Milwaukee’s Pipeline 2023 media event is now over.
It will take me some time to sort things out and provide more details about everything that I saw and learned.
Readers had some great questions, and I wanted to briefly answer as many of them as possible.
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What can you tell us about the FORGE battery line?
Forge will be the higher performance tier of Milwaukee cordless power tool batteries.
Technologies will be mixed. For instance, yes, the new M18 Forge XC 6Ah battery will be built with pouch cells, while the MX Fuel Forge batteries and the M18 Forge 12Ah battery (slated for the later half of 2024 if I recall correctly) will be engineered with next-gen tab-less cylindrical cells.
The tab-less battery tech is new to me, but seems promising.
Not only that, the endurance level of Forge batteries are taken to the next-level, such as with rapid cooldown capabilities via the new Super Charger.
It’s going to take me time to ensure I have the details correct, and I’m happy to field more questions in the meantime.
“Tabless” batteries? Seems like Milwaukee took a very incremental approach to providing higher output M18 batteries.
Not really. As I understand it, tab-less is a better solution here.
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Pouch cells are an option, but the tab-less cylindrical cells in the higher capacity upcoming Forge batteries deliver performance, endurance, and thermal dissipation that batter match users’ demands.
There are engineering and user experience reasons why the 12Ah Forge battery is built with these new cells over Li-ion pouch cells.
Are the FORGE batteries their version of pouch cells?
Forge will not be tied to any specific Li-ion battery cell technology.
The new Milwaukee M18 Forge 6Ah battery is said to deliver the same power level as their current High Demand High Output (HD HO) 12Ah battery.
Can the brushless rotary tool pretty much use anything made for a dremel?
Yep! I’m told there is full collet and accessory compatibility.
Will the updated/new mechanics tools be made in the USA?
No. But… nearly everything is on the table right now.
I spoke with a few decision-makers to see what is and is not on the table right now.
USA-made mechanics tools are not something Milwaukee is actively developing right now – at least that’s the story and I believe it – but they are not done exploring options.
That power bank is technically a packout base, isn’t it?
* Witty response *
I liked the Packout integration – it made sense.
Any updates on launch timing and estimated runtime with whatever batteries they tested it with would be greatly appreciated, especially if it’s available for say both a table saw and a standard refrigerator.
I have a press kit in my inbox, and interview Q&A on video. Most of the products we saw today are slated for release before the end of the year.
Whereas Milwaukee’s power tool batteries are engineered with power cells, the Roll-On is engineered with energy cells, similar to what’s being used in the EV industry.
There are 2 duplex receptacles, each with 2 outlets for 4 total.
The unit can deliver sustained power of 3600W, and higher peak power. So that’s 2x 15A simultaneous load at 120V.
What is “Nitrus” carbide?
High longevity carbide saw blade teeth.
Hope you can ask why they don’t offer a wheeled packout drawer base like ridgid just announced.
Oh, I did. Short answer: they’re working on it.
The M12 Fuel Insider Extended Reach Box Ratchet has piqued my interest. Is it like a powered pass through ratchet?
Yes.
I want to be part of the power bank Seed program. Can it take any mix of batteries
It has a built-in battery that *will* be replaceable via service center.
So, the new Packout is a 4 drawer system? Still only one set of dividers included?
Each Milwaukee Packout drawer tool box will now ship with a full set of dividers for every drawer.
Any More Questions?
Please keep them coming!
See Also:
Chris
I’m really happy to see a brushless rotary tool. But I am disappointed it’s not a FUEL model. I’m not sure if it’s something I’d buy, even though I’ve been asking for it every year. I just don’t use my dremel 4300 a whole lot. But it’s nice to see Milwaukee listened and delivered a brushless model. That’s really cool.
Stuart
It looked to have an abundance of power. If you need more, you could step up to M12 Fuel die grinder territory.
A Fuel version would require a different motor and electronics, affecting the size and price point.
For rotary tools, it’s best to let the speed do the work, and so non-Fuel brushless should suffice.
(I inquired about some of the differences between Fuel and non-Fuel brushless at dinner, and the distinction became clearer to me.)
Jared
That’s new to me. I hope you can flesh that out a bit more at some point. I just assumed “fuel” was a marketing term Milwaukee used to denote their higher-tier brushless tools. I didn’t know it was tied to any particular technology.
Stuart
I believe it’s akin to V8 vs V4. You can put a V8 in a V4 car. But then you might need to upgrade some components and reinforce others, and by the time you’re done, you have a clunky contraption that doesn’t make sense for driving half a mile on a flat paved road to the library.
Harrison
It’s easy to look at the ‘Fuel’ lineup and assume it’s simply a marketing trademark for Milwaukee’s brushless tech, but it’s not quite that simple.
‘Fuel = flagship” is more accurate, and in addition I believe it is supposed to imply ‘Class Leading’.
Milwaukee designs and positions all of their Fuel tools such that they can be marketed as ‘the best’ of their category- be it power, capacity, depth of cut, etc. Fuel models are always the ‘biggest and baddest’, even if that comes with some trade-offs.
(Ex: Their 7 1/4 circular saws are slow AF compared to their 36 and 60v competitors, but can still claim to be the ‘most powerful 18v saws on the market’.)
Any premium tool that can’t practically be marketed as ‘most powerful in class’ due to size or weight considerations, is preferably demoted from 18v down to M12 Fuel as not to dilute ‘M18 Fuel most powerful 18v System’ marketing.
If that’s not practical due to already being 12v, or the design must remain 18v, they simply call it ‘Brushless’.
It’s honestly genius as far as marketing goes, it’s easy to see why some people refer to Milwaukee as ‘The Apple of Tools’.
Stuart
You seem to think of Fuel as a competitive or flagship marketing descriptor for Milwaukee’s brushless tech, but it’s not that simple either.
Forget about marketing or competitive marketing.
From a product design and development standpoint, a tool’s Fuel or simply “brushless” designation starts with its motor design, which also determines the electronics and control package.
Milwaukee launched an M12 planer earlier this year – https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/milwaukee-m12-cordless-planer-2524/%3C/a%3E .
It’s advertised as being “the most powerful 12V planer on the market.”
But it’s not an M12 Fuel tool.
Milwaukee cannot or will not slap an M12 FUEL label on the tool just because it’s the most powerful planer in its class.
Whether it’s a Fuel tool or not is dependent on its core components.
For the new brushless rotary tool too, it’s not a Fuel tool, and it cannot be described as such, regardless of how it might be marketed against competing models or otherwise.
For it to be a Fuel tool, its design and internal components must be different.
There are tangible differences between M12 brushless and M12 Fuel PowerState brushless motors.
Franco Calcagni
Aug 10, 2023
I have the M12 die grinder. With the M12 batteries, it had a nice form factor and was a great tool to use, until it died. It suffers from the 4 flashing light syndrome. Not sure what happened exactly, but read online that there have been a few of the die grinders this happens to, and when it does, they are toast.
I think I had found a YT video that looked into taking it apart to find the issue. I don’t recall if he could not find the problem or it was a complicated fix.
Anyway, great tool when it worked…then didn’t.
JoeM
I have the Dremel 8260 Brushless Rotary. It’s new, so it hasn’t had nearly enough testing from me to judge. But, having ownership of its predecessor, the 8200 still, I can easily say that the form factor of having a battery that fits the shape of the body comes in extremely handy when you have to hang the tool, and use a flex shaft. Or simply use what is called “The Golf Grip” on the whole tool. That flat, square battery on the photos I saw of the Milwaukee rotary do trouble me. The form factor of those batteries, no matter how capable those batteries are, can potentially get in the way of its full usage.
Far from thinking it’s a total failure, I think it really is likely to be an incredibly capable tool. But I would keep an eye out for complaints about the battery getting in the way. I’m pretty sure Milwaukee can, and will, make a battery more suited to the rotary tools, the way that Dremel/Bosch has theirs arranged. It’s a tried-and-true format, and I trust Milwaukee enough to figrue out an equivalent line of batteries for this level of brushless tool. Extremely powerful batteries, in a stem/magazine form for use in both the Rotary Tools, as well as the Die Grinders. Rotary for precision, Die Grinders for both speed of the task, and for mass of material being used.
I will say though… Welcome to the Rotary Tool Family, Milwaukee! The more of your ilk that joins Dremel/Bosch, Ryobi, Proxxon, and Foredom, the better! I would absolutely love to see Milwaukee make an entire system of attachments, to match, or surpass, the durability of Dremel’s variety. Plus, with Milwaukee’s new Forge batteries, perhaps a battery stem adapter can be used to increase the available torque of a rotary tool? Torque is the #1 complaint that rotary tool first-timers have. They want the cut to go faster, so they push harder, requiring more torque, which in turn burns out the tool faster. Rotary Tools are speed tools. They actually do their jobs at high speed by barely touching anything, rather than pushing on it. The raw speeds of the accessories do more work. But in Milwaukee’s hands? I think we may see one of the first High-Torque Rotary Tools to be available. So, I welcome Milwaukee to this avenue of the tool community. Die Grinders have always been higher torque, but to have something that can do both? I welcome it.
Harrison
Do the new forge batteries have some sort of duct in them for air cooling? How does the ‘Rapid Cool down’ ability work? Are they just leaning on the higher amperage capacity of the new cells?
Most of the other brands have a fan in their rapid chargers that blows air into the cells. It seems gimmicky on the face of it, but it does noticeably help bring a hot battery down to room temp and begin charging in about 5-10 minutes.
In my experience, an overheated 12Ah high output tends to sit on the charger for 30-60 minutes depending on conditions before it can even think of charging. Very frustrating, hopefully the new cells avoid the overheating in the first place.
Stuart
Forge pouch? No, if you see what looks like vents, those are weep holes.
The inner contents are sealed against water ingress by a special coating process.
Forge tabless batteries (MX Fuel and pending M18 Fuel 12Ah) will have air vents. The new chargers will flush air through the batteries, rapidly cooling them down to minimize the downtime before and during charging.
That’s party of the reason the new 12Ah will feature tabless cylindrical cells rather than pouch, as it allows for the rapid thermal flush.
Batteries will heat up during use, and the thermal management determines how quickly and to what levels.
The phrase “duty cycle” was used in a ~10pm conversation, and it seems to fit perfectly. The next 12Ah battery was designed for high endurance and demanding duty cycle, allowing users to take the battery back and forth through heavy use and super charging without skipping a beat.
Harrison
That’s great news, the absence of active battery cooling on the current super chargers was holding them back unnecessarily.
Glad to hear they are focusing on duty cycle, that was one aspect of their tech that was not there for high demand tools.
Jared
Do you think this new battery tech will help Milwaukee achieve a new tier of 18v battery performance and achieve flexvolt/multivolt competitiveness?
E.g. my non-expert impression is that Milwaukee is brushing up against the 18v performance limit despite trying to engineer batteries that handle ever greater discharge rates (hence complaints about the giant packs overheating). If Milwaukee is going to stick with 18v no matter what (and not jump to 18v x2, for example), is the hope that tabless and pouch cells are the answer?
Stuart
I believe they think it will push performance to new heights.
We don’t know what the next technology beyond this will be.
To be frank, I was surprised. I thought that pouch cells were the future, and while it could be, it will be just a part of things.
Robert
Don’t feel bad. There are so many different electric power storage approaches in universities and high tech companies across the world, it’s very hard to predict which will prove practical and manufacturable. But there are such huge incentives to the winners that immense effort will continue to be devoted. You may not recognize the new tool “batteries” of a decade from now, they could be so different.
Steve
Are there any test to back up the claim that the Forge 6.0’s offer the same power levels as the current 12.0’s? If the Forge 6.0 has this same level of power, why wouldn’t they call it a 12.0? Something doesn’t add up to me…
neandrewthal
You’re comparing power to capacity.
Stuart
Consider putting a V8 engine in V4 sedan. That sedan will now have the power to haul a heavier load, but its gas tank is unchanged.
6Ah is the charge capacity – the size of the gas tank. It can power more demanding loads that the current 12Ah might be most efficient for, but with the lower charge capacity.
So, with the Forge 6Ah vs non-Forge 6Ah, the Forge will deliver more power with greater ease and endurance.
Have you ever driven up a steep incline and felt the car slow down? A more powerful engine can more easily handle a steeper incline. On a long flat road, the power doesn’t matter and gas tanks of the same size will take you the same distance.
Making a heavy cut with a circular saw, for example, should make the differences clearer, where the current 6Ah might be taxed greater than the Forge. The slower or more lightly a battery is taxed, the more it can do.
Collin
I’ve seen you refer to “V4” engines twice in the last week or so. Just wanted to point out that V4 engines basically don’t exist in general. 4 cylinder engines are generally inline or more rarely, in an boxer configuration. I4 or H4 would be more appropriate.
Karl
The Yamaha VMAX would like to have a word with you. :). But, yeah, pretty much no V4’s in cars but we get the author’s analogy just the same.
Rx9
While I agree with your contention that I4 would be more appropriate due to the preponderance of I4 engines in the automotive world, there are indeed V4 engines in current serial production, and there are a few cars which have used this engine configuration in the past. That said, the only example of a modern V4 engine I can think of offhand is in the Ducati Panigale motorcycle.
Stuart
Most people should understand the spirit of V8 vs V4 without knowing whether there’s an actual V4 configuration.
V4 exists in LEGO, and some V6 or V8 engines have V4 modes where cylinders are deactivated for more economical gas consumption. =)
Analogies don’t have to be real, they just have to be clear.
For example, let’s say you’re driving north on the interstate at 50 MPH and another car is traveling south at 40 MPH. How fast do they appear to be going from your relative frame of reference as you pass them? 90 MPH.
Now let’s say you’re driving north at 500,000,000 mph, and they are driving south at 400,000,000 mph. How fast do they appear to be going from your relative frame of reference? 900,000,000 mph? No, because it would be faster than the speed of light and violate the laws of physics.
Can a car drive that fast? Do we have hovercrafts or spacecrafts that can travel that fast? Can anything with mass move that fast? In atmosphere?
In the context of hypotheticals and analogies, greater realism generally doesn’t improve comprehension or understanding. In these contexts, referencing inline cylinder engines would have made the analogies more clunky.
Collin
I just stick to 8 cyl and 4 cyl if using engine sizes as analogies
TomD
Will NOT ship? Or NOW ship? For the last question.
Stuart
Thank you – sorry about that! *fixed*
They will ALL *NOW* ship with a full set of dividers. The cost will be a little higher, but users’ preferences have been made clear.
Jason
What happened to the snow blower promised last year
Stuart
They’re still working on it? We didn’t get a clear ETA.
Mxx
Are they implementing dual voltage batteries and tools, say 36 V, where tool and battery communicate and switch to higher voltage, otherwise default 18v?
Stuart
No. It was made clear that compatibility is the top priority. There are some new dual battery tools.
The goal is to keep plowing through technological ceilings and obstacles with 18V. Voltage is half of the power equation. As I understand it, Forge is enabling them to knock down the same barriers to higher power delivery as switching to a higher voltage form factor.
Mxx
Compatibility would be maintained. New tool can operate in 36 or 18 V, new battery can operate in 36 or 18 V, older tool is 18 V only, older battery is 18 V only.
Through red link communication, when battery is inserted, tool and battery figure out what voltage they want to operate at and switch accordingly. For example an older 18 V tool with a newer 36 V battery would operate at 18 V, and a newer 36 V tool with an older 18 V battery would operate at 18 V. Accordingly, a newer 36 V tool with a 36 V capable battery would operate at 36 V, delivering higher voltage but less current, running cooler, extending M18 but not treading on MX.
fred
With their pass-through ratchet, it looks like Milwaukee will be selling sockets and/or socket sets to match. I see an SAE set listed and Acme also lists individual metric sockets and adapters.
https://www.acmetools.com/milwaukee-insider-box-ratchet-socket-sae-set-8pc-49-16-1640/045242771721.html
Too bad they did not design it to allow pass-through for smaller sizes to allow it to be used to runup nuts on threaded rod. But maybe that would have added to the bulk of the head.
Stuart
What do you mean? The sockets are hollow to allow for pass-thru to an extent. They ran into a limit with higher sizes where the head size would have been compromised too much.
fred
My bad. My old eyes saw them as all having a solid drive shaft.
When I look at the old SK pass through and Gearwrench Vortex hand sockets – it seems easier to see the pass-through feature.
Big Richard
Here is a good video of it from its secret pre launch last month where you can see the sockets better – https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ld8bwSMOiMI
fred
Thanks – I’ll pass it on to my ex-compatriots.
Rx9
Thanks for the link. This answers my next question, which is whether or not this pass through system is compatible with the design used by gearwrench and a few others. Apparently the answer is no.
Still, this is an exciting development.
Chris
Man, that forge battery labeling is unfortunate. The moment I saw it, I thought of all the knockoff batteries amazon tries to hawk.
https://www.amazon.com/DEWQKI-Replacement-Compatible-48-11-1820-48-11-1812/dp/B0BZ3N86NZ
Maybe it’s the red strips they added…
Luke
I thought the same thing! Something about it just screamed knockoff the second I saw it (and a day later it’s still screaming knockoff). I’m usually a big fan of their design and marketing but I think they missed the mark here. Maybe it’s the absence of the gray swoop along the bottom, or the small/de-emphasized XC 6.0 compared to the giant FORGE, or honestly just the scattered font alignment… the whole design just feels like something a cheap chinese knockoff would put out.
Scott F
x3
Collin
FORGERY batteries
FORGED batteries
Jeff Barnes
When will Packout be available for any brand to use? Imagine if all my tools regardless of brand came in a Packout and could have customizable colors and logos like you can do with Tanos systainer. I want Packout to be industry standard.
Jeff
Will we be getting an M18 installation driver?
Wally
Sad to learn the 18ga M12 powered finish nailer max out with a 1-1/2″ fastener. The size is so desirable. Wont be doing much if any base and window trim over wallboard with it unless using an adhesive
Stuart
It seems to me that a larger nail drive systems would require everything to be scaled up a bit.
The M18 Fuel goes to 2-1/8”.
neandrewthal
Construction is highly regional, but in areas I’ve worked we don’t really use brad nails longer than 1 1/2″ for casing to jamb conections. We use 2″ 16 ga nails for trim over wallboard, and 2 1/2″ 15 ga for setting doors. Kind of makes it easy. 3 guns, 3 sizes of nail.
BrianA
Why do the Forge batteries look like the crappy branding you find on the cheap knockoffs sold on eBay LOL
Victor
Why doesn’t Milwaukee have a Packout single slide out drawer… just a single large drawer? Are they working on it?
I know the Packout Cabinet exist but it’s not the same design as the other 2, 3 and now the 4 Drawers Packouts.
I just understand why they don’t have a single slide out drawer. 🥲
Stuart
If there are enough requests, it could happen!
Victor
How do we request this to Milwaukee? Is there a link for product request? Thank you 😊
Jonathan R Alligood
I agree, i’m 6foot 1 and I have the 2 and 3 drawer packout drawers on the roller base with a small parts organizer, and a work top. it’s perfect for my labtop in the shop. but I always thought man a single drawer would be soooo good.
Blythe
“There are 2 duplex receptacles, each with 2 outlets for 4 total“
Just a picky semantics correction, a duplex receptacle has 2 plugs by definition, so this phrase is a bit redundant
MKY
Common usage describes “plug” as the device attached to the end of a cord and is inserted into a receptacle.
Frank D
OMG, they listened?
Every PackOut Drawer will have dividers!
They should have done that from the get-go really. So much more customer friendly. Now I just need to wait another month or two to buy the extra dividers ( OOS / backordered ) that mine did not have.
Jay
You said the packouts will now come will dividers for every drawer – will the existing 2 and 3 drawer packouts start shipping with more dividers or is this change just for the new products?
Stuart
Yes, the existing 2- and 3-drawer Packout tool boxes will ALSO ship with dividers for each drawer. As I understand it, the pricing will be adjusted slightly.
Daniel Julian
How does the new super charger compare to the existing? I know the new one is dual m18 and the existing does m18 and m12… but other than that, what else is different?
Rx9
Thanks for answering my question, Stuart.
I’m excited about the forge batteries, and from what I can see, it looks like Mikwaukee’s method of gaining more power from an 18v platform is by continually increasing the current capacity of its best batteries.
It makes sense, as after all, we use mere 12v car batteries (with loads of cranking amps) to start those heavy gas engines.
I’ve noticed that some of the better cylindrical cells on the market are rated for some extremely high discharge currents. For instance, Molicel’s P45B 21700 cell is good for an outstanding 45 amps.
I wonder what the per cell current rating in the Forge batteries will be.
Jronman
Did I see the new Nitrus carbide blades are StarLock compatible?
jamanjeval
I wish Milwaukee would put a “storage mode” on the chargers that would be set to stop charging at the optimum state for storing the batteries just like how they come out of the box. Also, enable the chargers to give more information about the batteries.
I have 2x 6AH M12 that will now only charge in one of 6 chargers and error out in the others (bad battery? bad chargers? who knows. They used to charge in any M12 charger), a 9AH M18 that wont ever charge fully (its always one bar down. Is the LED bad or the battery?) and 2x 5AH M18 that wont charge at all and both died around the same time as each other for no apparent reason (similar problem to the M12 or is it the batteries that actually died?) All the problems seem to be with whatever are/were the high capacity batteries (the 5ah and 9ah were the largest at the time)
I’ve held off on buying any of the OPE, like the mower, because I don’t want to have $500 worth of 12AH batteries that just stop working for no apparent reason and no way to optimally store them off season.
Dave
Make sure you are storing them fully charged, not in the dead state. If the voltage gets below the minimum set on the charger, they won’t charge and will blink red/green.
jamanjeval
They charge fine (the two 6AH M12 batteries) on only ONE of my 6 chargers. They blink red/green on all the rest.
My point is the highest capacity batteries (in terms of highest capacity for when they were new) are the most fragile and defect prone.
And yes, I’ve never let them sit fully discharged. None of my batteries have gone bad like that. When I’ve had a problem, it’s with pairs of batteries. Both 5AH M18, Both 6AH M12. (I only have one 9AH M18)
Josh H
With more and more EV’s coming into the market, is Milwaukee looking into producing any more insulated hand or power tools? It looks like they already have some insulated screwdrivers, but having more ratchets, torque wrenches, and pliers would be nice to add some competition.
It’d be great too if they could develop some workwear for working on EV components that isn’t so bulky. More usable safety equipment is always a win!
Stuart
I don’t know anything about insulated power tools, but that’s a big YES to more insulated hand tools.
Insulated screwdrivers and pliers are on the way! I haven’t anything about insulated workwear, but will keep in mind to ask when I can.
Curtis Scott
Is there a central location to get product estimated release dates?? Are the release dates different in the US and Canada?
Stuart
Not yet. I don’t know if/how USA and Canadian release dates might differ on a per-tool basis.
Ben
I realize I’m super late to the game on this article. But I’d be interested to know if Milwaukee provided any more details about the engineering behind the controlled-torque impacts. On their website, they’re saying “… torque control overcomes common variances seen on the jobsite, maintaining target torque better than competitive products that use blow counting algorithms. This performance is enabled by new to world sensors designed in-house by Milwaukee Tool that feed sophisticated machine learning algorithms. Every trigger pull is recorded, and data can be downloaded for customizable reporting to ensure confident installation.” I assume they can’t say much about the sensors or machine-learning processes, but if they did, I’d love to know more – e.g. can you get within 10% of a target torque value consistently? 5%? 1%?