Andrew sent in a tip a few days ago (thank you!), about lawsuits against Home Depot and Menards over dimensional lumber discrepancies.
When you buy a 4×4, you’re not getting a wood beam 4″ x 4″. A 2×4 isn’t 2″ x 4″, a 1×6 isn’t 1″ x 6″. This is something that most construction pros can recite in their sleep.
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And while the average consumer might not know it, it’s something most learn the first time they seek to build anything with dimensional lumber.
One source I read said the lawsuits are intended to be class action complaints.
From what I can tell, the lawsuits are complete BS and utterly baseless. The lawyers and their clients, who seem to have all “coincidentally” contacted the lawyers in a short period of time about the same exact thing, are likely just looking for a paycheck.
There’s nothing to be gained from the lawsuit. More wood? No, the nominal sizes are standard. Lower prices? No, the product prices are what they are for what you get.
How were the plaintiffs hurt by the lack of precise labeling?
While I would agree that clearer labeling could be helpful for first-time buyers of dimensional lumber, where would the limit be drawn? When you buy flowers, is there a written notice telling you that the flowers won’t last forever? No! And if there is, I never saw it, just like most people would ignore signs about the true nominal sizing of dimensional lumber.
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Hopefully it’s thrown out as being frivolous, otherwise we might be the ones stuck paying for the legal battle, in the form of higher prices.
While I try to play devil’s advocate when discussing things like this, I can’t in any way find any reasonable logic in support of the lawsuits.
Nathan
I read this yesterday off google assistant and I thought it was a joke at first. I can see where someone might not know – complete novice. But after you measured 4 or 5 and realized a common thread wouldn’t you make ask someone?
THis will most likely get tossed out – but side note. I don’t know about your home depot. But I know my local Lowes does put the nominal measurements in small print on the rack labels. I think my local home depot does but I don’t remember it catching my attention like it does at lowes.
Either way – crazy.
Adam
Lowes labels their lumber that way because they lost this same type of suit in California in 2014. Judge ordered 1.6 million in damages.
SS
Why aren’t they suing AFPA and AWC and ALSC? After all those are the ones who conspired to keep the lumber from us – the standards bearers!!
Kurt
I wonder if these individuals who brought the suit realize they have made themselves the laughing stock of an entire industry?
Lack
For saying the king is naked?
John S
No for saying that an established weights and measure system of an industry is collusion to defraud the customer of money.
Lack
As much as I like my meters, an inch is I think a pretty established unit of measure that there should be no second guessing.
John S
Wood measurement is a moving target. Even just taking it home its a different size than at the store. Everything effects it; heat, moisture, density, etc. Even if you put a measured “actual” size it be different at any variable time with uncontrollable conditions. It will be a different size moved from one part of the country to the other just acclimating to the environment change. Thats why the measurement it taken at the saw mill before its processed or has time to dry/fluctuate. It will never be a perfect measurement it will always be a nominal value (which it is) and which has been agreed upon by the industry as standard.
Eric
They’re lawyers, they don’t care if they’re getting laughed at. They just want to continue keeping most of the money from class action suits.
Lack
Pretty sure the legal costs are lower then the amount of time and effort wasted by one needing to go back to the drawing board when they realize an inch isn’t an inch when it’s sold as lumber.
Would you expect ten roses if you order a bouquet of a dozen?
Cubbie
Are you really inferring that an architect/engineer wouldn’t know the correct sizing of dimensional lumber?
Would you expect 12 donuts if you ordered a baker’s dozen?
Lack
Im inferring that ordering/reading a label for lumber shouldn’t require an architectural/engineering degree.
I’d expect a unit of measure to work as a unit of measure, not matter if I’m shopping for wood or donuts. But I’m on the metric system, so maybe some common sense and logic are taking the better of my judgment.
Cubbie
I won’t deny that the metric system is far more logical than the standard. However, calling dimensional lumber 2×4, 4×4, etc., has been in standard use for far longer than anyone who can bring a lawsuit. My dad taught me when I was a kid, long before I could get an architectural/engineering degree, which neither my dad nor I have.
If someone attempting a project doesn’t understand lumber sizing, unless perhaps they’re accustomed to metric as you are, they probably have no business picking up a saw and hammer.
Cubbie
*until they’ve learned to use them.
Andy from Workshopshed
That does sound like a variation of “we’ve always done it like that”.
You can learn to use a saw and hammer safely without learning the dimensional lumber system. Someone might work with reclaimed wood, manufactured boards, metal or plastic and hence never need to purchase lumber. Knowlege of a particular system has limited relationship to their skill in using tools.
However, most of the US system the numbers are just labels not values e.g. drill bits, wire sizes, pipe sizes. So it could be expected that people (depot customers) would be used to that. So given that I’d agree that the law suit is bogus.
jtr165
What’s being left out is that wood is a natural material, there are lots of different versions of it, and most importantly…it does different things in different types of climates.
The nominal value for dimensional lumber isn’t just an easy ‘name’, it’s literally what dimension was cut out of an actual log. I don’t think it’s a ‘we’ve always done it like that’ thing; more actual sizes, regardless of system used, are basically impossible.
Actual sizes of dimensional lumber will be all over the place depending on how wet it is, and what type of wood it is. That one reason for simple nominal sizes, but apparently in the continuously ‘touchy’ day and age of modern society, a more clear description of that fact…is needed.
When most logs are milled into dimensional lumber, they are rough cut at the nominal value…but most logs will rot internally well before they completely dry out, so are cut while still holding a fair amount of moisture.. After being cut to dimension, they dry more safely, but shrink considerably, and at different values depending on the location within the log the wood came from. They’re then rough planed/edged again, which removes inconsistencies enough to have something under nominal size wise, but pretty even, and stacked for sale.
They’ve got it down pretty well, most actual sizes of nominal 2×4’s are very close to 1.75″ x 3.5″ when dry on a rack in store. Leave that out in the rain for even an hour, it won’t be.
And as far as the engineering; I’m a mechanical engineer. No joke this is what my professor said for an intro to material science class: ‘All anyone needs to know is that concrete is hard to compress, steel is hard to stretch, and the size of the wood you bought is never the size of the wood when you use it’
Lack
So a 2×4″ log looses the same 1/2″ around that a 6×6″ does? That’s a pretty neat for a natural material with lots of version and climates…
Is there any science explaining why thy couldn’t start with I don’t know, maybe a 2 1/2 by 4 1/2 to make the end product actually fit the article name?
jtr165
^that was sort of my point. Go to an old family owned mill, pay half the price as something like Home Depot for a 2×4, but then see how consistent the boards are with actual measurements. The locations in question aren’t getting ‘local’ lumber from places using 100 year old saws to slice up logs.
Bigger wood manufacturers/mills have millions in equipment for streamlining processing, drying in kilns, etc. They’ve ‘fixed’ that problem that created nominal vs. actual to begin with, and these are the places selling to retailers like HD…but the standard was accepted before they did that, and would be even more of a mess if attempted to be adjusted now…So rather than making 2×4’s actual 2×4’s, they’ve just made 2×4’s close to 1.5″ x 3.5″ most of the time….and almost everyone is ok with that.
My message didn’t land, I guess, so my fault…Mine was…measure the wood before you buy it, measure the wood again before you use it…Not saying it’s a perfect solution, just saying it’s an accepted reality for both professionals and hobbyists that researched the single most basic aspect of working with this material.
Don
Sorry but I dont have to read the label to look at a pile of wood at Home Depot and know its a “2X4” or “2X6” of “4X4” and know that it isnt really that size. This has been around forever and anyone with any kind of knowledge of carpentry knows it. And if you dont, you shouldnt be doing the job and stay away from sharp instruments.
Now if you really want to go after someone with a lawsuit, how about the guys who sell giant bags of potato chips and they’re only half full!
I bought the family size bag and most of it is air. Litigation written all over it.
jtr165
‘contents may have settled since packaging’. They have it covered from lawyers like this; they sell you a mass, not a volume, then hit you with subliminal marketing by a larger bag haha.
I know you’re kidding, but seriously, pretty soon everything is going to have to be so specifically labeled it’s crazy.
mark
Wait…what about those petal count on those roses…or life in the vase….what if they only last 1 day vs 7?
BikerDad
No, because the number of people who have to “go back to the drawing board” and the scale of their projects is miniscule compared to the number of people who know their a***s from a hole in the ground.
This is predatory lawyering, and it should be smacked down HARD.
Lack
If the latter kind of people don’t care about the labels, the why the heck make it more difficult and counter intuitive in the first place? Trial by fire?
This is predatory marketing, and it should be smacked down HARD.
Andy from Workshopshed
>Trial by fire?
That might work. If a piece of wood 1 foot long takes 23 minutes to burn then it can be labelled as 2 by 4.
Stuart
This is NOT predatory marketing.
Home Depot isn’t making this up, 2×4, 4×4, 1×2, 1×6, these are long-established industry designations for industry-standard nominal dimensions.
It’s not the same as paying for a gallon of gas and getting 3/4 of a gallon. Or a pound of ground meat not being a pound of meat.
Or ordering a pint of beer and getting 12 ounces.
When you work with wood, there are certain things to learn. One of the first things is that a 2×4 isn’t a 2″ x 4″, and the next thing is that every time you make a cut you lose some wood equal to the kerf size.
What’s the goal of the lawsuit? To pay for damages? What damages? Home Depot and Menards aren’t making any extra money on these materials. Studs and other construction lumber often have just bar codes stapled in, if that much. So they’re going to put small notices at the front of an aisle, which most people will just ignore anyways?
There are lots of dirty retail practices that I could point out as being unfair to consumers. This is not one of them.
BonPacific
I agree with you. This isn’t predatory. But at the same time lets examine why the naming is how it is.
A 2×4 used to be 2″x4″ (my house framing for example). At some point the industry moved to smaller material, but neglected to change the names. So the only reason a 2×4 isn’t 2″x4″ is because of tradition. Should we enshrine that tradition if it is confusing to people who aren’t already in the know? I don’t think so.
Does anyone lose out if dimensional lumber must be labelled according to nominal size? Not really. The sizes will remain the same. The engineering will remain the same. The only things that change will be the name used for that product. 1.5 x 3.5 may not roll off the tongue, but there are probably other terms that could be used (standard stud, xl stud, xxl stud) and would be just as accurate as the current numbering system.
Compare buying rough lumber. It’s traditionally bought in 1/4″ units, so 4/4, 8/4, 12/4. But it’s (slowly) becoming more common to refer to the exact inch measurement, as there’s no real reason to use 1/4″ as a unit of measurement rather than a full inch. So you can buy 1″, 2″, and 3″ rough lumber.
A lawsuit isn’t the best way to fix this, but I see no reason it shouldn’t be made simpler and easier for first-timers to understand.
Stuart
Asking for change isn’t easy.
I remember learning the metric system, with some teachers saying it was important.
My brain defaults to metric for science, but imperial for engineering and everyday stuff.
When is that big push to the metric system coming? Probably not in my lifetime.
When my daughter was born, they pulled me over to take a picture of the scale, which I thought was weird, and it was in grams. I guess because grams give you greater resolution than pounds and ounces.
Changing from 2×4 to nominal descriptions? Not going to happen. Society is very resistant to change.
A half gallon of juice isn’t a half gallon anymore, neither are half gallons of ice cream. Ice cream is packaged as 1.75 quarts, or 1.5 quarts at times, and I think my last OJ container was 59 ounces.
fred
I agree that this is not the incredible shrinking “half-gallon” of ice cream that is now something like 1.5 quarts – labeled correctly – but still packaged so as you might not have noticed the transition.
I’m not sure what year in the US we moved over from full-dimension construction lumber to “dressed” dimensional lumber – maybe it was about the same time we moved away from balloon framing or the even earlier braced-framed houses.
So much construction practice is now built around use of dressed lumber that moving back to full dimension – rather than being a real benefit – might be more of a real nuisance – unless you work exclusively on really old houses. There might even be an argument made that selling an unwary consumer a true 2×4 would cause them harm since it would have to be dressed to fit in with what is typically in the wall.
Shakespeare suggested a possible solution to this sort of lawsuit.
Lack
‘These are long-established industry designations for industry-standard nominal dimensions.’
Why does it work only for lumber? It seems to me like it’s just as applicable to lumber as it is to gas, beer or meat. Only difference is those industries haven’t yet established that tradition. But wouldn’t you be at least a bit pissed if they did (even though that doesn’t have much effect on the pricing either)?
jtr165
I’m just trying to keep up…
Are you saying that a similar situation doesn’t apply to meat? Wasn’t McDonald’s in a huge mess like this with their ‘quarter pounder’, because the cooked patty wasn’t 1/4 of a pound? So they had to add the disclaimer ‘before cooking’ or w/e.
Maybe i’m not understanding Lack’s points so far…but a common issue with both of these ‘materials’ is water…Wood dries, and shrinks…meat cooks, loses water, and shrinks/becomes lighter…
When you buy 1 pound of beef, chicken, or pork at a store…the weight is going to be very different when you actually ‘use’ it. The actual weight depends on what kind of cut it is, how you cook it, etc. That could in no way be more similar to what this debate is about with wood.
Lack
Probably a McD burger is closer to wood then actual meat so yeah, I guess it’s related ;-).
The pound of beef may and up smaller then a label AFTER I’m done with it. The dimensional lumber is smaller before I get my dirty paws on it, that’s a pretty big difference in my book.
BonPacific
Doesn’t the shrinking gallon make the point here though? Nothing on the label of my orange juice says gallon. It says Orange Juice, the brand, and in small letters down the side it gives the actual volume. I don’t care about the packaging, but if they labelled 52 oz as a gallon you can get they’d get sued.
Jerry
You mentioned damages. I would bet that if they bought a 2X4 that actually measured a full 2 inches by 4 inches, they would be more ‘damaged’ because it wouldn’t be the same width or thickness as all the other studs in their wall, and would sue for all the extra work they had to go through to plane it down to match the other boards. If I were called as a witness to the case, I would say they are actually benefitting by the lumber being ‘undersized’ because the dimensions match the rest of their house and doesn’t require planing to fit.
David Swearingen
How is this not predatory marketing, Stuart? How is it not the same as paying for a gallon of gas and getting only 1/2 or 3/4 of a gallon? A gallon of gas starts out as 2 gallons of crude oil. If the lumber producers can call a slim stick a 2×4 because that’s how big it started out before it was processed, then why can’t a gas station call 1/2 gallon of gas a full gallon because that’s what it was before it was refined?
Pinaud
Predatory marketing?
Get serious!
firefly
This has been an industry standard for years! Does it make sense? Maybe to some, not to me! Perhaps it’s because it’s much easier to settle on the measurement for the lumber when it’s wet because different type of lumbers might shrink differently. That’s the only reason that I can think of. Regardless this is an accepted engineering practice. So it make no sense to file a lawsuit against a retailer.
As far as standard, even if it make no sense it’s very difficult and costly to change once it has become accepted. The qwerty keyboard that we use today have a less than ideal layout. Yet qwerty layout are still the most popular…
Tyler
I’m buying a dozen roses. A dozen is a specific quantity. When I look at the lumber rack or a website I see 2×4 not a 2″x4″. Very often you will see 2x4x8′, I don’t ever recall seeing 2″x4″x8′. A 2×4 should be considered as nomenclature for a piece of lumber that started out as the specified numbers prior to milling, drying, transport and natural wood movement. It may be semantics, but so is a lawsuit that goes against an industry standard (not just retailers) that’s been around for many decades.
At what point do we consider a 2×4 to be in violation of what some infer to mean they are getting an exact two inch by four inch piece of wood? Let’s assume that suddenly the industry starts making dimensional lumber exact to the specified number. Exactly two inches by four inches as it leaves the mill yard after milling and kiln drying. Then as the lumber travels it soaks up some water in a few rain storms and then arrives in a climate where the natural humidity is dryer than the area of the mill. Suddenly it’s an eighth to quarter under because it shrunk as it dried and acclimated to the ambient humidity of it’s new home. Should the reseller be at fault? I would hope not. We are talking about an organic medium that is prone to movement.
RC WARD
Just more proof the world is going to hell in a hand basket. A law suit that helps no one except Lawyers, what a shock huh?
RX9
It’s just like Gene Simmons trying to trademark the devil horn hand sign. This type of rent-seeking behavior is precisely what happens when you live in a low-trust society. People try to game the system by exploiting legal loopholes for profit. Personally, I think the idea of intellectual property as it currently exists is rather flawed, as it works more to facilitate and enforce monopolies rather than to protect the creators of original ideas.
Hopefully, this suit will get laughed out of court. If behavior like this isn’t curbed, the slide will continue until the breaking point.
Where is that breaking point? Well, what people who engage in this kind of behavior never seem to grasp is that they are operating on the continual good will and trust of the productive classes in society. When the graft gets big enough to cause real misery for the productive and law abiding, it will cause an irrevocable breakdown in the very trust that has allowed the rent-seekers to thrive.
Jeff @ Tool Box Buzz
So why just Home Depot and Menards? Because Lowes was sued for it a couple years ago and actually lost. The current lawsuit is low hanging fruit for some gutter lawyer.
http://www.hbsdealer.com/article/lowes-ordered-pay-2×4-settlement
At my local Menards, units isn’t listed in the label except for length. I.e.- 2x4x8′. In my mind a case could easily be made that 2×4 is its product name and the product is available in various configurations (6′, 8′, 10′, etc.).
Stuart
I was looking into that lawsuit and settlement, and it’s not quite directly relevant. This Remodeling post was the best of a couple that contradict reporting on some other sites:
http://www.remodeling.hw.net/business/regulations/lowes-2×4-case-documents-add-to-allegations-about-undersized-lumber_o
It was more about non-compliance of products, and non-wood products that were improperly given dimensional descriptions.
Cubbie
If you don’t know the sizing of dimensional lumber, you probably shouldn’t be trying to build whatever your building.
Wait until they find out that a hammer marked 19 oz is actually the head weight, not the total.
Stuart
That’s unfair to say.
What if someone wants to build a bookshelf? Hang some shelves and wants a ledge? A RC hobbyist wants to build a workbench?
Lack
They should ‘know their a***s from a hole in the ground’ I guess if you follow the previous comments.
Nate
So you can’t take everything so literal.
A man buys a stick of deodorant, the instructions say to remove cap and push up bottom. It hurts to walk but when he farts the room smells really fresh!
doug in GA
all smiles!!! very good!!!
Cubbie
Fair enough. I shouldn’t discourage someone from new projects.
Would it better to say if you don’t know lumber sizing, you’d best educate yourself not only in that but in the tools required and how to use them? Because chances are good that, if you don’t understand sizing, your just getting started in wood projects and don’t have to tools or skills necessary for it.
BonPacific
But why make it intentionally harder for someone to learn those skills? It’s a very strange argument. I’ve seen it here in the comments and in plenty of other places.
“I learned it the hard way, so you need to learn it the hard way.”
I’m not supporting a lawsuit here, but who benefits from making lumber sizing more confusing than it has to be?
Stuart
But whose place is to make it easier?
Home Depot and Menards? For all they know, someone buying a 2×4 knows what it is and why they want or need it, and are aware of the sizing.
When you buy a banana at the supermarket, is there a sign saying not to eat the skin? But you eat the skin of an apple…
Is there a sign next to the “dressing” oils saying they’ll smoke up too quickly if used in certain cooking techniques?
The “cooking onions” – is it okay to eat them raw in a salad or salsa?
Is there a sign near the jalapenos saying not to cut them and rub your eyes?
With a lot of types of products, it’s expected that the buyer knows what they’re buying.
firefly
I don’t think it’s intentional. I am sure somebody that has been in the lumber business for a long time could explain the reason why.
I personally don’t agree with the sizing either. However I do think that changing it can be very difficult. First as I understand it lumber are processing when it’s wet. Different lumber will shrink differently. So by going strictly by actual dimension that mean lumber will have to be processed once it’s dry. I don’t know if that’s feasible. Again as I understand it the dimension are rough dimension.
For anyone in the trade I think this would have become second nature to them. For anyone else like me, sure as heck it’s confusing. However I can’t think of a case that the effect of nominal dimension would screw up my project. In short if I am building anything that’s significant I would enlist the help of a professional. The change would actually confuse a lot of people who are already in the trade. A lot of thing would need to be changed such as textbox, engineering software, labeling…. In short this old standard will just keep on lingering around for a very long time because people will need to to cross reference to the old one. So the cost to support this change is not trivial.
In short I don’t agree with the standard. I do find it confusing. However I don’t see an easy way to change it. In fact I see the cost to change it far out weight the benefit.
BonPacific
Except that Home Depot actually lists units when referring to a 2×4. From their website: “2 in. x 4 in. x 96 in. Premium Kiln-Dried Whitewood Stud”
If the supermarket labelled something as a “1lb Onion”, and it only weighed half a pound, would you defend them?
firefly
We are going in circle here. First homedepot didn’t come up with that idea, it’s widely know among people in the trade. I would get mad if I go to the homedepot and asked for a 2×4 and ended up with something else different than if I was going to Lowes or any other place that sell lumber. In this case when my structure engineering requested a 2×4. It’s the same 2×4 that’s sold at Home Depot, Lowes or any other place. So yes I would defend them regardless if it was lumber or onion.
Andy from Workshopshed
How about labelling the wood using metric dimensions then the whole world will be able to understand what size they are.
You could then buy 2400 x 38 x 89mm.
Chris
Welcome to the rest of the world…
Robert
When you graduate a bunch of lawyers and they find out how hard it is to make a living lawyering they typically find themselves either in personal injury or class action suits type cases.
I was in a small accident rear bumper to rear bumper, parking lot style years ago. About 5 months later I get a registered letter from some bay area law firm representing his “client” for some personal injuries. My insurance company paid them off to the tune of $3000. There was no police report so I’m guessing this person found a firm to get some easy cash. Probably paid him $800 and kept the $2,200 all for the price of a stamp or two.
My insurance guy told me it’s easier to just pay them off would cost more to fight it.
Reisen
My wife was driving two years ago (with our young daughter in her carseat in the backseat), and had two sisters box her in (one in front, one behind her), then the front car slammed on her brakes.
Fortunately, my wife’s car is light (for an SUV), has great brakes, and she was paying attention, so she stopped in time, about 3 inches short of the car in front of her’s bumper.
Of course both women immediately got out of their vehicles, and the one in front started to complain about her neck, while the one in back claimed she witnessed my wife’s vehicle rear end her sister.
My wife called me in a panic, and I told her to immediately start taking pictures of anything and everything, including every inch of all three cars. We got super lucky that the car in front was a brand new Honda (likely bought through proceeds from another scam), and didn’t have so much as a scratch on it, anywhere. Neither did our vehicle’s front bumper.
The woman called the cops, then left in an ambulance. Sure enough, we were sued, but referred the case to our insurance company’s fraud department, and with our statements and the photos, they never paid a dime. I was told without the pictures, they likely would have paid out something to make it go away.
Rock Hound
I always assumed it was like getting a burger. A McDonald’s quarter pounder is 1/4 pound of pre-cook weight beef and weighs less on the bun. Maybe I should be suing over that!
In the same vein as above, I just thought it was like so: The lumber mill cuts it to size (ex: 2×4), then it still has to dry and the boards shrinks in the process, then they plane it to be uniform for all of the different dry shrinkage between boards.
The only thing that is really annoying is that I have to buy the undersized router bits.
John S
Thats a very good point. Weight of beef is “precooked” weight. I wonder maybe if I could conflate that to pre-evaporated gasoline volume 😉
fred
I recall eating in a steakhouse in Montana many years ago – which had the reputation for having over the top portions. They advertised a 28oz Porterhouse – Eastern Beef steak as something like their king-sized entrée. There was a little asterisk that said “approximate weight cooked”. We inquired about the “eastern beef” bit – and were told that they wanted to convey that their beef came off a feed lot in Nebraska or somewhere east of Montana and it was not range cattle. I went with a smaller filet – but some of the guys who ordered the Porterhouse were greeted with a slab of meat that probably started out at well over 2 pounds.
John S
Im gong to sue Kit Kat for taking chocolate away for making the letters imprint on the bar. They’re costing me chocolate value!
Lynn Daczyk
I helped build 2 houses, 1 in the 70s, another in 1980. I built a deck in 1994. 2/4s were consistently 1.5/3.5″. Lengths were as stated. My 1950 home, they’re more generous. I’ve bought quite a bit of lumber from banded lots. All the same measurements or they wouldn’t band in transportable
dimensions. Applying sheet rock, etc would be a major problem. I don’t know about a lawsuit, but today I discovered Menards new-to-me 2/4 thickness is a big problem. I need to replace 12 2/6 random decking boards. Can’t mix and match here or I won’t have a level surface. If I can’t find the long-held standard of 1.5/3.5, I’ll have to replace the whole deck surface. Time and money, Standardization is a friend to architects, builders, owners. Yes, that goes for canned, packaged food sizes, toilet paper, autos, Humvees…
ktash
This was my thought, too. A woodworker usually buys hardwood lumber that is rough, or unmilled. If you bought a 4×4 piece of cherry, for instance, you’d know that it would end up smaller after you put it through the milling process in your shop, and it has usually been kiln-dried.
Perhaps these vendors like HD and Menards should just sell green, rough 2x4s and let everyone kiln dry them, joint them, them, plane them parallel, etc. Pretty difficult with a 12′ 2×4. Of course, building would proceed much more slowly and be more costly. Then maybe contractors could sue the lawyers who caused so much unemployment. 😉
But the makers of jointers, planers, etc would be happy. Or we could even go back to using saws and handplanes on the rough 2x4s after drying them. That would help create a lot of apprentice jobs.
What nonsense!
fred
They might also start selling full dimension 8/4 and other lumber by the board foot. Of course that’s a bit like what they do – but all the calculations and pricing is built into the price of the stick for framing lumber and the price per foot for most of the other lumber they sell.
Lack
Pretty sure everyone has to joint and plane the dimensional wood that you get a hardware store already – if they expect either of those qualities that is.
firefly
Those people and their lawyers deserve to be hung dry just like in the olden days. At the very least once a frivolous suit got throw out that should come along with a hefty fine. That would make people think twice about filing frivolous lawsuit like this.
Personally I prefer the hung method in those cases…
Jim Felt
Yes. And out friend “lack” kinda is.
Bigly. ;-)~
And two of my very best friends are plaintiffs attorneys. They’d never touch this pile of concept poo. Never.
David Swearingen
A gallon of gasoline starts out as 2 gallons of crude oil. All the people defending selling lumber by the size it started out as, would holler bloody murder if a gas station only gave them 1/2 gallon for each gallon they paid for.
David Swearingen
Actually, back in the olden days, people who tried to sell an obviously undersized wooden plank as a “2 x 4 ” are the ones who would have been strung up. That’s why a 2×4 really was 2×4 up until modern times. Companies used to think twice about defrauding their customers; now it has become standard business practice, and half the commenters on here believe it’s okay since it’s standard business practice.
Charles
Why not just post an informational sign somewhere in the lumber department that shows the nominal dimensions and the actual dimensions? This would help eliminate confusion among novices and also allow them to prevent further frivolous litigation. Of course, not everyone would read the sign, but that’s on them.
Lack
There usually is. But at least as far as HD.com goes not in the most obvious point – article name.
Kevin
I remember it like this….
You are buying a 2X4 S4S, which means a piece of lumber, which the manufacturer has Surfaced 4 Sides for your convenience. This also makes it smaller. If you don’t want it smaller, don’t get S4S.
John S
If its a framing stud its even smaller because they bevel the edge so technically I’m getting even less wood 😉
James
This is exactly it. When the change was made from undressed to dressed dimensional lumber, the nominal names did not change with it. Years ago buying a 2×4 meant you were getting a 2″ x 4″ piece of rough lumber. Now they dress it and remove some material but still call it a 2×4.
Do I think this lawsuit is stupid? Yes. Do I think the plaintiffs are stupid for bringing it up? No.
I can go buy rough sawn lumber and a 2×4 is a 2×4. When I buy dimensional lumber a 2×4 is not 2×4. I would like to see the industry change.
Robert W
Sounds to me like a DIY’er couldn’t find a safe space fast enough when a big box employee laughed at them. Industry standard rules here, and every box store with lumber I’ve been to displays the dimensions on the rack or on the lumber, or both. A 2×4 on the job site will always be a 2×4 and tradefolks will laugh their butts off if anyone tries to make them call it anything different.
Charles
It is like the 1/4 pound burger which was 1/4 pound whilst raw and before cooking. Finished lumber products like that 2X4 were actual 2X4s whilst raw and before finishing. The nominal measurements are a board’s size before it has been planed smooth (surfaced) (“cooked like the burger” if you will) on all 4 sides. There is a national standard for this. It is the “American Softwood Lumber Standard”. The current version is Voluntary Product Standard PS 20-15, April 2015.
John S
The 2×4/4×4 etc is an established weights and measurement system by the industry. Are not these measurements dictated by some government body like the National Institute of Standards and Technology? Just like weight of fruit, weight of beef (pre-cooked weight), gallons of gas etc. These are industry standards. Not some collusion for defrauding the american public. I get the confusion (i figured it out at 8 years old) but even if they put 2 actual inches by 4 actual inches they’ll still be wrong due to moisture, bending, etc thats why that established measurement (at the saw mill before drying etc) is the measurement. Sometimes in the time I get lumber from Homedepot to my house its changed size just from moisture exposure in a short time.
Steve
Ridiculous. I hope they throw it out as a frivolous law suit…and I hope the few individuals driving this bus end up with a lot of legal fees.
Mark
I suspect that Lack is short for Lawyer-lackey.
Stuart
Come on, that’s not called for.
Differing opinions are always welcome.
Lack
Nope. It’s short for a ‘lacking better argument I’ll go personal’.
Don
I think its pretty simple. If you dont know what dimensional lumber means, you arent qualified to be buying it and doing the job you wanted to do. And you sure as heck shouldnt be using power tools. I mean, I learned this stuff as a kid doing odd jobs with my father.
Ann
I’m well aware of the size standards myself, but it is true that an increasing amount of people don’t have the opportunity to have “learned this stuff as a kid doing odd jobs with my father” – family lives in an apartment with no good place to do that kind of stuff, or no father present for whatever reason, or father doesn’t know and do this kind of stuff himself, or father doesn’t have time because he’s working 3 jobs, etc…
Don
There is potentially money to made off this by writing an app that explains industry standard wood sizing. Then if the purchaser doesn’t know their smartphone will. You no longer learn from experience – just ask Siri.
John
Next up for the lawyers is pipe sizes.
DRT
LOL, wait till they put a tape measure to NPT threads. When you cook those hamburgers, they get bigger !
FishStick
Oh oh me next! A 16 penny nail is no where near the stated length if I stack pennies up. I wonder how much I can get now? Also I’m confused by wire sizes since my 12 ga shotgun is nowhere near the same size as 12 ga wire.
After final outcome – would you like a pre 2018 lumber dimension or post 2018 model? The pre 2018 needs to be special ordered from the factory and it’ll take 6-8 weeks to come in and cost extra for setup.
If you’re buying lumber to remodel and can’t even figure out the dimensions there’s no way you should be touching framing or anything else along the lines. But I’m betting these people don’t even do their own work, they just found an easy mark for a bottom feeding lawyer needing to justify their degree and now we all get to pay the price. If anything sue all of the manufacturers for the horrid quality of the lumber that is on the shelf.
Charles
Great, everything is about to get more expensive and the only ones making any money are the lawyers.
Ridiculous.
Waste of time.
Bill
While I agree with most of the comments here regarding the frivolity of this lawsuit, it is easy to sympathize with the ever more common newbie DIYer walking into their local HD or Lowe’s for the first time. After all HD and Lowe’s were founded in large part to service this customer. Yet at the same time, these retailers had to conform to well establish industry standards that were not exactly crying out for reform.
So let’s say that as that newbie DIYer, I decide to take on a small bathroom remodel. In this remodel I’m going to move a non-loadbearing wall, go from a single sink vanity to a double sink, move the commode, add some lighting and redo the shower. Armed with my new plans and a list of materials I walk into HD only to find that a 2×4 isn’t, 1/2″ pipe isn’t, but 1/2″ tubing is. Now I walk over to electrical and discover that numerically larger 14 awg is really smaller than 12 awg. Doing my remodel now requires an even steeper learning curve than I originally anticipated.
Most industries have some unique standards and terminology that is usually rooted in history and often difficult and costly to change. The first that comes to mind is the failed American conversion to the metric system in the 1970s. Although it looks like we will eventually get there, thankfully, it was actually industry that proved the most unwilling to change, due to cost. While England has been more successful at making the change it will be interesting to see what the impact of Brexit will have on this.
Charles
I agree with your sentiments. While some people are fortunate enough to have basic trade knowledge passed down to them from their father/brother/older family member, not everyone is in the same boat.
And while I would hope that someone without the requisite knowledge that is interested in building something would conduct research beforehand and figure things out, we all know that isn’t the case. Does this mean that industry standards should be changed and that these people be catered to? No. But I do feel some sympathy for someone who wants to make something with their hands that never had guidance in their lives doing so and may not even know what are the best resources to learn from.
Again, I think if stores put up some signage/labeling next to the prices in their lumber departments, this would probably alleviate a lot of “rookie” mistakes, and it’s not going to change anything for the people that are already in the know.
I wonder if this suit was really brought forth by someone who was seriously upset, or if it was made by someone just looking for a technicality to try and make some easy money.
firefly
I was one of those guy that had no idea that a 2×4 is not really a 2″x4″. I don’t think that any sympathy are needed here. Even though it can be a tad annoying I failed to see how a 2×4 would truly cause me a significant problem.
Let say that if I follow a simple DIY guide somewhere, the same 2×4 in the guide is the same one that I would get at the Home Depot or Lowes or any other lumberyard. So in fact having an extra label would cause even more confusion in my opinion. Having an extra labels also cause the display to be more clutter making it harder to find what I need. In short, having an extra label solve some problem while bring in others. It’s the kind of solution that should never be introduced in the first place… The simple solution already exist, I need to learn the freaking trade before I can take on it. It’s a simple one time learning cost.
If I didn’t follow any guide and this is my first ever project. Then if the project is of any significant then yes I am the idiot for taking on a bigger challenge than I can handle. Everyone need to learn how to walk before they can run… If someone think they are the exception to the rule then expect that everyone else will laugh hard when they are missing a few front teeth…
The only time that I would be seriously upset is when I go to Lowes to asked for a 2×4 and ended up with something different than if I was going to a lumberyard. As long as everyone is following the same standard, I failed to see how anyone could be upset at a retailer for it.
Idkyou
Wait until these lawyers realize there is a vacuum company that advertises “a v6 digital motor for zero carbon emissions”. Or the industry standard to advertise 6hp canister vacs that operate on 110v and 15 amp circuit breakers.
John S
Unfortunately they already did with lawnmowers / ride arounds that now are described in “CC” size as if thats supposed to mean anything to me. You’ll notice at the stores now. 140cc means nothing to me in terms of power 🙁
McGryphon
That’s because 140cc MEANS nothing in power. It just denotes cylinder volume.
You can make a 140cc engine that screams past 15bhp at ridiculous revs, you can make one that barely gets 4bhp before transmission and sounds like a pygmy tractor.
mattd
a few years back i think there was a lawsuit about their sheet goods. that’s why, if you notice, you cannot buy 1/2″ plywood anymore. it is all 15/32. as dumb as this is, it does not surprise me. also these may be the same people that forced this million plus dollar settlement from lowes for the same thing 3 years ago http://www.hbsdealer.com/article/lowes-ordered-pay-2×4-settlement.
Stuart
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/home-depot-menards-sued-over-how-dimensional-lumber-is-advertised/#comment-1095086%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
I’ve been looking more into the Lowe’s case, and while details still aren’t clear, it doesn’t appear to be the same as what’s going on now with HD and Menards.
John McLeod
I’m surprised by how many commenters seem to think the wood shrank, or some other reason for this. 2X4s are not that size because you are buying lumber that has been surfaced on all four sides. A rough-sawn 2X4 is pretty close to 2X4 but the surface is not smooth and people don’t want that. This is why the lumber companies began running the boards through planers at the factory. Now all the boards are smooth and a uniform size.
Have none of these people ever seen a rough-sawn board?
John S
But the shrinkage is still a factor as well as the post processing you’re talking about. Even 3.5 inches by 1.5 inches isn’t accurate either even within a stack. I’ve planed boards and even later in the week in the same garage its changed if it rained outside etc. This is why I would imagine the industry agreed that the nomenclature 2×4 is the measurement at the mill bc its likely the only established consistency they can control and even then its still a nominal value with accepted tolerances.
Emma
There are all sorts of regulations already on sizing.
http://awc.org/news/weights-measures
Scott K
I too thought this was a joke. I learned this the first time I bought lumber from HD. On their website (not new) they list the “actual” size if you expand the specifications tab.
Chuck
It is a little long – but this gives a good history of board measurements.
https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/miscpub_6409.pdf
David Swearingen
It’s a little long because it’s thorough. There’s a wealth of information there. Lumber has been getting smaller and smaller for the past two centuries. My first house was built with real 2x4s, which had a cross section of 8 square inches of wood. Today’s 2x4s have a cross section of only 5.25″ . It’s no wonder building don’t hold up like they used to. And the paper you cited shows that the reason today’s lumber has only a little more than half the wood it should, is because the lumber producers have made a concerted effort to shrink the dimensions.
I particularly enjoyed the story “Where is the Stopping Point? How Scant Should Lumber Be?” and its follow-up, “Consumer Interest of Production Advantage?” As they quote,
“Year by year we watch the grades and standards of lumber progressively debased by the manufacturers…We have seen the width of lumber dropped…Every day we see an increasing number of sub-standard items being pushed into the market. The next step from 3/4″ board of course will be 11/16″. It seems to me that those of us who are at the grass roots level, namely the retailers, should make a real effort to put the brakes on this downhill trend.”
Joe
What about Trim? 1×8,,1×5,1×6,1×4,1×3,1×10,1×12 ???? Do they sue over that inaccuracy? I mean a 1×8 azek is actually 3/4 x 7 1/4″ …. pressure treated lumber ? Ive been framing thirty years ,cmon really ? Do I sue if they label a 2×4 as 1 1/2″x 3 1/2″ and my 2×4 is 3 9/16 x 1 7/16 ? ….
The yeti
I live in a logging region . Timber . Not sure where the lawsuit is gonna be . I imagine new York or California. Some real liberal hot bed . Can’t see anyone from a working class background supporting this .
I liked a couple of the comments . Fred I believe is absolutely rite . If they went to true dimensions now . It would be a nightmare .
Another guy said 2×4 is just the trade name or product name . I think that is the logical defence.
I am curios . Do a lot of people buy lumber at home depot . The wood there is all twisted up . Gotta go to real lumber yard here to get straight nice wood . I think you Americans might get all our good lumber I’m not sure where it goes
Jim Felt
I and most all of my DIY and professional trades friends try to support speciality lumber vendors. And for that matter any specialty vendors. Though clearly many many people including lower level pros simply go to the big box outlets and get what they pay for. Especially “service”.
As for straight lumber… even in Oregon and Washington where I work ya gotta look carefully and have a good returns policy in place with your vendors.
The yeti
Ya I’m in British Columbia . The wood at home depot here looks like hockey sticks . Have fun building with that stuff. The lumber yards are significantly better . Still get some wonky wood now and again . I don’t buy a lot of wood . If I did I wouldn’t go to a big box store for it . I think price wise it is competitive but the quality isn’t there . Adds a lot to a job to crown ad cut every board
Ann
Class-action lawsuits only need one law firm and some modest number of named plaintiffs to start, it’s not like everyone in the state gets to vote on it. And there are ‘liberals’ and ‘working-class’ people in every state – and some people are actually both at the same time.
A W
I buy wood from both Lowe’s and Home Depot, and as a beginner, I made a mistake thinking everything was planed a quarter inch off each side. That was my mistake, made because I failed to read the approximate actual dimensions clearly labeled underneath the nominal dimensions of some 1 x 10s.
This meant I had to figure out how to edge route my trim pieces to make the 9.25″ piece of wood cover a 9.5″ gap in a doorway, which was a rewarding learning experience.
But it was my mistake. And, yes, it took me some extra time to figure out how I was going to fix it (buy a 1 x 12, or adjust the trim) but that’s part of the experience of doing my own remodels.
Part of the problem with these frivolous lawsuits is that there is no risk to me as a consumer for launching them. In countries such as England, if I tried to sue Home Depot for my stupidity and lost, I would be required to pay their legal defense bill, which makes people think twice about whether this lawsuit is frivolous or not.
firefly
^^ Exactly. I was one of those guy that had no idea about the nominal vs actual lumber dimension. I tried to build a deck for my shed and it certainly wasn’t pretty.
I taken on the project expecting it to be easy. It wasn’t because of my lack of knowledge and skills. I didn’t get mad in fact I found the experience to be very rewarding. I didn’t panic no worries because prior to taken on the project I knew this is non critical. That mean even if thing didn’t workout perfectly it wouldn’t have been disastrous.
I still have that shed. It probably took more lumber than it should. Part of the deck squeak a little. Nonetheless it was great learning experience…
Kevin
There are many standards that we use for historical reasons. If we could change them AND there would be a benefit that justifies the cost we likely would. I am typing this on a QWERTY key board. There are other layouts that are more efficient today but the cost of conversion (learning how to type again) is not worth it. Why do musical scales start with C? Would it not be easier to start with A? Plumbers know that nominal pipe sizes are not actual sizes. A 1-1/2″ copper drain pipe is not the same OD as ABC or PVC. Type K, L & M copper tube all have different inside diameters.
At one time a 2×4 was actually 2″x4″. The 1″ and 2″ lumber my father had cut for use on the farm was this actual size. Likely over time it was realized a stud that is not a full 2″ thick was still strong enough to build a house. I have measured studs that were 2″, 1-3/4″, 1-5/8″ and now 1-1/2″. It seems to be a progression to save material, maximizing the use of trees and of course profits. It is just industry convention or standard that we still say 2×4.
After this lawsuit the lawyers can move on to plumbing or keyboard lawsuits. The ‘damages’ with keyboards is lost productivity. Maybe they can sue the dictionary companies for ‘damages’ from the confusion of different spellings in neighbo(u)ring countries. I am sure some of you could think of some colo(u)rful words to describe such a lawsuit. What about the damages caused by recording ambiguous dates. 6/12/2017 could be June 12, 2017 or December 6, 2017. This can actually cause real problems for time sensitive things like warranties. Could you imagine a world without lawyers? There is a ‘Simpsons’ episode that briefly does.
Andy
Hey. Everyone wants to support the American economy. Lawyers are one of the best things we produce here. Let them work. Manufacturing is a developing nation’s game. Let’s build our services.
Coach James
Almost every time a story dealing with, what many consider, a frivolous lawsuit comes up, people slam lawyers as the problem. I’m not a lawyer, so I have no personal offense at this. The problem, though, is not the lawyers. Lawyers file these type of lawsuits because juries have made the probability of the plaintiffs winning, high enough to make these lawsuits worth filing.
JoeM
I’m sorry… this has to be said, as a Canadian and fellow Metric user… Lack is off is rocker on this issue. Same with the rest of you trying to justify wood shrinkage as the responsibility of the retailer to notify you of its existence.
Listen… 2″ thick wood, wet or dry, is going to act like 2″ of wood when you use it. End of story. If it has lost 0.3 Cm, AKA 30 mm due to climate, humidity, and transport… The only thing responsible for the change in size is the atmosphere and how long it took to get from the tree, to your grubby little hands. You going to sue a TREE? How about a TRUCK? You want them to carry every last log in a climate-controlled Humidor, and ship it to you that way? Good luck with that. Within 24 hours of it being OUT of that Humidor, cut by your saw, which has a Kurf greater than Zero, sanded smooth by your sand paper, which often removes a good mm off any given project, glued with wood glue, drilled and screwed together… All the wood used will have reverted to what it is in the stores NOW. Only the one who caused all that shrinkage, and flexion, and weight/density change is YOU. Gonna sue YOURSELF for using wood that is 0.005% off its measurements? That the 2X4 you cut into the legs of the table are now 1.995″X3.987″, and slightly curved outward from end to end so the end you ever-so-carefully cut flat is actually 0.001mm higher on one edge than the opposite one, you going to blame the Wood for being Wood, or are you going to learn that that’s what Wood DOES before trying to build the table?
Why do you think Carpentry is a trade with such a wide range of Apprenticeship programs? Situations like this are why. So my 2X4 isn’t 4 CM, it’s 3.8. The difference is so minute, your project CAN’T be affected by the difference. Wooden Doors, completely installed, expand and shrink throughout the year. They Stick in some seasons, and are loose in the others. That’s WOOD. If you need the project to be THAT precise, THAT permanently… You’re not using Wood. Period.
I’m a Metric guy. Through and through. I HATE the fractions of Imperial. Whenever I’ve seen 2X4, or any other measurement in wood, I’ve totally ignored it. Why? Because it’s NEVER going to be 2X4 by the time I’m done with it. 2X4, 4X4, 2X6, WHATEVER… is just a SOURCE label. When you’re done with it, you only USED a 2X4. The same way you USED a Cup of Sugar while baking, but BOUGHT a 2 Kilogram Bag. Even in those bags, a LOT can happen, and not every bag has the same number of tiny, tiny grains of the stuff in it. Same with Wood. From Forest to Workbench, everything from the day of the week it was cut, to how many bathroom breaks the truck delivering it to the retailer stopped for, will affect the size of the natural product. It’s still a 2X4. When you use it, it will act EXACTLY like a 2X4. After you’ve done all you needed to do, you BOUGHT a 2X4, and after reducing its weight using your drill, saw, and screwdriver, changing its density with varnish, glue, and the environment of your house… Your wood project is STILL going to behave like it’s made of Wood. It WILL Warp. It WILL Shrink and Expand with the temperature.
Who you going to blame for that? Who you going to sue for Wood behaving like Wood? What’s so important about this piece that wood Shrinkage and Expansion is so intolerable?
You buy a Doughnut, you know what you’re getting. You asked for the flavour, the number, and whatever other goodies to go with it. You going to crack out a scale and caliper to measure and see that EVERY Doughnut is the same? That the boiling oil required to turn the batter into a Doughnut created the EXACT same number of bubbles inside to make an EXACT clone doughnut every time? Or is it just going to be delicious, as intended?
Same goes for Wood. You ARE buying a 2X4. PHYSICS doesn’t allow you to buy the SAME 2X4 every single time you go out to buy one. Going to sue the standards people for some conspiracy to comply with Physics now? It’s RIDICULOUS the replies you’ve come up with, Lack… Utter NONSENSE…
I’m sorry to the rest of you… But that was just… Plain old Stupid… Through and Through…
2X4 is a Product Name, not a Measurement. It certainly isn’t in Metric, but it might as well be an approximate Ratio.
The yeti
Do u use metric at work in Canada? Do u live in Quebec ?
Alick
Many trades have their own language and norms. Part of the learning curve at the beginning of any trade.
One of the interesting challenges in DIY can be trying to figure out the “correct” name for some item. Don’t know the right term and it can be like stuff doesn’t exist.
Dimensional lumber is a bit like that. I recall going to the timber yard with my dad before Home Depot and the like ever existed. He would buy rough sawn 2×4’s. If he needed finished planks, the yard would surface them while we waited. In making “Planed All Round” (PAR) the sawn timber usually lost just under a quarter inch each face as it was flattened and squared.
Consumer legislation has fought for a long time against false and misleading labelling. As DIY by people with little or no previous experience becomes commonplace, we have the potential for a clash between two systems. Hopefully the store will have been posting those small signs that explain what the actual finished dimensions are and the lawyers will get short shrift.
Dwain (oztooltalk)
I say get with the times, use metric sizing, and the whole problem goes away 😛
fred
Probably not!
This is not so much a systems of measurement issue as it is what we call something that long ago was full dimensioned and now has been adjusted downward a bit more over time. We could call it a 38 X 89 – but then might find it (on the rack) to be 40 X 90 or 37 x 88 or something else. Better to say its a nominal measurement that will fit in a stud wall – but have a disclaimer that if you plan to use it for something else where the dimension matters more – you need to measure the actual product as delivered.
Dwain (oztooltalk)
I see your point, but calling something 35×90 and having it out by a mil or two in either dimension is a totally different thing than calling the above a 2″x4″ 😛
Ann
Stud walls aren’t so standard anymore either! Some use 2x6s, or double studs of various sizes.
MT_Noob
I suspect they may end up having to label them as “2×4” and “4×4” in quotes to to indicate that they are not true dimensions. Or put an asterisk somewhere on the label.
Utter nonsense.
This reminds me of the hard drive size issues many years back. People were suing in hopes to get every singe bit and byte out of hard drive spaces not realizing the math involved and the fact that file systems took up hard drive space when setting up the filesystem and tables.
Ann
The hard drive situation wasn’t/isn’t about space lost to legitimate purposes like that, it’s about the hard drive industry standardizing their marketing around bytes in multiples of 1000, years (decades?) after the OS/software side of things standardized on measuring space in multiples of 1024 bytes. This math difference turns a “1 TB”-on-the-box hard drive into a 0.91 TB hard drive when measured by your computer, even before using any of that space for formatting/tables/etc.
Tegian
In Sweden there we are totally metric we still do use 2×4 and so on when we speak, as in “Shall we use 2×4:s for the frame?” and then we go the lumber yard and buy 45x90mm 🙂
Robbie Stanford
I think you guys are missing the point and are falling for the misdirection coming out of the industry.
I was in Lowe’s the other day looking at 2×4’s and I couldn’t believe the quality or lack of through the whole bundle, half the boards still had bark on them and were round on one side.
I was always told a 2×4 meant it was rough cut to that dimension then milled down through a jointer and planer to get all 4 sides parallel and square and that’s why it had a final dimension of 2 1/2 by 1 3/4. That has always been the industry standard
The wood they are selling us today has not been milled down, it’s junk and unusable.
They are selling unmilled lumber as milled lumber, I’m glad they are getting sued.
Jim Felt
I think you were looking at their kindling selection. Go to a real lumber yard. Not a crummy fast food version.
No. Really.
Robbie Stanford
Like I said, you guys are missing the point, I’ve been buying wood for over 20 years
Peter
This is odd. Timber is sized the same here (in Oz) and even using the metric system the sizes are similar to the traditional imperial sizes. Timber has been sized like this since Adam wore shorts.
Surely the suit will be dismissed before it gets anywhere?
I guess lawyers don’t make stuff out of timber.
Mr. Gerbik
“The history of dimensional lumber” is a pdf that explains everything. Look it up & get some knowledge before you start talking about something that you don’t know s__t about. Otherwise shut the hell up. Your embarrassing yourselves. These ambulance chasers don’t stand a snowballs chance in hell & I hope the entire lumber industry goes after these idiots after they lose their lawsuit.
jcg
I’ve only read about half the posts, but as a novice…if I go to Lowes to buy a 2×4, I expect a 2×4. This whole “dimensional lumber” talk to me seems like BS. Maybe it is the way it is (novice), but it’s false advertising. In my line of work, you’re out of a job/license for false advertising. But with this new knowledge, when (if) I ever build our dream home, it will be on mind that I want a real 2×4 and 2×6.
Joseph Malone
A 2×4 is 1.5″x2.5″ and a 4×4 is 3.5″x3.5″. Pros and big box stores are all masons and worship the number 3.5. They use satanic numbers to build crappy homes. They try hard to keep people uninformed so they can charge more.
They list nominal and actual sizes on wood. The actual sizes due not change. The people saying the wood changes used moot points to confuse the issues. If kiln dried wood getting wet it will not change noticeably. It WILL get easier to bend and straighten if need be.
Big box stores have wood standardized so that all the pieces are uniform in size. It will be the same size when you buy it as it will be a year later after being stored in a non humidity and temperature garage.
2×4’s are NOT 1.75 will the expectation that it is “close” enough to 2″. That is hogwash. Shrinking does occur when kiln drying due that is anticipated and accounted for. They manipulate the wood to get as close to 1.5″ as possible but never 1.75″ (at least in the western united state… f*ck knows for eastern or southern swamp woods areas)
They were too lazy to tell customers what to expect and cater to people people whose mentally that a cupped board with zero right angles is “straight enough” for their needs. Going to rustic lumber yards those minimum standards go out the window and language gets less precise.
The big box stores are being sued for lack of due diligence in communicating what they were selling to the customer. Just because backyard “pros” accepted lousy service does not make it an acceptable practice. The national committees mentioned only give suggestions into how lumber should be labeled but by no means have any official power. Their job is mainly to promote the lumber industry which they do a lousy job of. What they excel at is research into growing and harvesting methods but that is information that they do not readily disclose to the general public.
Suing the store means they will have to be less callous in their descriptions of lumber. Whatever penalties they face will be a drop in the bucket compared to the BILLIONS they get in yearly profits. No way is this meaning customers will have to pay more so defending big stores is rather shillish and retarded.
The people suing will not get free wood or lower prices. They will get better business practices and transparency actual cut and grade being offered. This in turn will increase interest in woodworking and be a boon to both the economy and public knowledge.
It is a good thing they got sued so that now they have to be consistent and clear in their explanations instead of using deceptive marketing practices. A bad thing would be if they tried to double down and used further abusive behavior to make the marketplace worse as punishment for calling them out on their lazy marketing. I do not have any faith in these people. They have done many things in the past that have made them not worthy of trust.
Stuart
I’m almost afraid to ask, but how is 3.5 a “satanic number?”