Milwaukee Tool’s Pipeline 2024 new tool media event is over. Milwaukee showed off their “next breakthrough” solutions in the cordless power tool space, and so much more, and wow was it amazing.
Shown above is a quick photo I took of Milwaukee’s new M18 Fuel circular saw brushless motor. It might not seem like it, but this motor is a big deal.
This is the most power-dense brushless motor Milwaukee Tool has ever made.
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Each new product is the sum of its parts, but we often don’t get to see or learn about all of those separate pieces. The brushless motor component shown above is just one part of one new tool, and it’s also so much more than that.
We’ll get into finer details another time. For now, what you need to know is that, compared to the motor for the preceding model, this new circular saw brushless motor is smaller and more powerful. I’ll need to check my recordings, but I’m pretty sure I was told it’s also more efficient.
This motor required considerable cost and effort for Milwaukee Tool to develop and build.
You’re going to see news and conversations about Milwaukee’s new M18 Fuel cordless circular saw, and I want you to understand that multiple innovations made that possible.
Milwaukee has raised the ceiling of what they can do with an M18 cordless power tool battery, and this new motor is part of the scaffolding.
The new circular saw features a more powerful and more compact motor, new power transistors that were co-developed by Milwaukee Tool and a semiconductor partner, additional improvements to power delivery, and it was also designed for maximum performance with the new M18 FORGE 12Ah battery.
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Multiple engineering and development paths converge to make the new circular saw possible, and those paths don’t end at this one destination.
Milwaukee’s competitors are going to take one look at this motor, and I think two things will happen. I think competitors’ engineers are going to throw their hands in the air and wonder what it will take for them to catch up, and I think the number-crunchers are going to panic about how much it’s going to cost them to do that.
While competing tool brands start looking for ways to match what this motor can do, Milwaukee’s already working on a new generation of cordless power tools that leverage – and possibly further build upon – the motor they developed here.
In the image above, you see a motor. What I see, and learned extensively about this week, is new foundational knowledge, reinforced by other new developments, that’s paving Milwaukee Tool’s pathway to the future. And further down that road, oh the things we will see.
Chris
I don’t think Milwaukee wrote this for you and I don’t think you would compromise your readers trust by writing a disguised ad in plain sight.
But the way you wrote this feels so fantastical. Like we are about to be taken on a journey and Milwaukee is going to guide us into the tool future.
It’s probably because there are no raw numbers to compare, but it feels like it’s just going to be another performance bump (which I appreciate) and not much else. The existing saws can already cut anything with enough time and the correct blade selection. The only thing a more powerful motor can do is potentially decrease cut times.
You mentioning the incredible cost and effort also makes me think this may be the most expensive saw to date. Their tools are already some of the most expensive on the market at this point. Maybe I’m just getting fatigued at the sales jargon that will ultimately only mean a 5-15% performance bump (under ideal conditions) but a 20-30% price increase. It’s getting to be just like the GPU market (and plenty others) where we pay a lot for a little.
Fowler
The writing style makes me think that there has to have been some sort of in-person testing or embargoed test data that indicates that this really is a big change.
The application where I could see myself being interested in this motor is for working in a small space and wanting small but very capable tools. My Metabo HPT 6 1/2 saw is fairly slow and bogs down pretty easily, but I still like it because it’s one of the smallest saws I’ve used. If they could get something that small with the power of a bigger saw I think they’d really be onto something.
I also think it’ll be interesting to see if more efficient motors allow people to do more with smaller batteries. An impact wrench that can get as much power on a 3Ah battery as a current wrench can get with a 6Ah would really reduce the pressure for home users to buy larger batteries
will
for wrenches, have you tried the new dewalt 12v impacts? ridiculous output for what they are
patrick
I saw they have a new m12 stubby impact with a staggering 500 ‘nutbusting tq’. makes me wonder if a new big boy m18 high tq is on the way too
Stuart
They just came out with a new M18 Fuel high torque impact last September. I doubt they’ll be updating it for a while.
Munklepunk
This is why I really like the Makita subcompact circular saw. It’s tiny and has power. I think people skip it because it’s right blade. But Makita did right by this thing.
MM
I agree, there’s an awful lot of flowery language in this article but not one statistic. The entire article could be summed up in one sentence: Milwaukee says they have a radical new motor design that promises big improvements but there’s no hard data on it yet. Or perhaps “I’m not allowed to tell you about it” would be more accurate?
In my opinion the performance gains could be very significant. Decreasing cut time is important, not just for efficiency but also comfort and safety. Suppose you’re ripping some sheet material and you have to lean quite far forward to get enough reach to complete the cut. Wouldn’t it be nice if you could reach for a 5-second cut instead of 10? Same if you’re working on a ladder or under a car in some wierd position. If you can get the cut made or the hole drilled that much faster you’re putting less strain on your body. But without any substance–numbers–this is just useless fluff. I hope Fowler is correct and there are numbers to back this up and they are merely embargoed currently. The tech has promise but I could do with less marketingspeak and more proof of claims.
Stuart
I am heavily sleep-deprived and lack the capacity to moderate how thoughts go from brain to keyboard.
I have reported on countless “break throughs” and “game changers” over the years. There are always innovations.
This time, they showed the tip of the iceberg, and I can see what’s underneath, or at least I like to think I can.
It’s a radical redesign with huge implications. I would hesitate to even call it a redesign, it’s more impressive sideways thinking.
Barriers have been knocked down.
It’s like looking at a mosaic, but one where they show you a couple of pieces.
I can usually see part of the picture. With these, my imagination extended the mosaic, if that makes sense.
Or consider it x-ray vision if you will. I can see through the obvious walls they sought to knock down here, and there are other walls with clues behind them.
I benefited from being able to learn about the new FORGE batteries a week ago, in preparation for an on-site interview/podcast opportunity the day before Pipeline.
They showed me the motor then. I had more time to ask questions, and then yesterday I had more time to ask MORE questions. I also had a running start at understanding tabless cell tech.
I had started thinking that the age of massive advancements was over, and that we were at an iterative stage. I called this the golden age for cordless power tools.
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/golden-age-of-cordless-power-tools/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
It seemed like cordless power tool brands put on their sweatpants, a comfy t-shirt, and were lounging around.
From with what I saw, and the answers I received to questions I wouldn’t be able to ask in any way other than face to face…
Milwaukee has some slick new sneakers and athletic wear, and they’ve been training for 2 years for a marathon I thought was over.
It’s going to force competing brands back to the race.
I was impressed by what this motor can do. I was impressed by what all of the supporting developments and innovations can do.
But was excited me, to the point of – in your words – sounding fanatical, is knowing what *else* this tech has the potential for.
I see the scaffolding, I see the platform they built on top of the new tech, and I can imagine what some of the next tools will look like. If I’m right about even some of them, many of you will share my same excitement.
I started this post in the middle of the night, and finished it in the morning just after the sun woke me up.
Could I have written this differently? Sure. Should I have? I don’t think so.
You deserve my raw thoughts and feelings, and I deserve the opportunity to share them.
I’m standing here in the airport terminal, about to take a flight home, and I’m worried about how many comments I’ll want or need to respond to once I land.
20 something years ago, I chose science over engineering. I saw engineering as trying to build “incrementally better toasters,” and convinced myself science was a more suitable field.
Milwaukee Tool and other tool brands showed me what engineering is really about, and it’s a big part of what made ToolGuyd FUN. Recently, it seemed that breakthrough engineering and advancement had slowed, and we were starting to see more “slightly improved toasters.” What I saw and learned about this week, both in terms of what I can show and tell you about, and from the MANY side conversations, I am gleeful about being wrong.
Pipeline is over, and it’ll take me a couple of days to catch up on sleep. Ask me then if I changed my mind. I’ll likely give you a more tempered answer, but I don’t see my sentiments changing.
There’s going to be a LOT to post about, and being able to express my excitement HERE means I can get back to objective details. My excitement had to go somewhere. So in a sleep deprived excited state, I put them here. Readers will understand, or they won’t.
We can continue the conversation later, but right now I need some breakfast before I board my plane.
Chris
Well, I’m glad to see your excitement is an ongoing thing and I will let that sway my misgivings for now.
To clarify, I did not say you were fanatical. I said fantastical or whimsical implying that it may be too good to be true (marketing always tends to do that, so my skepticism radar is always pinged based on how things are worded. Hence the lack of numbers setting off my initial comment/thoughts).
I don’t believe you are a fanatic based on your coverage of tools from all brands in an honest light in the past.
I look forward to what we learn about these innovations.
Stuart
I know that raw excitement can sound fanatical.
As for numbers, I have a bunch! Lots of objective discussion to come.
Bonnie
I think a lot of us would have preferred you wait and take some time to put those numbers in here rather than a sleep-deprived ramble that *sounds* a lot like the Influencer jargon you’ve often pointed at as a problem with modern tool marketing and coverage.
Alexk
I’m enjoying your excitement and looking forward to reading later posts.
After over ten years reading almost every post on toolguyd, I feel very comfortable with my trust in this site and you, Stuart. You haven’t shied away from talking about the business side of this site, and I’ve never read anything that made me think you were shilling a product for money. And I was born in Brooklyn!! My BS radar is finely tuned.
ToolGuyDan
As Chris said, and then clarified a second time, he didn’t say “fanatical”. He said “fantastical”. That’s a big difference and you seem to have ignored it once by mistake, and then this time, it’s hard—short of attributing it to autocorrect—to see it as not being deliberate, which is way out of character for you.
Look, a big part of the reason why influencer fluff crapspeak is so annoying (“MIND-BLOWING GAME-CHANGER BLOWS UP TOOL INDUSTRY; NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME”) is that it taps into what someone actually *would* say in certain circumstances. An electric drill versus a bit-brace? Yep, that’s worthy of that headline. But influencers have cheapened it, and so when we see it from you, our cynical tendencies come out.
This article, for all that it is tagged “editorial”, is uncharacteristically vague. Using your own scale from a later comment, this feels a lot closer to 1 (“just tell readers what we want you to tell them”) than it does 10 (“we want to help you understand our products, no strings attached”). It’s the article equivalent of calling support and getting the receptionist instead of the engineer. What we need is a technical conversation; what we’re getting instead is a person following a script that requires us to reboot our toaster before they can help us solve the fact that it’s currently on fire.
You spoke about the delay being related to, among other things, needing to explain the physics of these changes, and how that’ll require research to do well. You’re right, of course. But some of us are also physicists, and engineers, and more besides. You can do better than “increased power density”. Offhand, I can think of three or four ways to achieve that in a typical brushless motor, ranging from the expensive and difficult (polysector) to the utterly fantastical (monopoles). If the info isn’t embargoed, then why be coy? Throwing in a bit of raw info or a keyword or two (“dilithium crystals”) costs you nothing, but gives us a sense of the scale of what Milwaukee has accomplished. As it stands, this article is, as many other of your most dedicated readers have said, quite a bit closer to puffery than anything we’ve seen you write before. If it’s not in fact false praise—and given that it’s from you I have every reason to think it’s earned praise!—then give us a substantive taste of *why*, lest we consign one of the last decent bastions of levelheaded and ethical reporting in this world to the midden-heap of marketerspeak.
Stuart
@Bonnie, in addition to expressing my excitement, I like to archive my thoughts and feelings for future reference.
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/walmart-to-launch-a-pro-tools-experience-what-do-you-want-to-see/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/walmart-launches-new-pro-tools-store/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/walmart-pro-tools-store-2021-update/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
I was so excited about Walmart’s Pro store plans, and shared my excitement in a post. A few years later, when it all turned out to be a lazy whole lot of nothing, I had my raw early sentiments.
If 2-5 years from now, Milwaukee’s tech has or has not driven next-level innovation within their own roadmaps and other brands’, I have a baseline for how I felt at the beginning.
It should be a matter of public record, even if it’s an awkward post that sounds like an extreme fanboy ranting.
I have in the past reread my own posts and thought “wow, that’s really how I felt?”
These sentiments would have made it into posts of the new motor tech, but are best filtered out into its own thing.
Opinions, especially vague forward-looking ones, are ALWAYS a distraction. It’s better for all this to be separate and on its own.
Matt
Jun 28, 2024
How much money did Milwaukee pay you to shill this hard? Did they kidnap a family member of yours?
Stuart
This trip cost me money.
Prep work, 3 days travel, a couple of days to recuperate. There’s an opportunity cost to my time, which is why I don’t travel to many media events.
I had a contributor attend with me for ToolGuyd, and their time and travel meals are paid for by ToolGuyd.
Staying home, I would have been able to process and post about the media info and retail releases, netting more views than a quick teaser post and editorial, and maybe affiliate commissions on preorders. I might have been able to work out a sponsor arrangement with a retailer. Travel means lost $$$.
Big Richard
Next time, if you need a local contributor, let me know. I don’t accept payment of any kind for my tool reviews and/or media events, so it won’t cost Toolguyd a dime. As a perk I’m familiar with all the best breweries in Milwaukee.
Stuart
Thanks, I’ll keep that in mind!
Auralio Cabal
Why so salty?Yellow camp?
ITCD
In my view it’s not too difficult to see that this article was written out of passion. Stuart saw what he truly feels is a great new technology. And since there’s been alleged leaks of a new 3/8″ impact wrench that has crazy high numbers that allegedly is coming out in the fall, I think he’s right to be excited.
If the leaks are true and this excitement is warranted it could be the next level of motor tech, it’s been a long road with battery tools just to get to the point of “close to comparable” to things like gas chainsaws etc. If we were rewinding 15 years I could imagine seeing this same level of excitement at a sneak-peek of brushless impact drivers and some calling him a Makita shill but now look at us — brushless was the wave of the future and it’s all over the place with a proven track record of lighter, reliable, yet more powerful, cordless tools. And Milwaukee might have just made the next big step.
Gordon
I think the issue people have is that Stuart has been showing a strong Milwaukee bias the last few years. This article, for many, is just more on the nose than in the past.
Stuart rips on other companies for unsubstantiated claims, yet writes a fluff piece for Milwaukee where the gist is “you just have to wait and see”. Perhaps it would have been better to write the article that actually had substance instead of this “click-baity” advertorial.
As people have said in the past, perhaps it’s time to add an Opinion tag to posts that stray from journalism.
Stuart
@Gordon
If you’re on the front page, this post is tagged “editorial.”
I ran through a couple of titles at 2am and then at 8am, and went with the most descriptive one.
Let’s talk about what happens when I ask a question. Here are summations of my recent experiences with different brands.
Brand A1- I stopped asking technical questions because I got too many non-answers (or worse, inaccurate answers) after long delays. Their 3rd party PR team is fantastic, but their marketing is just… things haven’t been the same since staffing changes a few years ago.
Dewalt – they’re very helpful and responsive, but they don’t have media events anymore, and there have been fewer opportunities to talk about deeper engineering.
Brand A2 – I’m no longer one of their sponsored influencers, and so I no longer exist
Brand A3 – I’m not one of their sponsored influencers, and so I no longer exist
Brand A4 – they won’t talk with me anymore because I ask questions that don’t firmly “align the story they want to tell.” I feel they care about sales and sales alone. In response to posts or my asking about products launched overseas, they’ve asked “how many of your readers are in the USA?” on multiple occasions. You’re just dollar signs to them.
Milwaukee – Me: “can you tell me more about…”; them: “YES!!”
Me: “50% more power?”
Milwaukee: “Here’s how we did it!”
I had a productive interview with Dewalt a week or two ago. Before that, my last deep interview was a somewhat unsanctioned interview with an engineer 2+ years ago. They saw a comment of mine and wanted to help me better understand what they were doing a little better.
When is the last time I had an opportunity to talk with Frank Mannarino, SBD’s President of their Power Tools Group? Years ago, at the Dewalt FlexVolt media event. I’m sure an interview would be possible, but I don’t even know what I’d ask.
I spoke with Paul Fry, Milwaukee Tool’s President of Power Tools & Equipment on Thursday night..
Milwaukee doesn’t just let me peak behind the curtain, they take it down and say “you’ve got to see this!!”
They tell everyone “this is what we did,” and they are happy to answer all questions about “how” and “why” within reason.
ToolGuyd is fun. Some brands contribute more to that than others. These days, a lot of tool brands want me to influence you. Milwaukee is one of few that are eager to help me inform you.
On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being “just tell readers what we want you to tell them” and 10 being “we want to help you understand our products, no strings attached,” Milwaukee’s cooperation would be 11.
Everyone at Milwaukee answers my questions with a level of transparency as if I were part of their team. This was ALWAYS true, ever since my first NPS event. Many other brands answer questions as if I’m strictly a means towards more sales.
I don’t think that creates more bias, just deeper understanding, and from that greater fuel for my excitement.
ITCD
@Gordon
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/2562-22
And there’s good reason for excitement. Assuming this little puppy is going to be getting this new motor tech, it’s making a jump from 250 breakaway on the last one to a smoking 550. Makita’s 12V 3/8 does 200. DeWalt’s 12V with 1/2″ anvil does 400. Of course we only have confirmation on the circ saw for now but that’s one big leap outta nowhere, and something has to have changed to accomplish that.
If it’s the new motor tech which has pushed it to over twice the power as the previous, it truly is a breakthrough technology. Heaps more power in the exact. same. size. 0.2 pounds heavier but dimensionally it is identical to their current.
Stuart
@ITCD
That tool isn’t getting this motor tech (yet?).
With an impact tool, the torque and impulse power comes from the hammer and anvil, and speed. Improvements to the motor can help with this, but a lot of other things were also done to improve impact performance.
ITCD
@Stuart the way I could see a more powerful motor helping with an impact is in being able to get the hammer up to speed more quickly. It gets pretty much stopped after every contact with the anvil, and of course needs to get back to whirring again to give a solid blow. A motor with more torque would be an avenue to do that, after every whack get that hammer going as fast as possible again as quickly as possible and let ol F = M x V^2 work its magic. Increasing velocity is easy mode for increasing force, the hard part is finding a way to increase velocity in that short split second amount of time and without compromise on size. While M obviously plays a part as well, I don’t think adding a couple ounces to the hammer alone is gonna make up for those digits and it would make the motor already installed in the current Gen have an even harder time overcoming its moment of inertia.
But of course this is purely speculative on my end. I’m already knee deep in Makita so I’ll just wait for a teardown and comparison video to show up on YouTube eventually to see what all they changed lol.
MM
I’m happy for you that you’re excited about this new tech, and I’m sure you have good reason to be, given what you’ve seen and what Milwaukee has told you. I don’t think you’re pulling our leg, I think Milwaukee really has something here.
But we’re in the dark. We have yet to see a single detail or the answers to any of the magic questions. We can see your unusual level of excitement, which of course leads us to wonder why you are so excited, and we go looking for some tidbit that might explain it…but there’s nothing. Even in this reply there is nothing. It’s like a child who found some amazing new toy and is talking about how incredibly fun this new toy is, but won’t let the other kids play with it or even hear a description of what it is or why it’s so fun. Every time another kid asks about this mystery toy they aren’t given any facts, just a reiteration of how much more fun it is, which only raises more curiosity, making the problem worse.
It feels like a deliberate tease to generate marketing hype.
I think you should at least share a basic reason why you’re so excited even if you need more time to organize the full article on the topic and explain all the details later. Or if you can’t share details yet because of some legal agreement, make that clear so we understand the reasoning. The best way for us to understand your position is for us to learn the same things you have learned. Until we can learn about this new technology the way you have we have no choice but to wonder why so much praise is being thrown around but supporting details are absent, and that smacks of shilling. Excitement is great. Excitement without details makes us wonder if the excitement is real or fabricated like so much social media nonsense these days.
Stuart
No. It’s like a child who found a new amazing toy, peeked behind the curtain at the toy shop, and saw pieces of all the *next* amazing toys on the workbench.
I got to play with the toys, and I got to learn about its pieces.
We’ve got to talk about the new tools and the tech that goes into the new tools. Then we can all talk about what those same components, and the know-how that came out of their development, might be used for in the future.
A lot of it’s technical, and there are also still some details I want to follow up about.
There’s a LOT to cover, once the excitement from my trip to Wonka’s Chocolate Factory subsides.
MM
It seems I picked a bad example because semantics derailed the point. The part of my statement which you didn’t quote is the important part: “…but won’t let the other kids play with it or even hear a description of what it is or why it’s so fun.”
This post has now doubled down on fluff over fact: again talking up how cool the new toys are–even telling us there’s more of them behind the curtain that we can’t hear about–and still not sharing the first one with the other kids on the playground. The reply to Mark M farther down the thread is no different: there you even tell Mark you have numbers which could substantiate the claims being made but didn’t share them. Normally this site is big on providing facts, which I respect. Here we have people asking for more information and criticizing the fluff, and in reply we get….more fluff? That’s very different from what I’ve come to expect from Toolguyd.
Being told about the “next tools on the workbench” when we haven’t even heard the most minor detail about the first one yet feels like a slap in the face.
blocky
Stuart, please get some rest when you land. I’ll check back in a few days; looking forward to the upcoming content.
Mike
Wow, I can’t believe the back and forth. I get where you’re coming from Stuart. Not one person has stopped to realize that you article was written while traveling and waiting for a plane, excited to just get home and develop further articles detailing the new Red Tech motors and wizardry behind wrangling angry pixies and making them do more work with less effort. Personally I got a glimpse of some of the new toys and there are a few that I’m excitedly waiting for that I’ve been hounding Milwaukee to produce. To see them, all one needs to do is go to the Piprling website and view the tools that are all labeled “Coming Soon”. And by the way, even Milwaukee lists NOT A SINGLE SPECIFICATION! Well done, Stuart, you have achieved you intension of sparking conversation!!! Truthfully, I excitedly await you follow up article regarding Pipeline.
Nathan Wedding
“Here we have people asking for more information and criticizing the fluff, and in reply we get….more fluff? That’s very different from what I’ve come to expect from Toolguyd.”
I think you might have missed the party where he said, (and I’m paraphrasing here) “I’ll share the details about why I’m excited in the posts to come, but I haven’t slept in 3 days so I need to recover first”
I definitely understand that the lack of numbers backing up claims in this post is not normal for a Tool Guyd post, but personally I think that is why I feel perfectly comfortable with it, I trust that the numbers will follow, and an explanation will be given.
The excitement shared in this, has me very excited to see what posts are to come. On a side note, I purposely avoid seeing pipeline news until I’ve seen it here first, because I feel the “fluff” is filtered out very well.
MM
Oh, I read that part just fine. In fact, I didn’t expect Stuart to comment yesterday at all since he likely needed time to rest after his trip.
The problem occurred when Stuart DID have time to reply, but instead of putting the rumors to bed with facts continued to tease instead. No comments would have been totally understandable. So would “sorry guys, I can’t get into that right now, wait until Monday”. But lengthy replies that omit details when they could easily have included one or two? That feels deliberate, not the product of being tired. Nobody was expecting a full explanation all at once, but the absence of a single detail when there was clearly opportunity to include one just feels wrong.
Anyway, I hope that didn’t come across as too critical, I just wanted to point out that I didn’t miss that part at all, and it is in fact part of the reasoning behind my criticism.
Stuart
The problem with the technical side of things is that you need to SEE the same things I did. So that’s at least 5 images.
Then I have to explain what you’re seeing.
Then I have to explain the differences.
Then I have to explain a couple of physics and engineering principles.
Then I have to find the specs and numbers I was given.
And then after all of that I would share how this allows for imagination and speculation on how Milwaukee will leverage this technology in the future.
That’s for *just* the motor. There are numerous technologies that were developed in parallel, and some will require me to do a bit of background research.
We’re talking thousands of words and numerous rewrites to present all this in an easily-digestible way. I don’t want excitement mixed up into that, it’ll be complex enough as it is.
It’s also hard to draw up facts when they’re buried in recorded interviews – my own or the one I did for Milwaukee.
“Increased power density” doesn’t require numbers. It’s a true or false concept, as motor sizes can be scaled.
Let’s simplify tech as being “black box” engineering where we don’t care about details.
Consider a waterfall over an electric generator.
Motor – more power density | smaller water wheel, generates more power
Electronics – wider power delivery pathway | increased gallons per second water flow
Battery – power source | water storage tank with larger flood gate
Specs surrounding this motor is tethered to one specific tool. The tech that went into it and supporting components have meaning behind that.
The numbers don’t matter as much as the principles do.
Even with individual tools, numbers don’t matter as much as application speeds – the implication of those numbers.
That’s what the big deal is here. It’s scalable technology that’s supported by other scalable technologies.
If your kitchen skills improve where you can go from chopping 2 onions a minute to 5 onions a minute, the skills can extend to walnuts, apples, whatever. The rate of 5 onions a minute isn’t as important as the rate of improvement.
I have the numbers somewhere and if not I can find it again. The number you want pertains to chopping onions, but what I’m excited about is how this relates to chopping shallots, scallions, walnuts, maybe even coconuts.
All this is hard to sift through when I’m not yet in recovery mode and my mind is still going through “speculative mode” where I’m extending the tech in my imagination. *What would I leverage this technology for?* And *that’s* where the excitement comes from.
Adjacent questions build up a bigger and messier story that needs to be broken down.
New battery + new tool = best performance ever
New battery + older tool = higher performance
Legacy battery + new tool = higher performance
Legacy battery + older too = base level performance
There are so many numbers, and some of them were discussed in unrecorded conversations, which means I need to verify via PR.
I need a clear head, and getting all the excitement to paper helps with that.
And it’s not just excitement about what Milwaukee is going to do. Dewalt has to raise its game, and the same with other brands. No brand can afford to be sleepy now.
MM
@ Stuart
A full technical explanation isn’t necessary or expected at this point. Even just factoid would have been sufficient. The goal, at this point, should not be to fully explain Milwaukee’s new tech–that will obviously take a lot of time to fully research and write up and everybody knows it is coming some time in the future. Instead it it should be to provide some bit for data to establish that the hype is real and not just fluff. That does not require understanding the big picture. A single data point is sufficient for that.
“The number you want pertains to chopping onions, but what I’m excited about is how this relates to chopping shallots, scallions, walnuts, maybe even coconuts.”
I’d be happy with any number, so long as it’s a number, and not a list of more vegetables. But more to the point: why feed me a line about onions and shallots when you could have mentioned a new tool Milwaukee is working on instead? That’s the part that feels nasty. We have to use examples like toys when we talk to you about this topic, but as you have seen behind the curtain there is zero reason for you to do that when you talk to us. If the point is some massive number of new applications that this tech unlocks…why not list some of those instead of salad toppings? Or even just one of them? We have to use metaphors like toys when we talk to you about this topic, but as you have seen behind the curtain there is zero reason for you to do that when you talk to us. You can tell us about the tools instead of the coconuts. And you can tell us a little about them before you tell us the big picture.
Is there an embargo involved here? If so, that makes the situation look a whole lot better.
Stuart
“Increased power density.”
Corey Moore
Haven’t been around the site for awhile and I’m still not a Milwaukee guy, but I’m happy to see your passion and enthusiasm remains the same lol You’ve got me excited to see what they’ve got cooking
Farkleberry
Milwaukee engineering has innovated new motor components and Milwaukee marketing has innovated new Pipeline components… hallucinogens!
“Welcome to Pipeline, the red pill is your entrance ticket.”
J/k Stuart ; ) I’m glad you had such a transcendental experience there, looking forward to hearing more information.
I’m no engineer, but it seems like Milwaukee’s quest for excellence and dominance, and perhaps its voluntary low voltage handicap has spurred some real investment and innovation in battery and now motor tech.
This post and its comments are a great example of this site’s value to me. The initial post introduces cutting edge tool technology to the readers and a lively discussion ensues. Unfortunately this technology coverage is quite Milwaukee heavy, but this reflects at least 2 factors:
1. Milwaukee is large and a very active innovator
2. Milwaukee has an open channel to this site, unlike competitors (as explained by Stuart below)
Anyway, a lively discussion ensues… Doresoom digs up a patent, MM references his engineering training and practical experience with power tool mechanisms to give laymen context and possible implications.
This spurs me on to learn about motors.
My first thoughts when I look at the photo is “Wow, look at all the red… of course, it’s Milwaukee.”.
Were I more cynical I might suspect engineering’s task was ” Make us some motors with more Red… and some more power would be great too!”
My next thought is it looks like a lot of plastic for a part that might get some heat (18v creeps into back of my mind, does voltage affect motor efficiency and heating?)
The segments don’t look really well welded from outside, I guess induction at joints?
The more I learn about Milwaukee, the more I’m impressed with breadth and performance and constant innovation, but keep hearing of qc and durability issues.
I’m just skeptical how these would stack up to traditional laminated motors as far as durability from heat and vibration, etc. Laminations seem easy to keep dimensionally consistent vs these thin plates welded together. Obviously with single digit nanometer size transistors ho-hum, anything’s possible.
I get that the big deal is that these motors should have a great power to weight ratio, it will be interesting to see how their durability plays out.
When I Google image search “segmented stator” I get some interesting YouTube videos from a motor factory from a few years ago and a link to a Wikipedia article “Coil winding technology” with a section on “segmented stator coils”.
I wonder how Milwaukee’s patent will affect its competitors’ ability to adopt this technology if the basic concept is not really novel? Will Milwaukee be at a motor voltage disadvantage if these motors become commonplace? Will this spur another innovation?
Stuart
The stress, excitement, and fatigue from these media events definitely messes with one a little bit. But my own runaway thinking is also at least partly to blame.
The segmented nature of the stator is the biggest deal.
While not apples to apples, here’s a video I took of a brushed motor being wound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjMlJOQYKfg
When you have a motor being wound, there’s a slot fill factor – the ratio of area of conductor wire compared to the total space.
Here’s the stator of a Milwaukee M18 Fuel impact driver:
Look at all of the dead space between each motor coil. Then look at the image of the motor, above. There are far less gaps, and the coil also looks neater.
There’s more wiring in the segmented motor.
More wiring = greater magnetic field strength = stronger motor.
That’s a stronger motor in a smaller size. What happens if or when you can also increase the size of the motor? Lots more copper, lots more power.
Separately from that, Milwaukee boosted the battery and electronics tech, providing for greater power delivery.
Right now, this is all contributing to a more powerful circular saw. But what I’m seeing is the HUGE potential for what comes next.
We still haven’t seen an M18-powered cordless snow blower. I thought that the battery tech was the weakest link, and that the new Forge 12Ah lowered all the barriers. But it seems there’s something else in the way. If power was the next weakest link, this new motor tech might be the answer. Maybe it’ll power a larger table saw. Cordless tile saw? A new generation of miter saws?
I don’t think that Milwaukee would have invested in this new tech for just the circular saw. So where else will it be used over the next few years?
If any of Milwaukee’s competitors have grown sleepy, this is gonna wake them up. What new tools and tech will *they* work on?!
Dave
I think a circular saw is the ideal use case for this motor. The advantage of segmented motors (they aren’t particularly new technology by any means) is power density, not absolute power or efficiency. In the case of something like a snowblower or lawnmower you could achieve the same power with a larger more traditional design that on a handheld tool would be impractical.
Farkleberry
Your own passion and excitement are key to inspiring the same in your readers. Learning about the tool industry’s basic science, engineering development and practical applications is fascinating. It’s wonderful that Milwaukee is so open to sharing this with you and us. They seem to believe it helps their business interests, I wish other manufacturers felt the same.
Thanks for this latest picture, this seems to show a non segmented red plastic stator “framework” (please correct if anyone knows proper terminology). The negative effects on the field caused by the traditional steel lamination (explained by MM, referencing patent) are avoided here, though this design has a less “even” field than the segmented design, as you point out. From quick Google image searches, plastic stator framework seems commonplace, though perhaps not in the power tool industry.
It would be interesting to know how much the non conductive plastic vs the more even winding pattern contributes to efficiency. Obviously the segments’ winding patterns enable a much more compact stator and motor.
It’s amazing how far cordless tools have come. From 1980’s Makita’s large ni-cad stick battery drills that seemed to have the power of today’s cordless screwdrivers, then those giant Dewalt ni-cad cordless drills that had some guts, but nothing like the super compact drills in their combos you just wrote about.
Power to weight is often the name of the game here, as in many other equipment arenas, and it’s surprising to me the segmented stator design is only now being used in power tools. I had no idea what a segmented stator was before this article, though. It would surprise me that competitors were unaware, given how easy it was to find examples and a nice write up on Wikipedia. Maybe other makers already have some in the works? If not, they will soon.
I imagine the pros will outweigh cons for the top line tools. A large enough upgrade of power to weight represents or enables a new tool, like it did with the nearly pencil sized cordless screwdriver, mini chainsaw, mini dust blower, E bikes, drones, etc., etc…
Being able to fit more wire, evenly distributed=more magnetic field=more power in a given volume is the advantage, as you say. According to Milwaukee and Wikipedia, this design is more expensive overall, but as pointed out, the winding is far easier. Connecting the segments and terminating their wires is apparently far more complex though.
The durability of these structural and electrical connections between segments are maybe my biggest concern.
The decreased space between components and how that might effect heat dissipation is another concern. I get that more efficient fields = less heat. There is much less manufacturing (winding) constraint on how much heat generating conducting wire can be crammed in. Can designers now make the components close enough together to where heat becomes more detrimental to performance or longevity?
I’m sure Milwaukee, et. all are constantly working on cooling strategies, though perhaps often at odds or competing with shrinking space goals. I also wonder how voltage affects all this?
Obviously there is a big performance, maintenance and longevity difference between a Formula 1 race car and a Toyota Corolla. Will these new tools be all performance upside with no cost to durability? If the only additional cost increase is the initial price, that’s ideal.
The comments about thick kerf blades on the new circ saw are intriguing, but I typically think of thick kerf as most useful on fine finish stuff, like table saws. If a thin kerf blade wanders on rough framing tolerances, who cares? Maybe a track saw would benefit, but I think of them as thin sheet good specialists. A stiffer blade can be helpful if given power to spin it, though. Some of the cross cut specialty circ saws like the Mafell, etc. might benefit most, especially when cutting into thick hardwood, etc. Table saws (and maybe all stationary saws or tools) seem to be somewhat limited on power to weight by safety and stability concerns.
If the new Milwaukee circ saw is 7 lbs but requires a 4 lb 12 ah battery for instantaneous power supply and not just run time, we are basically back to lightweight Skil mag 77 weight. If the power is substantially better, that’s a big deal though. If Milwaukee can produce 7 1/4 saws at the size/weight of the Metabo HPT saws with more power that’s a winner. I watched a YouTube circ saw review taking about how their carpentry crew dedicated the heavy Flex Volt saw to long rips and LVL, they liked some of the mid weight Makita, etc. saws, but most often reached for the HPT, simply because of light weight. The speed/power and capacity of a 7 1/4 at a size and weight more like original 6 1/2 is hopefully possible. As you say, smaller and more efficient motors have implications for all types of equipment.
The more efficient fields mean less heat per watt and more power at same battery draw.
Designers could use this technology to make tools with the same size/weight and power output (same size stator with more even field, same watt output), but with greater efficiency – lessening strain on batteries.
More likely, an entire tool – motor, chassis, etc. can be scaled down in size but not power OR an existing chassis size can be upfitted with a more powerful motor – tools with a higher power to weight ratio.
This could increase power requirements from batteries, while making them a larger component of the total system size/weight. If a lighter tool needs a heavier battery to function, that eats away some advantage.
If segmented stator is a big leap in motor tech/performance, and tabless and pouch are the concurrent battery leap, what’s next?
JR Ramos’ comments about sealed batteries’ lack of cooling beg the question of what’s next there, especially as tools get smaller yet more power hungry, and ideally their batteries shrink as well.
Droid
If that saw actually outperforms the flexvolt while being lighter like they’re claiming, that is a pretty crazy feat for a tool with 1/3 the voltage. I’ll be honest I thought they had hit the ceiling on their 18v tools without making them heavier.
Chris
But you’ll never get great performance without a Forge battery, it’s pretty clear you need these batteries to keep up. If DeWalt were to put tabless cells in flexvolt batteries and decide to update the saw. Milwaukee falls behind again
Chris S
But that’s how they’ve been for a long time. Leapfrogging is perfectly ok. What’s bad is if they only match each other. Innovation and competition would drastically slow.
ITCD
Other folks in the market might see such matching as their opportunity to bound ahead and take the market by surprise (and perhaps, by storm). Fortunately there’s more than these 2 on the market so it’s keep pushing or get left behind, like Makita managed to do with high-torque impact wrenches.
Robert
Seriously, I’m curious. Will the motors (and that part next to it in the photo) be painted red like that when they are inside a cordless tool?
Jason M
The red parts are the plastic components of the motors
Robert
Aren’t the red coils copper?
Joe H
The copper coils are not painted. Just zoom in and you will see if you can’t already tell. The only things red are the plastic components.
MM
The coils are copper, probably coated with a very thin layer of lacquer as is typical for “magnet wire”. That lacquer very often has a reddish tint to it. But the “milwaukee red” colored stuff that’s not the wire coils certainly looks like plastic.
Alexk
How heavy is the saw with the new 12ah? It all sounds very exciting….but not for me. I already have the older fuel 7 1/4” and it works great so I can’t get the new and improved. Actually, I don’t have a need for any of the new tools. All my Milwaukee (and Ryobi) tools still work well, even the oldest ones, except for original m12 Rotary which had a collet break off and couldn’t be removed and the 1st gen m12 jigsaw – pretty much useless. Working on building mini decks and cedar siding and the new m12 fuel jigsaw and circular saw (with high output battery) are so good, I leave the m18 stuff in the truck. What a golden time for tools. Have the first and second generation heated vest and I’ll probably get the latest one. Anything that lets me enjoy working outdoors in cold weather is worth it.
Auralio Cabal
Some just have to have the latest and best tools,some like me have to have latest toys,not that i really need them ( semi retired)and some have more disposable income , my vjce is buying my toys,not alcohol or vacations.LOL
Jeff
Milwaukee’s website shows the new saw at 7.9 LB bare and 11.1 LB with the 12ah Forge battery. The old saw is listed at 9.05 LB bare.
Joe H
Now Milwaukee could be forgiven if they said this was a “game changer”.
Jim Felt
Basically it seems to appear that Milwaukee has the most progressive and well orchestrated new/future tool introduction system of any of their U.S. market competitors.
And while I enjoy several other brands’ tools every bit as much as Milwaukee they all appear in the North American market at least as lousy competitors.
Kudos for their efforts. Maybe it will lead to their competition arousing themselves to actually compete?
Jerry
I look at the motor, and realize there is a battery behind it.
To me that looks like a very small motor for a circular saw, especially a high performance one.
IMO, the next big push in cordless tools is going to be ‘power density’, in that they will get more power out of smaller and lighter tools and batteries.
I think we are getting close to where cordless tools will not only perform like corded tools, the time will come when they do it without any size or weight penalty.
Reflector
Looks like a flat wire wound motor. They’re known for being more power dense than but they’re not conceptually new as we’re seeing their usage in EVs these days. If anything electric motor technology is fairly old and well known but we’re seeing improvements more on the electronics/power/drive side of things. I’m fairly sure that the other power tool manufacturers who want to pursue specification and checkbox maximalism will do what they need to make their own flat wire wound motors.
MM
The wire looks round to me, but the windings look interesting, it appears that each segment of the stator is its own individual coil as opposed to the normal way the windings on brushless motors go.
Reflector
It looks like it could be flat wire to me but it might be the lighting and low resolution playing tricks on my eyes. When I heard “power density” being the highest that generally indicates flat wound wire motors as they’re said to have higher power density.
Mike
The wire is not flat in ‘geometry’, but the way they are wound is called flat-winding, in that the coils are “stacked” in flat layers. Traditionally very difficult, but highly accurate and the megnetic field becomes very dense when energized.
Tom
Really it begs the question of why the other manufacturers chose not to do this. Is it significantly more expensive to make? more heat sensitive? There will be a reason that they decided not to go down this route, as it isn’t new technology.
OldDominionDIYer
First of all, how do you know it’s not new tech? Secondly, maybe the others haven’t even thought of the innovation yet, rather than what you suggest as there being a fatal flaw which steered other competitors in another direction. I will wait and see, the new saw is a full half a pound lighter when compared as a bare tool, that’s pretty significant for an 8lb tool. Lighter, and more powerful, I like it.
ITCD
The 18650 lithium-ion cell was introduced in 1991 by Sony, and Li-Ion tech is older than that. It took until 2005 for them to show up in power tools.
Brushless DC motors were invented in 1962 and it took decades to wind up in a power tool.
It’s not just enough for the technology to exist, or for it to be used in other places already. It has to be considered first, and be made practical for the specific application. A 1960s brushless motor would have had you probably carrying a backpack for the electronics required.
Tom
I’m certainly not suggesting a fatal flaw, but just that engineering is always compromise management. As ITCD suggests they have likely just found a way to miniaturise a motor technology. I’m hopeful about this, and glad that the big companies are still investing in R&D.
OldDominionDIYer
Understand, and what I mean by “fatal flaw” is that whatever the tech it has a characteristic that is so debilitating that a company won’t pursue it, essentially killing the tech and by virtue of their decision to move on leaving the tech on the research room floor.
Stuart
It’s a new technology.
Yes; I was told that Milwaukee also had to develop new technologies to produce these motors.
Doresoom
I believe this is the patent application for the new motors, filed in December 2023: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20240120801A1/en
Doresoom
…and here’s another patent with some actual torque/speed/efficiency curves. Briefly skimming it, the patent discusses steel losses that are present in traditional laminated stators – I’m guessing those are minimized with this polymer core shown in the images you took at Pipeline, Stuart. https://patents.google.com/patent/US20240195243A1/en
MM
Thanks for posting those, Doresoom.
I haven’t read the 2nd one yet but looking at the first one this seems like a very neat idea. If each part of the stator is its own individual section which is welded to the others to make the whole stator I’d think that the magnetic flux would likely be better focused compared to the normal one-piece laminations used to make most motors. It will be interesting to learn all the details.
JR Ramos
Yes, thanks for those. I was about to go searching.
Also waiting for developments in a new lawsuit they filed the other day against Klein (Modbox latching system). I think they included two patents…interested to see that they are both jointly owned by Milwaukee and Keter.
Auralio Cabal
I’m mostly in the Red platform but do have a bit of Yellow tools,,most of the time when theneed arises i reah for my Red tools and do prefer my M12 Fuel line for the power and weight advantages over a big and heavy tool, as you age the tool weight and ergonomics matter, am even donating / giving away my old M18 brushed Reds.
Nathan
But how much does it cost to make and implement? Wonder if that’s a demo piece with the red insulation? I’d like to see the shaft that’s blurry over to the right.
Stuart
That’s something I don’t have any insights to, other than “a lot more.” We won’t see it in every new tool.
Andrew
Chris you are correct but only while it I’d in the saw it will be transitioned and used in probably everything else they make that can use it from drills to impacts to multi tools, what do they say in the industry about a tool that is slow to do it’s job? Time is money and if u can save 2 seconds on every 2×4 you cut and your cutting a 1000+ a job guess how much time was saved? On 1000 almost 9 hours of just cut time now put it into drills and impact drivers to drive the screws another few seconds saved per board now that’s even more hours saved because each board isn’t just 1 screw, so if u can make the job take a day or 2 less just by using faster n tools that’s thousands of dollars saved just by the tools working faster and that’s just 1 job now if over the year you can get 1 more job done than you would have been able to otherwise now that can be a big chunk of cash.
Jeff
Math Check: 1000 cuts x 2 seconds per cut= 2000 seconds or 33.33 minutes not 9 hours.
ChicagoJon
Interesting that Milwaukee is developing a motor itself. In the many take apart videos I’ve watched, AVE and the like, the motors are a commodity item that is spec’d from a supplier.
Chris
I’m pretty sure every FUEL motor is custom designed for Milwaukee tools and are not “off the shelf” motors.
MM
I’m sure you’re right that Milwaukee specs things like the dimensions, the size of the shaft, the size of the gear on the end, the size and number of turns in the winding, on all their motors but the design thus far has been thoroughly generic 3-phase DC motors. Every brushless cordless tool motor I’ve ever seen has been the same design, just with different dimensions depending on the tool. Maybe the motor is larger or smaller in diameter vs another, maybe it has different windings, but they’re all the same basic construction. They’re little different than the motors you find in a drone or used in R/C models–those come in different sizes too, but again they’re all the same basic 3-phase induction motor which has been around for a very long time. The motor in the pictures and appearing in the patents that Doresoom linked is a fundamentally different design. In this new motor each pole has its own coil whereas in a traditional induction motor each coil overlaps a number of poles. It also has a different lamination design, and perhaps other features I haven’t read about yet. They didn’t just call up Acme Motor Co and ask for a 30mm x 20mm motor with 7 turns of #16 wire and an 8mm output shaft; this motor is fundamentally different. And this is just me guessing, but I imagine it’s probably also a lot more efficient to assemble too. Winding stators has always been a PITA, in this case if the stators are made from segments the segments can be wound individually before being assembled into the final stator.
Stuart
bingo! There are all kinds if implications stemming from that.
J Bander
I used to work at Baldor Electric and we were working on prototype motors kind of like that new design.
Instead of lamination stacked and welded to form the motor we made lamination segments like a pie. These were then stacked and welded. I was in the stamping end of it and was only told that it was a new motor design. The cost was probably setting up the actual stamping and production that has been alluded to. Interesting though.
NoahL
I saw they have a new 7 1/4″ circ saw coming soon that utilizes a thick kerf saw blade. Never seen a circular saw meant for thick kerf blades before but I’m intrigued! I was always taught that a good tablesaw uses a thick kerf blade and a circ saw is thin kerf. I wonder if it only uses thicker kerf blades
JR Ramos
Most now use ultra-thin kerf for less friction/drag and more efficient use of what battery power gives us. I think they messed up their specs on the page I saw but this “thick” kerf seems like just the normal blades we used to run with corded saws, surely less than 1/8″ but much beefier than the usual blades today. That was one of the things I noticed right away and made me wonder if the new saw must have *that* much more power. Thin kerf, even good plates and design, might just warp so badly under more power/heat that they made the switch. Probably just have to mount a thin/ultra-thin and see how it does…I’d assume it would be fine in normal use but hogging it through stacks or hardwood, as this new saw seems to indicate it might do better, could toast the thin blades quickly.
Steve
I’m excited that you’re excited Stuart. I’m neck deep in DeWalt and don’t plan to change but new technology inspires competitors to keep up, so in the end it will be good for me too. I know the tech/engineer guys want hard data but I’m happy with the improvements since I started my cordless collection a decade ago and look forward to the new stuff. I haven’t worn out even my first batteries so newer & better is my only excuse to buy more. Thanks
Bosko Corovic
What NEW Milwaukee tools will come with POWERSTATE™ Brushless Motor ?
Stuart
At least the new circular saw. I didn’t check about the other new FUEL tools.
What’s I’m so excited about is its expandability potential.
Bosko Corovic
Thank you
Mark M.
For a site/author that is very quick to rip on brands for unsubstantiated marketing claims (“Faster! Better!” Stronger!”) that’s precisely how this reads. It’s cool that you’re excited , but to hold tool brands to certain fact- and data-based standards and then to turn around and gush about some motor tech with zero data or numbers…IDK man, just seems like you want it both ways.
Stuart
The thing is, physics cannot lie.
I HAVE some key numbers at the motor level, and it’s enough.
I can test and compare tools. I can’t test and compare individual motors or components.
With the motor, it comes down to physics. And there are ways to verify certain claims, but sometimes it comes down to trust.
If Milwaukee says they are using new FETs for power distribution, there’s no real way to prove or disprove it. There’s also no reason for them to lie.
If I show you 2 cups of table salt from different worldwide sources, could you tell them apart?
But for motors, some characteristics can be fudged. Others cannot be.
Anyway, while all of the new tools are exciting, what excites me most is seeing where things are heading. That’s where this post came from.
When you see what comes out next year, the year after that, and after that, and after that… 5 years from now tell me whether you still think my excitement was undeserved.
Mark M.
My comment wasn’t about physics or objective performance measures. It was about holding yourself to the same standards that you hold brands to. “Just wait and see!” is what I hear you saying. Ok. So the next time a brand teases something I’d expect you to take that hook, line and sinker with no criticism. Because that’s what you’re apparently expecting of your readers with this post. And BTW I don’t have any idea what that two cups of salt thing even means.
Stuart
You know the saying “a picture says a thousand words?”
What I’ve seen and been told about paint a picture, and one that will take thousands of words to describe.
What kinds of numbers are you looking for? What kinds of criticisms or challenges are you looking for?
What I know to be true and fact-based supports what I’ve been told. I was told x% more copper (30%??) and y% more power (50%??).
HOW they achieved this is the key takeaway for ME, and what they could do with it NEXT is the most exciting part.
It’s inarguable.
Salt looks like salt in the way a brushless motor looks like a brushless motor, unless you know exactly what you’re looking at.
Why doesn’t Milwaukee make a [type of tool everyone has been asking for], or a [higher powered version of existing tools]? This could be the key to unlocking higher performance levels for those tools.
Asking questions is good, and I certainly do that, whether you believe it or not.
8 pounds is 33% heavier than 6 pounds. 6 pounds is 25% lighter than 8 pounds.
You’re saying you want me to trust numbers, but numbers also require context.
We’re going to break down everything I know about Milwaukee’s latest developments, and then we’ll see if you see the same future roadmap as I do.
Mark M.
“It’s inarguable”. Except you presented exactly ZERO data. All subjective “wow guys, this is neat. Trust me!” Aiiight. If that’s the point of your post, mission accomplished. What you’re dancing around is that time and time again YOU rip on unsubstantiated marketing claims. And from a reader’s standpoint that’s what you’re doing. If you can’t see that at least in some small way then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Jared
If Milwaukee has a next-gen brushless motor coming, one exciting thing that might entail is increased performance all over the place. I.e. this isn’t just a new brushless circular saw motor, these motors (or at least their tech) is shared across the lineup.
That doesn’t mean Milwaukee will update everything with the new tech, but it might mean all the new tools will come with it.
Stuart
The new motor tech is scalable; it won’t be used for all tools, but will be available for tools that need it.
Chris
Quite the Milwaukee puff piece
Milwaukee loves their marketing jargon…. Like I always said, Milwaukee is a marketing company first. They love to throw terms and words around to entice people… Doing the same here. Most brushless power tool motors in cordless tools mostly are built the same, batteries talk to tools etc… Only Milwaukee throws a fancy term behind it like it’s something special when everyone else does the same thing
Stuart
What jargon are you talking about??
These motors are NOT built the same.
Chris
It’s like before they bragged about powerstate brushless motors and they were the best but looked like every other brushless DC motor in any other tool. Redlink to define how the battery and tool talks. Every other major power tool competitor does the same thing without the marketing jargon behind it. It’s all marketing bs to get everyone hyped
Stuart
What does that have to do with this post?
I’m extremely excited about new technology and what it can do, and you’re soapboxing about how you don’t like marketing jargon?
Chris
It isn’t the same as before but it’s not like they built something radical that has never been seen before. This motor could easily be built by another cordless tool company. The windings look to be flat and one and each pole has a coil, that’s really the only thing different then just about every other brushless motor in a power tool.
Stuart
Nope.
Show me an example of another brand’s power tool built with a motor like this one. This is an open invite to engineers or product managers at any cordless power tool brand.
MM
I’m curious where you guys are seeing flat wire. If you look at the 1 o’clock and 7 o’clock portions of the photo you can clearly see the wire is round.
There seem to be at least two big differences in the photo that I can see: the individual coils around each pole, and the individual pole construction means the that the laminations making up the magnets are wedge-shaped and are welded together, as opposed to the ring-shaped laminations that typical motors use. I’m not an expert on magnetics so I don’t know the exact details but I do know that has implications for the shape of the magnetic field the stator generates, and that would affect power and efficiency. I assume that has been carefully optimized in this motor.
Scott F
+1 excited about your excitement and look forward to reading all of the technically filled posts that will follow. I trust that if YOU are excited enough about something to write this specific editorial, the rest of us should be also.
In prior years, I recall being minimally excited after reading the pipeline day-after recap – mostly a bunch of minor improvements to things I have already or new/similar things I don’t need. This year sounds different, we are due for a step-change in technology.
DRT42
I agree ! Gotta say, “Negative” without data is much worse than “Positive” without much data. Just my opinion. If Stuart is excited, so am I.
A W
Agreed. I’m excited to read more in the days ahead.
OldDominionDIYer
Model No. 2834-21HD
Max RPM: 6,000
Vacuum Adapter,
Bevel detents at 22.5 & 45 degrees
Depth detents at 1/2″, 3/4″, & 1-1/2”
Bare Tool 7.9lbs W/12ah Forge Battery 11.1lbs
Additionally, the saw has an electric blade brake, LED work light, rafter hook, and all magnesium guards and shoes, and of course an onboard wrench, which is to be expected. Interestingly it comes equipped with a 24T thick kerf framing blade, going against recent trends of using thin kerf blades due to their relative ease in cutting and lower power demands. It also has 2-5/8″ cut capacity, able to cut 3x material in one pass.
Eric J Gratton
We use Milwaukee exclusively at work , working maintenence in a paper mill. And sometimes work is hot, heavy and difficult. And these tools always come through for us. Spending money in quality tools always pays off !
MattW.
I watch tool show and other live steams always looking for you to say hi to one of the robs. The previous year we got a split second of you on concord carpenter live stream. This year no one snagged a glimpse of you yet. Call it where’re Waldo of pipeline!
Stuart
lol. You’ll see more of me somewhere.
I said hi to both Robs at different times, but didn’t see either at the Pipeline event outside of break times.
Each event is run a little differently, and this one also had a new completely free-flowing format. Everyone moves in their own directions, whereas there used to be group rotations followed by free exploration time.
Rob H
Thanks for your coverage. Looking forward to future articles with some more details, but it is fun seeing you excited.
Not exactly sure why people are crawling your case about being enthusiastic about what appears to be a leap in tool tech, but some people won’t be happy with anything. Especially if they have a chip on their shoulders regarding the big red brand. Keep doing your thing and I’ll be looking for those updates when you’re rested up.
Stuart
It’s good to ask questions, and I encourage it, even if the tone tilts towards negativity.
bg100
Stuart, you haven’t steered me wrong yet. Your reporting has been unbiased and accurate and your opinions well formed. Your excitement is likely warranted, even if others seem dubious.
I will wait on the edge of my seat, not just to see you vindicate yourself to all the critics here, but also too see how much catching up my boys at Black and Yellow have to do.
Personally, I’m quite excited to see innovation in this space, and I too have been feeling ho-hum at the constant marketing jargon inflating marginal improvements. At the same time though, I have spread the DeWalt gospel to a lot of dudes, so if we get knocked off the throne, I’m gonna have to eat a lot of my foot 😂
MFC
I am super hopeful that this new technology you’re excited about makes our brushless tools more reliable. I have multiple Grandpa tools from the 80s and 90s that are heavy, slow, and reliable. The motors are still turning even with the brushes being replaced multiple times. I have gone through four brushless circular saws, three impact drivers, and two drills in the last five years. Red and yellow.
If they could make a motor that can be efficient and last longer than 10 years on a jobsite, then I’d be happy. I don’t want more power (most of the time), I want more reliability. Same for high output batteries.
fred
We have been “trained” by the manufacturers to expect that the “newest and best” technology will hit the market every few years. So, with that expectation, we have become somewhat inured to the lack of longevity whether it is in our televisions or our tools. My business experience is now more than a decade old – but even then, we’d seldom opt to repair a cordless tool based on cost/benefit calculations. Rather we’d most often replace what was worn out. Compare that to some of the Skil Mag77 saws that we used – where brush replacement was common but no big deal in keeping the tool running. In a previous post – we talked about the decline of Porter Cable – and how many of their corded tools exhibited extraordinary longevity. In today’s market – with many buyers seemingly striving to always have the newest and best – that sort of longevity may be less attractive to buyers and sellers alike.
Camden
I would love to know how this motor stacks up to power and efficiency of hobby-grade brushless inrunners including the torque and efficiency curves along with envelope size…
Bremon
Is the trigger that sends user input to that motor redesigned, or still the bog standard Milwaukee special that seemingly stops working randomly until you remove the battery and click it back in? Milwaukee motors have never been my issue with any of their tools, though a lot of Milwaukee stuff over the past few years have chased power numbers and gotten bigger and heavier to do so. Hopefully that efficiency keeps things cool, because the little flagship Fuel drill works well but gets pretty damn hot. I know Dewalt is frequently seen as second place around these parts, while Makita is pretty much outright hated, but Milwaukee would do well to focus on ergonomics for a while and less on paper specs. Hopefully a jump in motor technology and efficiency can be a catalyst for that.
CharlieD
I liked your post, and am disappointed with the few comments which are “tilting toward negativity”. Negativity is not necessary and is neither pleasant nor nice. I continue to look forward to more posts and to learning more about what is new. Thank you.
SEVIN HADLEY
It’s cool! Every tool I own is Milwaukee, but I have DeWalt and Ridgid too but I like ANY ARTICLE about tools that’ll make my job easier and faster!
Electricmotorexpert
I’m an electric motor guy, the stator looks impressive, 2 wires in hand, large gauge wire for more current, but the rotor construction would intrigue me the most since I can’t see it as well and since the rotor design means a lot more to me anyways.
Stuart
I have more images of the stator and maybe one or two of the rotor since there aren’t too many differences there. I’ll get them up as soon as I can.
The segmented nature avoids larger gaps needed for traditional winding machinery. New processed were needed for that, and also for the subsequent welding process to bring it all together.
George
I’m tired of hearing how powerful the Dewalt half inch impact is. My local tire shop has replaced numerous anvils in these and went back to snap on and Milwaukee.
Alexk
Watched some of the demos from the event. The phone sized work light brightened my day. Can’t wait to see it in person. The vacuum with two HEPA filters looks great and finally, they added a plug for a/c. And with their version of a dust deputy, it is exactly the one I want – but can’t afford.
Can’t wait to read about your experiences, Stuart.
I think this will force other tool companies to up their game. And regardless of the brand, we will all benefit.
Alexk
Just watched Doresoom tool reviews on YouTube under Milwaukee Patents 2024 and he goes over patents he’s found of tools that didn’t get shown at Pipeline.
I hope they make the rope launcher for tree work. Maybe my Ninja dreams will come true.
Clientgraphics
It’s a game of leap frog between Milwaukee and Dewalt. The ball is in Milwaukee’s court at the moment. I really wish either company could put a dual action forward and reverse variable speed toggle trigger mechanism rather than the single trigger. I believe Snapon has some patent good through most of 2031 on it.
I personally think I’m burnt out on all the Marketing numbers.
MetalNerd
@Stuart
This might be a bit of a tangent, but I’m wondering if you’ve ever looked at how guitar pickups are wound?
The various “shapes” of the winding pattern can have dramatic effects on the tone.
My question is, is this idea applicable (or is it already in use) in creating more efficiency in electric motors…and is this what Milwaukee has done here?
I understand that more windings equals more copper, and that creates more power density.
But could shaping the winding pattern maximize power output, given the same amount of copper?
I’m not an engineer, but I am an avid “tinkerer”, and a fan of Milwaukee tools…and yes, I’ve owned all of the major brands, and a bunch of the lesser ones!
For my money, and what I do with them, the tools I’ve purchased that bear the Milwaukee logo outperform the others.
I don’t claim they’re the most perfect things ever…they just happen to go above and beyond fitting the bill for my needs.
Always appreciate your posts and invite!
Hope you’ve caught up on your sleep!
Cheers!!
Stuart
Honestly, I don’t know, but I don’t think so.
Hold your right hand in front of you, and make a fist. Stick your thumb up. If your fingers are a coil of wire, your thumb points in the direction of the magnetic field.
The first thing I noticed about the magnetic stator segments is that the wiring appeared to have a neater pattern. In theory, I guess this could help ensure greater parallelism of the magnetic field strength. That wouldn’t be a major contributing factor, but if you’re developing new tech to wind motor segments, you might as well ensure it’s optimized as much as possible.
scott
As someone with a master degree in electrical engineering from NC State (My focus was E-mag) It will be neat to see what advances they have produced. Physics of e-mag is easy, if you are a math guy, the practical application, not so much 🙂
Ben
Too late for me, I have left Milwaukee and moved to Makita xgt. At one point I had 6 out of 6 of my Milwaukee drills in for warranty repairs and 3 of my 6 nail guns in for repair so I said enough is enough and changed. No point having the most power in everything if nothing lasts or works well. Milwaukee saws are no where near as good. It’s not all about power. The most important thing is the balance of a saw, line of sight and its ability to not cut out or overheat. Xgt saws are leaps and bounds ahead. Articles like this just annoy me after having lost all trust in the brand. Also the way they have jacked prices up now they have most of the market, it’s just wrong. I have so many Milwaukee tools sitting in my shed all with faults of some kind. Junk.
Lyle
Wow, give Stuart a break. He’s excited because he went to the event and saw a lot of cool stuff. I think his past history of fair and analytical reporting has earned him the respect that he deserves. It doesn’t make him immune to seeing cool stuff and getting excited. He wanted to share with us some of that excitement. I’m sure he’ll explain in future posts and then we can decide if it was worth the hype or not.
Stuart
Thanks, I appreciate it!
Few people realize that “oh my, WOW!!” is my native reaction, and that I try my best to filter it out most of the time. Sometimes I just gotta let it out, no regrets.
Randy
Look forward to seeing the performance numbers.
I prefer breakthroughs that equate to less weight in the hand, not just more power or run time.
Lyle
I agree, especially as I get older. This is why the Dewalt 1.7Ah PowerStack battery was a big deal to me. It is smaller, lighter, and more powerful than the 2Ah compact batteries that I was using on my handheld tools. I’ve even used it on my circular saw, cutoff tool, and a few others. Since I’m not running these tools all day long it’s perfect. There should also be an increased lifespan for this battery technology as well. I really wish they would have put their money where their mouth (claims) are and offered it with a 5 year warranty.
I was less as enthusiastic about the 5Ah PowerStack battery since it was both bigger and heavier than my existing 5Ah batteries. I think I would have been fine if they came out with a 3.4Ah battery that was in a smaller form factor than the current 5Ah (old) battery.
Chris
A 3.5 powerstack is coming, already seen it online
KG21Unth
Thanks for sharing. As many in the comments section mentioned, looking forward to the improved performance numbers. What I am most looking forward to is the incremental innovation via user behavior change such technologies will bring.
To me – science is about discovery and invention of technology. Engineering is the realization of the technology via systems, processes, standardizations and manufacturing.
If Milwaukee (TTI) has found a way to maximize the power density of the motors to accommodate more user friendly form factors, thats amazing. One of the challenges with circular saws is the motor housing overhang and (I would assume) run time for heavy duty or high frequency applications. The advancements in their battery tech, a higher density motor system, more efficient power electronics all translate to more output for similar input. Good on them for innovating and really building technologies around user needs and overcoming technological limitations to realize those said needs. They continue to lead the way.
Over time, the hope is such technologies will go down the brand continuum at TTI and the Ryobi / Hoover customers could benefit from it as well.
There is more to innovation than the next gimmicky battery pack with voltage X that the rest of the industry touts. Good on TTI for investing in, supporting and realizing these innovations.
Droid
Looking forward to hearing an in depth report on this!
LK
What’s the deal with this — I haven’t seen any other talk about new brushless motors from other insiders or influencers who attended the event more than a week ago.
Droid
Hey Stuart, are you going to do a more in-depth post on this new tech? I’d sure like to hear more about it as well as some more data on the actual performance.