2022 is going to be a pivotal year in the cordless power tool industry. What is Milwaukee Tool going to do, to keep up with competitor advancements?
Dewalt PowerStack – a stacked lithium pouch battery – is off to a very strong start, and they surely have higher capacity battery sizes on their road map. Dewalt also has their higher-voltage FlexVolt cordless system.
Flex has come out with a trio of new Stacked Lithium batteries. While Flex is a relative newcomer, the company behind the brand is not. According to recent promotional materials, Flex’s Stacked Lithium batteries have been in development for 5 years.
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Makita broke through the power and performance limits of their 18V cordless power tool system by launching XGT, an 18V-form factor 36V/40V Max system. Makita accomplishes higher power delivery with dual-battery power for tools that need it.
Bosch has their 18V Profactor system, although they don’t seem to be doing much with it.
Metabo HPT has MultiVolt, a hybrid 36V/18V battery system.
Hilti recently launched Nuron, a new 22V cordless platform.
Milwaukee’s last major cordless battery technology advancement came in 2019, 2-1/2 years ago, when they announced their MX Fuel cordless equipment system. However, MX Fuel is distinctly a line of cordless equipment, rather than the mainly handheld and benchtop tools found in typical cordless power tool systems.
Milwaukee’s most powerful and highest capacity battery is their High Output HD 12.0 Ah battery.
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Where will Milwaukee go next?
In addition to Dewalt recently launching their most compact 20V Max battery ever with PowerStack, they have also come out with their largest and highest capacity FlexVolt battery ever, with a 15Ah charge capacity.
Meanwhile, in the red corner, there’s… nothing? Not exactly.
Milwaukee has a new M18 dual battery cordless mower coming out this spring. They also announced a new line of cordless shop vacuums and AirTip accessories. The two larger-sized vacuums will be powered by a dual-battery motor head.
So is Milwaukee going the dual-battery route? Not exactly.
Milwaukee’s M18 Radius Site Light worklight features a dual battery bay, and it can operate off of 1 battery, or 2 in sequence. While not the same as the dual-battery mower or vacuums that require the use of two batteries, dual-battery potential was always there.
I don’t think that “M18 X2” is going to be an emerging solution. They could have done this all along, but chose not to.
With tools like a mower or shop vacuum, having to use two batteries is a compromise.
Dewalt and Flex are taking their own routes towards higher energy density and power delivery.
The 18650-sized Li-ion cells hit a power and performance barrier at 3Ah. There’s a reason why most brands’ 5-cell 18V-class batteries stop at 2.5Ah, and their 10-cell batteries stop at 5.0Ah.
21700-sized Li-ion cells are larger, but offer higher charge capacities and power delivery levels. Most brands seem to have stopped with 4.0Ah or 5.0Ah cells in 5-, 10-, and 15-cell configurations.
Dewalt’s Flexvolt and 20V Max-compatible 15Ah battery is not built the same as their 12Ah battery, meaning they did not simply take the 12Ah form factor and swap the 4Ah cells for 5Ah cells.
Milwaukee does not need to go larger. They have MX Fuel for that. They can also utilize a dual-battery M18 interface for tools that could benefit from it without mobility compromises.
The spotlight will increasingly focus on the handheld tool space.
While Dewalt’s initial PowerStack battery offering has a meager 1.7Ah charge capacity, it’s a sprinter with lots of muscle.
Flex has 3 new batteries – 3.5Ah, 6.0Ah, and 10.0Ah. They have Dewalt and Milwaukee beat with respect to theoretical power limits.
Milwaukee M18 High Output batteries punch above their weight classes. Meaning, an HO compact (5-cell) battery is more on par with an XC (10-cell) battery built with “standard” 18650 cells, an HO XC (10-cell) battery is on par with an HD (15-cell) battery, and an HO XC battery (12Ah, 15-cell) provides the highest possible performance level.
According to the numbers, Flex’s new Stacked Lithium batteries are delivering yet another level of improvements.
The comparison isn’t exactly fair, as Flex has a 24V Max system with a base configuration of 6 cells, compared to the 5-cells of 18V and 20V Max systems.
All this is to say that Milwaukee seems to be facing a situation where they could be left behind as other brands charge ahead.
Milwaukee announced their M18 HD 9Ah battery in 2015, one year before Dewalt came out with their FlexVolt system. They are used to pushing boundaries.
I remember talking with a Milwaukee product manager about FlexVolt’s then-still-incoming 9Ah battery, which was described as being engineered with 20700-sized Li-ion cells. When would Milwaukee come out with their own next-gen higher performance M18 battery?
At the time, Milwaukee was not considering 20700, but had their sights set on 21700, which was forecast as a potential industry standard due to Tesla and other battery-makers’ interest.
Milwaukee has been able to advance and upgrade their battery tech over the years, with product managers more than once attributing their consistent compatibility to early-on flexible and forward-thinking engineering. It’s possible luck has also been a factor.
I have received numerous questions about if, when, and how Milwaukee might respond to cordless competitors’ battery tech advancements.
I don’t know.
What I do know is that it seems stacked lithium pouch-style battery cells provide a clear forward-charging path, and this new tech will likely break through current power and performance limits.
Dewalt’s new PowerStack battery is small, but it’s just the start. Flex’s new batteries will set new expectations and benchmarks.
What is Milwaukee going to do about it?
Right now, they’re quiet about everything. But, that’s the Milwaukee Tool way. They hold things close and work at their own pace.
Dewalt tipped their hand with PowerStack, but didn’t quite show all of their cards yet. Flex has everything on display, but they’re not playing at the same table yet.
There’s time.
I don’t know what Milwaukee is working on, whether pouch-style M18 batteries or something different, but I have faith that they’re working on something.
It has been 3 years since Milwaukee launched CP 3.0Ah and XC 8.0Ah batteries, and 4 years since they launched their 12.0Ah battery. It has been nearly 3 years since they first announced the MX Fuel line of cordless equipment.
What do you think Milwaukee Tool has been doing since then?
I can tell you that, pandemic-related disruptions notwithstanding, they haven’t been resting on their laurels. They’re not twiddling their thumbs. They’re not biding their time.
Milwaukee isn’t “in trouble,” and they’re not “falling behind.”
It seems that pouch-style lithium battery packs are the future, but there could be other paths that aren’t obvious yet. Either way, I’m sure Milwaukee will show their hand when ready.
Cordless power tool tech is changing. I am sure Milwaukee is are working on something, it’s just a question of when they’ll be ready to reveal it.
Milwaukee tends to be cautious and calculated. They could have went the higher voltage route, but didn’t. Yes, MX Fuel is a higher voltage system, but it’s not a handheld tool system. They could have went with a dual battery option, and they have done this for select tools.
With High Output, Milwaukee didn’t just build batteries around larger format Li-ion cells, they pushed new advancements, such as with custom power management ICs to help deliver higher current levels.
Milwaukee tends to have remarkably low turnover at the management level, which means the company’s path has been charted by quite a few of the same people who have been there when M18 first launched.
Just because we don’t know what Milwaukee is working on, that doesn’t mean they’re sitting on their hands. I trust that big things are coming.
What do you think Milwaukee’s next M18 advancement might look like – pouch-style batteries, or something else?
Lance
I’m amazed at the lack of marketing surrounding their new 2x M18 tools. If anyone can lay down the marketing wank it’s Milwaukee. Are they just too proud to admit someone else got it right and refuse to follow in anyone’s footsteps?
As for the future, they certainly seem to be getting out-played right now!
Stuart
I don’t think 2xM18 is going to be a broad strategy for them.
If you’re implying that Makita got it right, that would be incorrect. Black & Decker had dual-battery tools far earlier, with Versapak.
And if Makita “got it right,” they wouldn’t have had to create an entirely separate 18V form factor system to deliver higher power solutions.
There are rarely right and wrong approaches to cordless tool advancement. *Different* can be good, as it tests multiple approaches all at once, leading to cross-developments and progress.
I’ve received and seen a lot of “they seem to be getting out-played right now” questions and messages, but it’s a very premature sentiment.
Lance
I’m not so much saying that Makita got it right, I’m saying Milwaukee may not want to admit they copied someone else’s solution.
When Milwaukee claims to have a case of “disruptive innovation” the surrounding marketing is so thick you can barely see through it. These 2x18v (36v???) tools are actually the biggest thing Milwaukee has done for their M18 lineup since Fuel brushless came out, yet they’re not marketing it at all. I mean nada, zilch, nothing… it just “uses two batteries”.
This is so uncharacteristic for them it actually seems like they’re trying to hide it, since there’s no mention AT ALL of higher operating voltage. Sorry, but to me they seem to be treating their customers like they’re not smart enough to figure out that higher voltage is actually better.
This is directly in line with their MX+ release, where there was absolutely no mention of voltage because “voltage is not important”. They just want people to buy the tools, not understand how they work (or why another brand could potentially have a technical advantage).
I like Milwaukee but I HATE marketing.
Collin
100% agree. Couldn’t agree more, Lance.
Milwaukee hasn’t had a case of “disruptive innovation” for years. Yes, years.
There’s nothing in the Milwaukee lineup that is actually “disruptive” right now. Milwaukee does have a solid lineup of tools for lots of trades but that’s about it.
If anyone’s been “disruptive” recently it’s been DeWalt for obvious reasons.
Lance
BTW, Makita’s 18v X2 platform actually has a huge advantage over their new 40V XGT tools. 18v X2 has TWICE as many cells to pull power from.
Makita dropped the ball with X2. They were way too conservative with power draw and should have been selling tools 10 years ago that had literally TWICE as much power as their 10-cell competitors, which was everyone back then.
Collin
Yeah, Makita went conservative with the power draw.
And Milwaukee did the exact opposite and releases tools that are “compatible” with “all” their batteries except the little-publicized fact that you need a “High Output” battery to really run many of the M18 tools unless you like overheating batteries and thermal timeouts.
I have to give props to DeWalt for not playing Milwaukee’s shell game of “all M18 batteries work with all M18 tools” by drawing a hard line in the sand with FlexVolt batteries and tools.
The fact of the matter is that yes, all M18 batteries will (generally) physically fit within all M18 tools, but even the relatively high capacity and immensely popular XC5.0 is simply insufficient for the insane current draw of many M18 tools, such as the chainsaw, the edger, the blower, etc. You can power any of those aforementioned tools for a few minutes before hitting thermal timeout and damaging your battery in the process.
Ronny
In the design of the 18V X2 tools, they also presumably failed to foresee the movement to larger battery cells in the future. Unless Makita adopts pouch-cell technology or something similar, they’re stuck with 18650s for the 18V LXT batteries.
They also don’t have a 3P pack in the LXT line either – capacity maxes out at 6 Ah.
Bubba Wooley
Not really because nobody else’s products hold up as good as theirs they can take abuse
RI Guy
I’m still pretty bummed that Milwaukee is owned by a Chinese company. Considering what is going on in China regarding slavery as well as their support for Putin I’m out of Red.
Stuart
TTI is a publicly-traded company based in Hong Kong.
Milwaukee is based in the USA, and they are expanding their USA production efforts. This means more American jobs.
Milwaukee USA-based employees pay USA taxes and spend money at USA businesses.
They invest a lot more here than many – if not most – other tool brands.
You can take whatever political stand you want, I just want to ensure you’re well-informed.
I see a lot of “Milwaukee is a Chinese company” comments, where most are simply parroting something they read on the internet, and without fully understanding what they’re actually talking about.
A growing number of USA-based tool brands are owned by private or publicly-traded companies headquartered in China. There are also a growing number of boutique companies where a couple of people establish an American-sounding brand whose entire business is based on importing private label products designed, developed, and manufactured overseas.
If you look closely, there are reasons to boycott nearly every retailer and many different tool brands.
If you’re going to voice your political stance about Milwaukee here, my options as admin are to delete it if off-topic or too political-leaning, or provide context to avoid blind propagation.
Excessive inhalation or consumption of dihydrogen monoxide can be fatal. Its solid and gaseous forms can cause discomfort or injury when in direct contact with skin. Prolonged contact exposure can be fatal. BAN DHMO! Right?
Context matters.
You’re entitled to your opinion and stance, whether you’ve done the proper research or not.
In any case, NO POLITICS.
Bill
Tis true. Water can kill you just as the air you breathe can, and surely politics.
it’s_jake
No ethics consumption under capitalism right? it’s a tough reality to accept. some evils certainly are lesser than others but i’m not interested in discussing with with randos on the internet
Jon in Chicago
I’m going to just keep using my M18/M12 tools and making money doing it. They do what I ask them to do and do it pretty reliability. Performance benefits from new tech seems to be in the low single digit % improvement, not worth the time or cost to invest in a new battery platform. In my opinion sticking to what they’ve been doing is a selling point not a detriment.
fred
When 18V Li-Ion battery tools were first coming in – across 3 businesses – we bought mostly in Makita based on their early offerings. They just had more of what we needed. But Dewalt and Milwaukee caught up. In the plumbing businesses – we were moving toward Milwaukee when I sold up and retired – and I now understand that my ex-compatriots are nearly 100% Milwaukee. It was not very often that we (in any of the businesses that I was associated with) scrapped a working tool in favor of a new one – unless it offered a significant step up in productivity or safety. So, I see switching battery platforms more as an evolutionary phenomenon than a paradigm shift – unless the technology makes a leap as it did when Li-Ion replaced NiCad. Even then there will be some inertia involved – so the old styles will likely remain in use for some time.
All that said, for individual users – especially ones just starting out – there is less of a need to consider the fleet of tools/batteries already in use. There are also users who are not satisfied unless they are using the newest and best – and they often become first adopters.
Jeremiah
Slow and steady wins the race. Budweiser hasn’t changed their formula since it was delivered. If it works, don’t fix it.
Jay
That mentality may work fine in the food industry, but apply the same logic to the tool industry – try building a 200 unit apartment complex in 6 months with a bow drill and pull saw 🙂
Robert
You got that right my friend. Work isn’t the playground or the bedroom if it works and get you where you need to be keep using. I’m not chucking my Milwaukee so I can show up with new Dewalt.
Badger 12345
“Milwaukee tends to be cautious and calculated.”
Yes.
Their target audience is trades people and their strategy is to develop a complete line of tools to dominate a particular trade (e.g. plumbing, electrical.) I come from a huge family of trades people and know a lot of other trades people too. The plumbers, electricians, and HVAC techs I know, for example, don’t care about gimmicks. They want tools that work well, are reliable, use the same batteries, and are reasonably priced relative to quality. Their tools are simply a way to make a good income for their families. Milwaukee knows that too.
My hunch is that Milwaukee will introduce new battery technology or whatever when it makes sense for their target audience and it has been thoroughly tested and proven in their labs.
Homeowners, like myself, buy tools like Milwaukee because I believe they are fully vetted by the professionals. If Milwaukee can make a tool with a five year warranty that works in a professional environment, then it should last nearly forever for me at home.
Soundman98
“The plumbers, electricians, and HVAC techs I know, for example, don’t care about gimmicks. They want tools that work well, are reliable, use the same batteries, and are reasonably priced relative to quality.”
Exactly.
About a year ago, the local Milwaukee rep was pushing the MX platform at a trade show. I asked about the Milwaukee lawn mower, and he speculated they might use the MX batteries in it for the capacity demands.
I laughed, and told him if I’ve got to buy an entirely different set of batteries and chargers, I’m buying the DeWalt mower because it’s already on the market, has a proven track record, and I can use the batteries in other power tools around the house if needed. I haven’t bought into the other electric mower brands specifically because of the single-purpose batteries…
Batteries are the single biggest cost in my arsenal of tools. The benefit to ANY tool brand over another are the variety of tools that fit the battery tech I’ve already got.
Jeremiah
In my honest, professional opinion, there should also be a pro-MX OPE Line up.
James
It’s coming.
Jared
Pouch cells seem like the future, but I’m not clever enough to figure out if there are other options.
For a long time it seemed like Milwaukee was touting how they didn’t need to adopt something like Flexvolt because their superior batter tech let them make tools just as powerful without compromising on compatibility. However, it seems like they might now be brushing up against the ceiling.
I agree – I doubt Milwaukee is just going to throw their hands in the air. I bet something is coming.
Stuart
Regarding FlexVolt, there is an inherent advantage with a higher voltage system and tools tuned to 15-cell battery performance.
But Milwaukee’s approach has merit too. It is notable that Dewalt now has 20V Max “FlexVolt Advantage” and “Power Detect” tools.
Dewalt has been under-utilizing the FlexVolt line in recent years, and we might see more 20V Max FlexVolt Advantage tools, such as with the recent air compressor.
Drew M
Higher dc voltages also have inherent disadvantages when talking about brushless tools.
People like to get exicited about I^2*R losses and completely ignore the far more complicated efficiency and power curves and electronics costs associated with >~50v dc brushless motors.
Generally speaking maximum efficiency voltage is related to how much power is required and so, sometimes, a lower input voltage is actually more efficient.
Collin
There is a lot more nuance than I understand, but one thing is clear to me: Milwaukee’s large 18 volt tools such as the chainsaw will cause thermal cutoff even in their 12.0 batteries, while reports of DeWalt’s Flexvolt batteries going into thermal timeout is minimal.
There was a YouTube channel that measured battery temps after chainsaw use and the DeWalt was a good 20 to 30 degrees Celsius cooler than the Milwaukee battery.
Ronny
Exception of the new 15Ah FlexVolt, which is a behemoth containing thirty 18650s. Pretend you wired together three XC5.0s and you’ll get the idea.
Gordon
Pouch batteries are a cool new tech, but I don’t see them becoming the de-facto standard for a while. They have low weight, and high output at the expense of runtime, so their applications are limited. I’d be curious to see what can be done in larger Ah form factors. But, they do offer the possibility of extending the life of 18v platforms as more companies try to move to larger voltage batteries. Specifically I know Makita is unable to use 21700 cells in an 18v battery because of their x2 tools. Pouch based batteries could give a boost in performance, and placate 18v owners. Flex will also be the guinea pig for battery durability.
I would argue that the M18 HO batteries were a half jump ahead that really helped Milwaukee separate themselves a few years ago. I think their mistake was not going to an x2 system for tools like OPE sooner. Clearly it’s needed for mowers, and it makes sense to use for something like a blower which seems to be the most demanding tool for batteries. Could you imagine a blower with 2x 12.0 HO batteries?
I would be most shocked if Milwaukee doesn’t expand their x2 offerings. The 21700 cells already in use are probably the largest we’ll see in a 18v system. So Milwaukee can already easily design around those sizes. It offers a clear commitment to 18v vs the Flexvolt and XGT offerings. And I still argue that for the HD/Lowes shopper, the advantages of one battery outweigh the performance of larger voltages.
Jared
I assume Milwaukee is heavily biased against “x2 tools” and would be reluctant to go that route. Don’t get me wrong, that approach solves the power cap problem and maintains all-battery compatibility. It might make sense.
However, Milwaukee seemed to specifically choose a different path with their “HO” offerings, even where “x2″ might have made sense (e.g. a table saw, where it’s no big deal to have a second battery attached since the tool isn’t mobile).
I realize Milwaukee now has some dual battery tools (like mowers), but would they be willing to come out with other dual-battery tools where their competitors could make do with one?
Say Dewalt releases a Flexvolt 9” angle grinder. Will Milwaukee counter that with a dual-battery grinder?
MM
Pouch style batteries are not limited to short runtime applications only. It can appear that way since they are capable of supplying higher current and high current applications imply short runtime by simple math, but *any* battery has short runtime in such a situation. Pouch batteries perform the same as cylindrical cells for low current draw tools.
aaron s
Pouch cells have better power density, I get it… how does it compare to density on the m12 3.0cp packs?
If the problem we’re trying to solve is a compact tool with good power, m12 fuel has it already nailed down pretty well. If it’s long run time the 12ah m18 does pretty well. I don’t think there’s an issue of falling behind so much as other brands are innovating to solve problems milwaukee already has an answer for.
I don’t think most of us pick up a driver and wish that it had 7% more run time at the same weight or whatever benefit we’re looking at.
Milwaukee seems like they do a good job of figuring out the actual problem and solving that.
Stuart
It’s hard to compare against the small size of an M12 CP 3Ah battery, but there’s a huge difference in power/performance potential.
Another complication is that 18650 cells will be around for a while, but if sales volume suffers across multiple industries, costs might increase.
That was and might still be a concern, given the direction the EV industry is going.
Pouch batteries also give toolmakers different options, rather than tethering their tools to what groupings of what 18650 or even 21700 Li-ion cells can do.
I don’t think the entire industry will shift to pouch batteries, at least not quickly, but it holds the potential to open doors and raise some ceilings.
Dave
Yep, power tool mfgs get the benefit of piggybacking off of whatever other industries are using for battery cells in a much, much higher volume scenario so they can get better pricing (like automotive).
Ej
And Tesla (largest buyer of li ion batteries in the world) is moving to 4860 form factor and these huge “cans” are harder to stack &tesselate into small higher voltage packages. It is possible the “free ride” Evs have given handheld tools by financing the scale of li-ion battery production is ending, and now we will have to ride the coattails of battery tech from the likes of iPhones and MacBooks.
Ronny
He makes a good point in toolmakers having options. 21700 cells aren’t an option for several tool lines due to physical size constraints, M12 being one of them.
Doug N
I think Milwaukee has been affected by supply chain issues more than some other companies because until recently 100% of their power tools were manufactured in China. DeWalt and Makita are more diversified, with manufacturing in Mexico and Japan. I realize Milwaukee has expanded this in the USA recently.
Maybe just speculation, but Milwaukee has been relatively quiet for the past two years. I’m sure they will catch up.
OldDominionDIYer
Just to clarify
DeWalt is a global manufacturer of power tools, hand tools, and accessories. They manufacture their tools in the following countries: United States, Mexico, Brazil, China, Italy, United Kingdom, and the Czech Republic.
While Milwaukee Tool has manufacturing bases and facilities in China, Vietnam, the U.S., Mexico and Europe.
Makita operates factories in Brazil, China, Japan, Mexico, Romania, the United Kingdom, Germany, United Arab Emirates, Thailand and the United States
Sounds pretty similar to me.
Which MFR has introduced the most tools since 2020? Milwaukee
If Milwaukee has been “relatively quiet” Dewalt and Makita have been asleep!
Doug N
I disagree when you say that Milwaukee doesn’t need bigger M18 batteries. Dewalt has 15ah (30 cells), Makita announced an 8ah XGT (20 cells), and Hilti and Flex both have 22/24v 12ah (18 cells). The 12ah M18 has 15 cells.
The biggest challenge with large cordless tools now is run time, due to the high power draw on the newest models. Milwaukee could create an M18 20ah battery, by adding 5 more cells and using 5ah 21700 cells. This would be smaller than the new DeWalt 15ah.
The latest 5ah Samsung cells can’t handle the same high current draw as the 3ah or 4ah ones, but by spreading out over 20 cells, it would mitigate that problem. Would be perfect for the lawn mower, but it doesn’t look like they designed it to take anything larger than the 12ah.
Collin
20 cells would be suicidal in any Milwaukee M18 application. Milwaukee M18 is already pushing existing batteries to thermal limits because of Milwaukee’s insistence on sticking with a relatively low voltage. Low voltage means you have to push more amps to get the same power out.
20 cells in a M18 configuration would mean 4 rows of 5 cells. That’s the only form factor that would work for M18, as I doubt Milwaukee wants to create a battery pack that’s nearly twice the length of the current 12.0 (3 rows of 5 cells).
The M18 12.0 already hits thermal limits in many high-demand tools, in large part due to its 3-high stack of cells. The center stack of cells can’t get any cooling–they’re boxed in by hot lithium cells above, below, left, and right.
A M18 20.0 would just mean even more cells in the center area that can’t be cooled.
A M18 20.0 would likely carry only a Harbor Freight-esque 90 day warranty from Milwaukee.
Big Richard
Something to keep in mind, another reason the cells of the 12.0Ah are reaching thermal limits is because each cell is pulling ~33A to hit that 1800W power number. IF they were to come out with a 4 row 20 cell pack, they could still hit that 1800W number while only pulling 25A from each cell, which is a bit more reasonable – less Amps equals less heat. The pack itself would still be drawing 100A, which could still cause thermal shutdown in the tool itself.
For the record I also don’t see them doing a 4 row 20 cell pack.
Ronny
It wouldn’t necessarily have to be physically oriented as 4 rows of 5 or 2 rows of 10 – that’s just how they would be wired.
The 15Ah FlexVolt battery has 30 cells which are wired in a 5×6 or 15×2 configuration depending on the voltage. However, the actual cells are arranged in 4 staggered rows – 8+7+8+7
It’s still a huge battery, as would be a 20-cell M18.
Ronny
Samsung 30T and 40T are rated for 35 amps continuous. The 50E is rated for 9.8 amps continuous…that’s a huge gap to close.
You could create a 20-cell pack using 50E cells, which would be rated for 20 Ah. However, its total discharge rating (196 A) would be somewhere between the High Output CP3.0 (175 A) and the standard XC5.0 (250 A). That’s not going to run a Super Sawzall long before it overheats. It’s also going to be a 5-6 pound battery, so you can’t really plop it on a drill, either.
By comparison, the HD12.0 has a rated maximum of 525 amps continuous. You’d need to wire together at least 53 of the 50E cells to get that same discharge rating.
Don’t get me wrong – your thinking is very much in the right place! However, cell discharge ratings really matter!
Jp
I wonder if mx series can allow for a true blower like the echo 1000 cfm high moh blower. I need to replace by gas backpack blower and brushcutter and nobody makes anything like gas powered products.
Albert Zadeh
Husqvarna 535iFR is a very nice brush cutter. It and the chainsaw are comparable to gas of the same size. Their batteries put the others to shame. Not cheap though. They have a 340iBT backpack blower, but I’ve never used it.
Dave
I wonder about MX. I’ve never seen one on a job site and industrial tool supplier near me stopped carrying them. I was interested in the sewer cleaner but there weren’t many user reviews and they were fairly bad by Milwaukee standards. I wonder if they’re going to double down on it or bail. I think it would have been more successful if they used it for OPE, portable saws, etc. I’m even more leery about investing in them now that they don’t seem to have gained much traction in the industry.
Leo B.
On a remodel job I’m on, we had a sub come in to cut the concrete driveway for a run from the main panel to the garage. They used a gas saw but had a MX Fuel concrete saw rolled out too. I’m not sure if they used it, or if they did, what for, but I thought it was interesting. It wasn’t a huge outfit or anything either, but they clearly saw some worth in getting it. Just something I saw recently.
Nathan
so milwaukee has been low key about the X2 system on the mower and I forget the other tool and I can see why. They said some years ago they would never do that. The light when it came out with 2 bays – it was made very clear that it’s a one battery use tool but you can run off 2 if you need/want to. . . . .
ok fine BMW ate crow when they started putting turbos on cars too.
I suspect they will have a pouch battery too and I wouldn’t be surprised it it popped up this year and they do like dewalt did but instead have both 12 v and 18V models and they have up to 3AH. I wouldn’t be surprised at that at all.
but I also wouldn’t discount them bringing on a new line of 24V or even 28V tools. or pick some other arbitrary number. who knows until they throw it out there.
Stuart
Milwaukee is firmly against having multiple handheld cordless power tool systems beyond M12 and M18. I sincerely doubt that M28 would make a comeback here.
Maybe they might eventually change their minds, but I don’t see it happening anytime soon.
Collin
Milwaukee is firmly against a lot of things that would have helped with the power limits they’re hitting in their M18 tools:
1) Higher voltages
2) Dual battery tools
Short of a cylindrical battery technology breakthrough, Milwaukee has pretty much reached the end of the road in terms of maximum power.
Take the Flex 10.0Ah pouch cell battery for example. It has a max continuous discharge rating of over 2500 watts. It only has 6 pouches.
2500 watts / 24 volts = 104 amps
That means each pouch can continuously output over 100 amps.
21700 cells have already hit their continuous current discharge limits. There’s a reason Tesla is moving on from 21700’s and onto other cylindrical form factors. This continuous current discharge limit is 40 amps for the smaller capacity 3.0Ah 21700 cells and 35 amps for the larger capacity 4.0Ah 21700 cells.
The pouch cells in that 10.0Ah Flex pack are about to output 150% more amps than 3.0Ah 21700 cells.
A 150% improvement is not a generation improvement, usually. A 150% improvement is more akin to a breakthrough.
I remember when Milwaukee’s slogan was “The Next Breakthrough is Here.”
Milwaukee better be working on a real breakthrough.
But I doubt it’ll be seen in 2022. Otherwise it would have been leaked already. Milwaukee can hardly hang on to its secrets. Like the M12 fan, which was leaked over a year ago. Or the lawnmower, which was leaked months prior to the press release, and half a year before the actual product release. The tracksaw, which is leaked, with actual pictures not rumors. The new Packout Garage system was on Facebook. Etc.
Pouches Nogo
My issue with pouches is how reliable are they? I’ve had 3 different instruments that utilized them and they all failed at some point due to the pouch swelling, two probably from impact and no idea on the third. Maybe heat. While I know cylindrical cells can be damaged it takes a lot to do so. Pouches seem inherently fragile… jot good to have on worksites. They’ve been around for a long time so I suspect their fragility is the reason it hasn’t been adopted long ago.
Big Richard
Does the Flex 10.0Ah actually have only 1 set of cells, or is it 2p pack with 2 sets of 5000mAh cells? I have not been able to get any confirmation on this, but my guess would be that it is a 2p pack and that there are 12 total cells, so each cell is drawing ~58A (2520W / 21.6V / 2 sets = 58.33A).
Ronny
There’s no way that the 10.0-Ah battery has 6 pouches. Not at that size (3.4 pounds!). Look at the three batteries listed on their website…they are three different sizes.
The 3.5-Ah battery would be your 6 cell pack (1P).
The 6.0-Ah battery would be your 12 cell pack (2P).
The 10.0-Ah battery would be your 18-cell pack (3P).
Tony
Maybe Milwaukee is trying to figure out how to add a type of buck boost transformer style to there power tools so to still use a m18 battery but the power tool internal can switch it up to a higher voltage 🤔🤔🤔 when more power is required
Collin
I fail to understand why you bring up the M18 9.0 battery as a positive example of Milwaukee “pushing boundaries.” The only boundaries that the M18 9.0Ah battery pushed were thermal boundaries, as demonstrated by the reports of battery fires and Milwaukee’s still-ongoing recall of the 9.0’s.
Stuart
The 9.0Ah was not recalled.
I have heard of some examples where users’ damaged or defective batteries were replaced with HO 8Ah batteries.
Like it or not, the 9Ah was the first 15-cell battery, and it delivered more power for longer than the next-best batteries at the time.
I didn’t call it a positive example, but yes it was a milestone.
fred
From what I had read the 9Ah battery did not fare well when subjected to sea water or bleach. What? A battery that might short out and catch fire when soaked in an electrolytic solution – Quel Suprise!
A bit more sobering is the fact that as we look to use higher and higher capacity batteries – we need to treat them with respect. There remain overheating issues and potential for fire to contend with. I always would look with a bit of wonder – bordering on concern – when I’d walk by our row of batteries charging in one of our workout buildings. Sometimes we might have a row of 4 or more batteries per crew charging at once. That’s a lot of energy all lined-up in one place
Bill
Milwaukee themselves actually put out that bulletin about the 9ah battery and ‘corrosive liquids’ causing a safety issue. It was quite telling that it only applied to the 9ah specifically, as if their other batteries are cool with corrosive liquids.
Most likely it was an attempt to deflect from whatever the real issue with the batteries were, and make people think the widespread problems that were being reported were due to morons dunking their batteries in the ocean.
An interesting look at how corporate ‘reputation management’ works!
Stuart
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/milwaukee-issues-expanded-warning-about-m18-9ah-battery-pack/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
There was no other “real issue with the batteries.” As this was their first 15-cell battery, it could be that liquid infiltration was more persistent and potentially damaging than if the same thing happened with a 5- or 10-cell battery.
Bill
Mar 18, 2022
The 9.0 definitely had other issues. I believe it’s still the lowest rated battery on Milwaukee’s site (1.3 out of 5 stars). You were not allowed to ship them back for service (the only battery in the ‘not eligible’ list). Then the strange ‘Extended Warning’.
Also, anecdotally, it’s the only Milwaukee battery that I’ve had fail. Never touched water, it was basically new, I’m sure most others would attest the same.
Not a big deal, probably the standard fare of a bad batch of cells (symptoms I saw suggested one or two dying cells in the pack, though I’m no expert). Milwaukee’s warranty was great as always and took care of it. It’s just interesting how they managed to avoid saying the batteries were flawed while internally they were clearly treating it as a pariah.
Collin
Whatever happened with the M18 9.0, I’m glad that Milwaukee engineers were able to communicate with Ryobi and Ridgid engineers and instruct them how to make 9.0 batteries that don’t have the same “thermal runaway” issues.
Collin
>I can tell you that, pandemic-related disruptions notwithstanding, they haven’t been resting on their laurels. They’re not twiddling their thumbs. They’re not biding their time.
Erm, Milwaukee is definitely resting on their laurels in many regards, one of them being the state of the M12 battery ecosystem.
As you mentioned yourself, 18650 power tool batteries are topping out at 2.5Ah per cell.
Milwaukee’s best selling M18 battery of all time is the XC5.0 pack, made with ten 18650 cells, each of which have a capacity of 2.5 amp-hours.
But why is M12 stuck with the CP2.0 pack? Why is M12 stuck with the XC4.0 pack??
Milwaukee obviously has no shortage of 2.5 Ah 18650’s, given that they’re bundling XC5.0’s with basically every tool that comes in a kit.
A CP2.5 would extend runtime by 25% over a CP2.0. 25% is not insubstantial by any means.
A XC5.0 would extend runtime by 25% over the XC4.0.
Same with the M18 ecosystem. Bosch has compact 4.0 battery that uses 21700 cells. DeWalt, too. But Milwaukee’s compact 21700 pack is stuck with at 3.0.
Speaking of 21700 cells–it’s clear that Milwaukee was NOT on top of their game and was NOT forward-thinking. They had to jump to 21700’s in part because of DeWalt’s game changing FlexVolt batteries, which really upped the ante in terms of wattage in handheld cordless tools.
Did you forget that Milwaukee had to retrofit a bunch of M18 tools to physically accept the 21700 M18 batteries?
Did you forget that a bunch of Milwaukee M18 tools become less ergonomic with the larger 21700 M18 batteries? Like on the impacts–the larger 21700 packs, even the CP3.0, sticks out past the collet, while the older 18650 packs would not stick out past the collet. And the M18 Rover light, where using a 21700 pack renders the magnets basically useless–as the battery, again, sticks out past the body of the light, where the magnets are?
Even Bosch, a minor player in power tools, had the engineering and design acumen and foresight to create 21700 battery packs with staggered cells, so that their 21700 cell packs would have basically the same length as their traditional 18650 cells. Milwaukee? Yeah, let’s just slap a bunch of 21700’s in a row in a battery pack and call it a day. Oh, wait, oops, that takes a bunch of our tools a few notches down in terms of ergonomics.
Big Richard
Milwaukee has M12 CP3.0, they don’t need M12 CP2.5. They also have M12 XC6.0, so they don’t need M12 XC5.0.
Collin
The point is: when was the last time you’ve seen a Milwaukee M18 tool bundled with a XC4.0 battery? It’s been years since the XC4.0 was relevant. Basically all M18 kits come with the XC5.0 which uses 2.5Ah 18650 cells. Marginally more capacity (20% more).
Which leads me to wonder why the Milwaukee, which has built its reputation on lithium ion technology, has not moved to using 18650 2.5Ah cells in its M12 tools. Which would provide a larger marginal increase in capacity (25% more).
It seems to me that Milwaukee could very well switch their default battery in many M12 toolkits from the CP2.0 to CP2.5 with a little to minimal increase in costs on their end–I don’t recall the switch from M18 XC4.0 to XC5.0’s upping the cost for M18 kits. But Milwaukee refuses.
It’s not really that big of a deal, but it’s definitely a curiosity for a company that rests a lot of their reputation on battery technology.
Ronny
M18 Brushless (non-Fuel) tools are still packaged with CP2.0 and XC4.0 batteries. They are mid-tier tools, so they get packaged with mid-tier batteries.
The XC5.0s are only packaged in M18 Fuel kits, and those are the only batteries that use 2.5 Ah cells. Compact Fuel kits still get the CP2.0, or some newer ones might get the High Output CP3.0.
As Big Richard said, they don’t need to. They could, but why add another set of batteries to the line that they don’t need to? If the CP2.0 and XC4.0 in M12 don’t do it for you, then they have a CP3.0 and XC6.0. There isn’t really a need for something in between.
Milwaukee isn’t pushing battery technology for their M12 tools – they’re pushing for compact, trade-specific tools with an ideal power-to-size ratio.
Stuart
Yes, they retrofitted several tools to fit larger HO batteries. But, at least it’s an option, rather than “sorry, tough luck.”
10 years ago, 18V toolmakers were first moving to 2Ah and 4Ah batteries. I don’t think anyone foresaw 21700 cells or pouch cells.
Several brands had to start over, such as Porter Cable and Kobalt, when they shifted to modern Li-ion slide-style battery packs. Those were big shifts.
Collin
In my estimation, Milwaukee is going to have to crack a bunch of eggs to make Omelettes.
My correct assessment of the tool world is that Milwaukee has a sizeable competitive advantage due to its impressive lineup of trade specific tools and excellent marketing. I recall hearing from the Den of Tools that DeWalt has over 2x the market share as Milwaukee, but we all know who the most rabid online fans are loyal to.
Milwaukee’s future however is going to be decided in part by how they can advance from their legacy battery tech. Nearly every other tool manufacturer has made improvements and advances in battery technology beyond sticking more cells in a pack and higher capacity cells in a pack. Milwaukee, on the other hand, has only had one “breakthrough” in the last several years and that was a mental breakthrough: M18 X2 tools.
It seems that TTI’s current focus is badge engineering. Looks like TTI is working hard at giving every product line a track saw, for example. And they’re working hard on capitalizing on their investments in Hoover and Dirt Devil, with a dozen new vacuums for both Ryobi and Milwaukee.
DeWalt used to be the king of badge engineering. Aren’t most Craftsman tools just older DeWalt tools painted red?
Now it seems that TTI is content to do the same, with their renewed focus on “pro-grade” tools for Ryobi. Admittedly, Ryobi tools are not the clones of last generation Milwaukee tools, as with Craftsman/DeWalt, but either way, it seems that the focus is on emptying the pockets of DIYers rather than pushing technological boundaries.
OldDominionDIYer
I guess you have to realize Milwaukee’s battery tech was already ahead of the competition so while other MFRs are catching up and perhaps a few may have some great new tech I’m totally comfortable with where they’re at today and I have absolutely no doubt they will have new battery tech when they’re sure it’s a big big step. They skipped the 20700 to go straight to the 21700 because the jump was more significant and while I’m keenly interested in what they will introduce next I can be patient while they keep pushing out all their new tools and accessories. I mean no one has grown their mobile storage system as fast or with the breadth of gear as Milwaukee with their Packout system, and now their new Shop Vacs and support gear is one of the biggest selections in the tool industry at the moment. Not to mention their big investment in both linemen tools and plumbing equipment. I think Stuart mentioned Milwaukee has indicated they will introduce a plethora of new and improved OPE so as I said I can be patient for now. I’m thinking a backpack style blower using M18 x2 with industry leading specs in on the horizon (hoping!)
Collin
I don’t see how Milwaukee’s battery tech was ahead. They all use the same Samsung cells, for the most part, across the major power tool manufacturers. The only real difference would lie inside the tool, with the motors, and the computer boards controlling the motors and monitoring the batteries.
Speaking of OPE:
Milwaukee’s gen 1 Fuel leaf blower was a joke, with Black&Decker specs and Black&Decker performance. I remember a Pro Tool Reviews article/shootout ranking the Milwaukee just ahead of the B&D in terms of blowing force. Their gen 2 Fuel leaf blower definitely upped the ante slightly. However, it is telling that the Makita 18 V leaf blower is actually MORE powerful than the Milwaukee’s 18 V leaf blower, despite the fact that Makita has no 21700 “high output” batteries in its 18 V line, and that Milwaukee does have access to high output batteries.
Milwaukee really needs to step up in their OPE department, in a major way.
Speaking of vacuums–lots of other brands have had cordless dust extractors for years. Milwaukee just now launched a line of cordless shop vacs that could theoretically be used to comply with OSHA Table 1. I guess better late than never, but it has been clear from the start that vacuums with table 1 compliant performance would require either AC outlets, higher voltage batteries, or dual batteries, as demonstarted by every other tool company out there with a cordless dust extractor, from Makita, to DeWalt, to Hilti.
Interestingly, the corded Milwaukee dust extractor appears to be a clone of the Flex (German) dust extractor.
Philip
Milwaukee HO is a bit of a joke. Some tools are okay. But for example the one inch impact the 14 in chop saw or the chainsaw. These tools go through bats like crazy. They also heat up cells and premature failure is likely. As many people state this happens . Not just me.
Collin
I really wonder how the Milwaukee lawn mower will fare. It’s supposed to have a 3 year warranty on everything: mower, batteries, and charger.
I doubt the batteries will make it to 3 years even with homeowner, much less “professional” use. The rapid charger, for one, isn’t fan cooled, unlike basically every other rapid charger in the industry. The 12.0’s already over heat and now they’ll be powering a mower in the middle of summer. Good luck with that.
OldDominionDIYer
Frankly I will be a bit surprised if Milwaukee hasn’t routed a bit of air flow up into the battery housing in their new lawn mower to assist with keeping the batteries cooler. I’m not a production/full time user I’m an Advanced DIYer but have had several opportunities to stress my Milwaukee tools and batteries (table saw, Super sawzall, blowers and trimmers as well as their chain saw. I have had one battery cut out on heat and it was a 5.0ah being used in my blower. I know I don’t represent contractors but I will say having observed many many “contractors” that there is a fine line between heavy use and abuse and might add that back in the corded tool days these same folks complained as they burned up corded tool so I don’t believe many of these tool/battery overload stories because they have likely crossed the line into abuse of the tool.
Philip
Can be true. But also it’s a range we deal with on batteries and the tool bit in the tool.
Example. Milwaukee rotor hammer at 1-3/4 max bit is a joke on battery performance.
There batteries require a lot of management.
Collin
For big rotary hammers I have heard that DeWalt’s FlexVolt line is the way to go.
Philip
We compare red to yellow. 2 top hi output players and one said high voltage not needed. Well there’s a big difference from m18 to 60v on comparable tools. Still love red too though
Mark
I think 2022 battery tech an advantage goes to Hilti with their new 22V platform. Simply amazing!
Philip
I have no issues with flexvolt.
Milwaukee Man
Everyone has the ability to Google what parents they have filed…leaving it at that.
JoeM
I’m starting to question the need to push Milwaukee or DeWALT any harder. Even if another company has them beat in Specs, the two giants have everyone else beat in sheer size, and depth of variety, for their lineups. For the next few years, all Milwaukee really has to do is point to their FuelMX line, and ask the competitor “Can your new toy do that? No? Okay, come back and complain when you have a real concern for us. We’re crossing into CAT’s territory now, potentially John Deere, and so is DeWALT. We’re Good. Enjoy your battery packs.”
We know for certain both Team Red and Team Yellow will definitely expand tools and chargers for their systems. I don’t believe anyone’s battery system innovation is going to phase Milwaukee. They have such an expansive lineup already, that introducing a new Battery would anger the people who have all those tools. There’s enough to bankrupt any independent contractor or tradesman who is forced to upgrade over a battery. DeWALT’s new battery (in the singular) is more anomaly than innovation. Without an expansion of its application, it’s just another 20V Max battery. Nothing that would trouble anyone to upgrade to, or try out.
Milwaukee coming out with yet-another revolution would be pretty economically suicidal. I would liken other brands’ “Innovations” to Don Quixote, tilting at Windmills, if they’re trying to take down, or rustle the feathers of, Milwaukee or DeWALT. For all the complaints we may have for those two companies, and the marketing tricks, release cycle teasing, and multiple lineups they produce… They’re still the top of the industry. If they felt threatened in any way, we’d see massive waves of product releases that completely outshine the competition as their response. Being that it has been relatively quiet from these two companies, I would have to presume that they both, rightfully, see these other companies’ attempts to gain traction in the market as little more than insects headed for their collective industry bug zappers.
Dust
Milwaukee (tti) has a patent on (I think 30%) silicon batteries. I saw it a little while ago on google patents. So yeah.
Ralph Bell
Pouch batteries run the risk of fire if they become distorted by heat, or if they get pinched or punctured. Knowing how rough most tools get treated, I personally would wait to make sure these issues have been worked out. As long as I have another fresh battery on the charger, I really don’t care if a competitor is squeezing out another Ah or two. It won’t justify reinvesting until some breakthrough comes along that is an undeniable game-changer. This isn’t it.
Stedman
I always thought the M12 battery platform would be next in power upgrade for Milwaukee. Seems the 6.0 , 4.0 etc is long in the tooth.
Milwaukee FTW
m12 has the same problem as m18 and have reached their peak.
though m12 still only uses 18650 cell batteries they could go HO with maybe 20700
Big Richard
They cannot go to larger cells like the 20700 or 21700 with M12 because they need the battery to fit in their handles. They are painted into a corner there. 12V systems with slide packs, like Makita or DeWalt, could go to 20700 or 21700 cells. At the moment Hilti is the only one I’m aware of that currently uses those large form cells in their 12v tools.
Doug N
Also Metabo (not HPT). They have a 12v 4ah battery with 21700 cells.
Collin
They could perhaps make a m12 battery with a 21700 in the stem and 2 more 21700s in the base.
Big Richard
That they could do, but a 6 cell 18650 battery, like the XC4.0 and XC6.0 would still be more powerful and roughly the same size (albeit slightly heavier). It just doesn’t seem like there would be enough of an advantage to ever offer something like that over their standard 3 cell CP or 6 cell XC batteries.
Ronny
They could but it wouldn’t make sense. There isn’t really a compelling reason to use 21700s with a 12-volt platform. The cells are physically larger and heavier. Going larger defeats the purpose of a 12-volt line – being light and compact. Pouch cells, on the other hand? They are light and would (at least in theory) be great for 12-volt batteries.
Stuart
@Ronny,
Pouch cells could run into size complications. In a stem form factor, 3x 18650 cells will likely continue to be the most space-efficient for a very long time. In a slide pack, higher capacity requires a rectangular surface area. A 1.7Ah battery would have to be as long and wide as the new 20V Max PowerStack battery, just a little shorter. I am convinced that 18650 cells will be the more compact higher capacity solution.
Nathaniel Morin
With the remarkable advancements in solid state cell tech, I wouldn’t be surprised if Milwaukee goes that route! Rediculously fast charge times and MONSTER draw potentials. To be honest I think that EVs are going to have to go this way to get the majority of consumers to jump ship on “dino juice”. So why not lead the charge, pun intended, on tool battery tech? I’ve been a Red guy for nearly two decades and if I’ve learned anything about Big Red it’s that they generally don’t come out with new stuff first but when they do, it’s head and shoulders over the competition. I’m anxious to see what comes next.
sim1
Pouch batteries have been the standard construction for about 20 years for most Li-ion chemistry cells. Dewalt hasn’t come up with anything new.
All they’ve done is remove the 18650 manufacturers from their supply chain, removed one layer of casing/protection, dropped a little bit of weight and focussed on numbers that make them look better, when in reality there is no increase in performance unless you divide the figures by weight.
The 1.8Ah pack isn’t a sprinter with lots of muscle, it’s a low capacity battery pack with thicker terminals that can bleed out all it’s power marginally faster.
Jeremiah
I have one thing to say here… Honda VTEC. The comparison here is that Gonda came out with this technology decades ago, and everyone has been playing catch-up ever since. Same with Audi Quatro. Heck, that was so freaking awesome that it was BANNED from the racing circuit because it was so good. Have either changed or abandoned those two pieces of technology? No, they just advance it and make it better.
Same can be said about Milwaukee and their tools and battery technology. They came out with the FUEL line and have been making it better every time they have another generation of tools. Like you said, these tools in the 12, and definitely the 18volt platforms punch way above their weight class and are just as capable or even better in many cases, against more powerful battery lines. Heck FLEX is a 24volt line right? And Milwaukee is either holding their own or actually beating them all the time.
A larger voltage battery doesn’t always mean better performance. I won’t use FLEX, because they are too heavy compared to my Milwaukee tools, plus they are a smoke show most of the time. But that’s a different story.
If it works, don’t fix it… just keep refining it and making it better.
Milwaukee tool has one of, if not The most expansive tool selection for professional and even the home owner/DIY level tools. Plus they are sold at a relatively competitive price when comparing to other like brands.
Will they change their battery and tool tech to “keep up with the Jonses”? I hope not. I only want upgrades to keep up with themselves.
Griff
What a load of garbage. The makita batteries are trash under pressure, the two battery tools are made unnecessarily heavy with a second battery for very little performance increase. Plus not to mention makita gear is trash, it doesnt last like Milwaukee and dewalt. As a chippie id never consider makita as my main line. I mean its even in their warranty. The only warrant their skins and batteries for half the time milwaukee will. Plus ive seen sooooooooo many makita batteries and duel chargers give up for next to no reason. Ill give dewalt credit for their flexvolt range. They perform exceptional well, tho dewalt were really lagging behind before they brought it out. As to your rip on milwaukee. You honestly only need the highout put batteries. They perform incredibly well and only dewalts flex volt range gives it a run for its money. In saying that the 12amphr and 9amphr batteries in the Milwaukee range are to big and heavy and are really only good in stationary tools with high power demands such as a drop saw. Your not clipping a 12amphr battery into your drills, or framer cause you are just lugging around extra weight for no reason. Ill also give milwaukee a good rap on the batteries lasting I have 5amphr batteries that ive been running daily for nearly 10yrs and theyre only recently starting to give up.
Michael
Which tool company is the most innovative or builds the best functioning tools is simply an opinion. We all have them and most are crap!
However, Milwaukee has the best performing and most innovative WARRANTY of all the brands. 5 year tool warranty is no joke. I have purchased non-working Milwaukee tools at garage sales and sent them in (with free shipping) and received a repair in 10 days. Even IF their tools had a track record of being crap, you are covered for 5 years! That is worth every penny of their exorbitant prices. There is very few companies that stand behind their products like this, tools or otherwise.
Andrew Roy
I wouldn’t worry about Milwaukee and where they go with battery tech.
It turns out that a “little known company” named TTI is the patent holder for “Pouch Style” Lithium ion batteries.
https://patents.justia.com/inventor/wing-keung-woo
Where have I heard that name before?
Oh yes ! TTI owns Milwaukee, Ryobi, Rigid, Hart tools, etc.
So, yaw. Milwaukee may not have a pouch style battery right now but, if these cells end up being successful, they will have one soon. If they are not successful then the other major brands will suffer the consequences and not Milwaukee.
Well played TTI. Well played.
Big Richard
Any updates on their new FORGE batteries? Sounds like their latest 1/2″ high torque is designed around them to get max torque. I assume they are pouch battery style, but I can’t confirm that. Thoughts?
Stuart
I haven’t heard anything about this yet.
Big Richard
Bummer. Well maybe if/when they announce a 2023 Pipeline event we will learn more. Last year it was in August, seems like that will not be the case this year though.
Andrew W. Roy
Milwaukee, rather TTI, actually holds the patents on most tool
Battery technology, stacked lithium pouches included.
For decades all the tool companies have been paying royalties on every battery pack they sell to TTI. Milwaukee has plenty of time to sit back and patent the next major innovation before trying to play “catch-up” to the other tool
Companies…they are just fine.
Big Richard
I know TTI owns Milwaukee, but it was specifically Milwaukee that had the patent on “multi-cell” lithium batteries. And I know they sued a bunch of companies for using multi-cell lithium batteries, but I don’t know the outcome of those suits. I find it hard to believe every company on the planet that makes lithium battery powered devices is giving them a percent, but I suppose it is possible.
You are right though, they are fine and will continue to be fine and don’t need to play catch up. But, a more powerful and high capacity pouch cell battery that can compete with higher voltage platforms right now, all while still subscribing to their “M18 Everything Fits” narrative, would certainly be of interest to them. They sorta relented a bit by going to 2xM18 with some recent tools, but I digress.