200 different port designs….). They built up some internet youtube fame with their board-level repairs of phones and laptops and all kinds of things…they guys are quite capable. In Cali. Good chance they’ve never done a FLIR before but probably worth shooting them an email.