Over on the Garage Journal Forum there’s a thread where someone asked about the best drill for the money. He has a $150 budget but since he already owns a Porter Cable 18V Li-ion impact driver, I offered to send him a spare cordless Porter Cable drill/driver that I have collecting dust under my test bench.
Later in the thread a member mentions that they read somewhere about how Porter Cable’s 20V Max tools are simply higher-priced versions of the 18V tools, and that the batteries are interchangeable.
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Let me get one thing straight. The 20V Max tools are NOT simply a re-branding of Porter Cable’s 18V line, they’re completely different designs. I am actually quite impressed with the new Porter Cable 20V drill and impact driver, and will be putting together reviews of them as soon as I can.
I also spoke to a Porter Cable product manager who shared some insight about how and why they developed the new designs.
Thus, 20V Max ≠ 18V, from a branding perspective. In terms of voltage, 20V Max and 18V are no different.
I can tell you for certain that the 20V Max and 18V tools and batteries are definitely not interchangeable. In case you don’t believe me, here’s a 90 second low-light video that shows how the two platforms don’t play together well.
So… what do you guys want to see on next week’s episode of Does it Fit?
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mnoswad1
This clearly illustrates the reluctance for people to buy a new drill……..because your actually buying into a battery system rather than a specific tool. So comparison specs between drill makers is moot. If I own a certain drill……i’m going to own all the other tools in that battery system rather than nick pick over negligible runtime and torque differences.
Also this video shows that in a span of a couple years how companies will abandon their systems in order to “compete”…….they haven’t realized that the commitment to a system is the most marketable feature they have. DeWalt is the only company to understand this, as shown with their 18v battery system. Lets hope Dewalt puts out a brushless drill and impact just to throw a bone to the diehard 18 volt users out there. I’ll stick with a company if they stand behind their systems.
Stuart
Porter Cable has made it clear that they’re not abandoning their 18V line. They will continue to produce the 18V NiCd products and add-ons, but the Li-ion aspect of the 18V line will likely fade into the shadows as the 20V system expands.
It’s not a simple case of 18V -> 20V Max. Porter Cable has plans to maintain both lines in parallel.
When Dewalt shifted from 18V to 20V Max, everyone knew that the end of the 18V lineup was near. Stores were not willing to stock both SKUs indefinitely.
With Porter Cable, the 18V and 20V Max offerings will target different users. Officially the 18V tools are also “value-focused professional tools,” but in practice the 18V NiCd products were much more popular with budget-conscious DIYers.
Dewalt is not going to be releasing new innovations for the 18V lineup. Or maybe they will, but I highly doubt it. They will support 18V users with battery packs and service as long as they need to, but there is little reason for them divert engineering efforts towards developing new 18V tools.
Murray
Then Porter Cable should offer a buy back or discount off the upgrade from 18v Li-Io to their new 20v system for the buyers that are now stuck with an impact driver & drill they can no longer get batteries for. NIcd battery systems are not as light, nor do they last as long… That is the reason people bought the Li-Io systems to begin with. Stuart hit the nail on the head for me and I’ve always been a big fan of porter cable till now.
Jayson
Porter Cable could have obtained more of the market if they had simply made the new line batteries fit the old equipment. Ryobi did this and i’ve been faithful ever since and Ryobi is taking over and getting huge. Porter Cable got greedy like the rest of them and expected old Porter Cable Owner’s to simply throw out old still good equipment to upgrade, no thanks, i’ll stick with a company that cares about our bottom dollar.
Dustin
I won’t buy Porter Cable again due to this because the NiCd batteries are 100% worthless. Having to deal with battery memory and low capacity just isn’t worth it. Li (air, ion, etc…) is pretty much the only way to make batteries that perform to these specs.
george ellenburg
yes and can’t find 18v charger
Lawrence Kuhn
I have two (2) 18 volt NiCd PC chargers and also two 18 volt Li-Ion PC chargers. One Li-Ion battery just broke apart today and one does not have much run time on a full charge. I am so done with Porter Cable and their cordless tools. And I have cordless recip and circular saws, too. Waste of money as they do not last.
David Weigel
I recently purchased a 2009 porter cable pc1800d at a thrift store for 10 bucks– can I use new model 18 volt like ion batteries or is the mount incompatible?
Stuart
Unfortunately, the current 20V Max batteries won’t fit Porter Cable’s 18V tools. 18V – if you could find them – should fit, but you’ll need to reference the tool’s user manual or look for known-fitting batteries if you have one to ensure compatibility.
David Weigel
Thanks for the info!
PC18B
Yes. You can buy 18v lithium batteries on Amazon. Just make sure you get a charger that is dual chemistry.
Ray Johansson
I’m new to the cordless world and I really don’t understand all this verbiage about the batteries. My simple question is, can you charge an 18 volt Black & Decker battery with my 20 volt Porter Cable charger ?
Matt
Definitely not. As was shown the batteries are ‘keyed’ to only charge or be used with their system. And crossing types or platforms would be a bad idea even if they would fit.
Bo Robert Atkinson
well said, in support, here is an example of upgrading with 20V batteries for older 18v tools: https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCA1820-Dewalt-Battery-Adapter/dp/B016K1UD0E
matt
A standard for all batteries would be really awesome.. Will never happen but it sure would be nice..
Jay
Reading the info on “ah” brings light to why this is happening more and more so…. I wonder will there ever be a true plateu when power tools literally can’t get any better?
Stuart
It’s hard to say, but there are different directions things can go in. For one, larger and continuous-use tools can still use more power than 4.0 Ah. Then, there’s also the potential to make battery cells smaller or with even greater charge density. Who wouldn’t want a 4.0Ah battery pack the size of today’s 1.5Ah packs?
Look at smartphone batteries. My 3G phone was capable of running full day, even a day and a half. My Samsung Galaxy Nexus 4G phone can barely last a work day with light use, and I’m using it with an extended capacity battery.
With batteries, there’s still a lot of room for improvements.
Javier
There’s still plenty of improvement left for power tools. I really like the size of 12v tools and possibly one day even the most heavy duty 18v tools will be compact enough to be the same size as todays 12 volts. There’s still plenty of features todays cordless tools don’t even have that nearly all gadgets do such as lcd displays. May seem gimmicky to most of you but I bet you wouldn’t see yourself without them when they come out. I imagine tools would have an lcd display to display remaining power in 1% increments, display tool settings like torque, rpm, and have a menu or settings feature to adjust torque, rpm, economy mode for long battery life, high performance mode, also recommended settings for the type of material you’re working with. At first the displays will be low res and in black and white with physical buttons, then in color and lastly in high res with touchscreen controls. Also these smart tools will let you know whats going on and communicate with you by letting you know if they are overheating, low battery – time to replace, time to service tool, tool failure with codes similar to cars, usage stats, could also pair with your smartphone via bluetooth or whatever tech we have in those days and use an app. Wireless charging where you place your battery on a mat and it charges automatically (this technology is available today). Todays cordless tools can still be more powerfull, I see them being as powerfull as corded one day. What about the wasted space in cordless tools like the handle? I think they can ditch the handle as being part of the tool and instead make the battery the handle. This would mean a lighter tool and could save on production costs for the manufacturer. A compact battery would be the handle itself and a high capacity battery would be the handle with a bit of bulk below it such as a typical battery adds bulk to the codless tool. I feel this is what the tools of the future will be like.
Stuart
While some of those features might be nice, they’re not really needed by most users.
You might be surprised to hear that some tools do log a whole lot of usage information that service centers or perhaps just HQ engineers can tap into.
Matt
I’d be interested to see if there is any cross-compatibility between the Dewalt, Porter Cable, and Black and Decker 20v platforms…all the batteries look pretty similar, and it’d be nice (considering they are all the same parent company) if you could mix and match tools and batteries among these systems (even if there was a little modding involved).
Ross
Agreed. The only one I would add to the list is the Stanley FatMax cordless line. The drill looks almost identical to the Dewalt drills.
On a similar thought, are the new 18 volt Dewalt batteries from Europe compatible with the 20v Max line?
Stuart
20V Max = 18V XR, so the tools and battery packs should be perfectly interchangeable.
Stuart
I would think that there would have to be a lot of physical modding involved, although it would be nice if there were adapters available.
John
Coming across this post rather late, but for others who may find this useful: The B&D 20v LI battery packs can fit into the Porter+Cable chargers, if you are willing to do a little modding. I was at the store looking for a charger and noticed that the B&D charger (going for something like $40) looked identical to the P+C charger (that was on clearance for $19), so I took the chance and bought the P+C one. Got back to the shop and tried the B&D battery, but it would not slide all the way in. After a little observation at both batteries, I noticed that there was a tab on the right side of the P+C charger (looking at it from the back where you would slide the battery in.) Its on the bottom of the slide, and you will notice that its not on the other side. So I drilled it out and cleaned it out a bit with a sharp knife, and was then able to slide the B&D battery in! It charged up as expected and used that battery all day like I would normally expect. I haven’t tried using a B&D 20v LI battery in a P+C tool yet (since I don’t have one ….yet), so I’m not sure if you can use them if the P+C tools also have that tab. In theory you should be able to drill the tab out on the tool as well, but that might be a tad drastic if it turns out to not work…..not to mention it will void any warranty.
walt
Had the same discovery last year. You can reach total compatibility between 20v B&D and PC chargers, batteries, and tools by modifying those little plastic blockers.
Kenduro
I got excited after reading this thread + the reviews on the new PC line. I have PC 18v nicad stuff that was OK< but batteries not too good, plus a lot of DeWalt 14.4v stuff, but trying to decide what system to upgrade to. Was considering the Rigid because of the warranty and becuase I thought it was nice how Ryobi (less pro version of Rigid) made all there new batteries work on all the old ni-cad tools. So, contemplating all the possibilites and reading stuff here about DEwalt, PC and B&D under one roof, I grabbed the batt from my DeWalt 20v Max impact driver and went to Lowes, because they have the other 2 brands. I was somewhat limited by all the anti-theft strapping etc. but was able to slide the batt 1/2 way into the PC tool until it was stopped by the plastic strip mentioned above, which could be easily removed. There is about a 5/8 inch air gap between the tool handle and top of battery pack because the PC batts have a taller head above the alignment ribs that into the tool, so they will probably not be able to go back into the DeWalt tool. I could'n't verify if the electrical contacts would line up because the rib on the display model prevented full insertion. This was a bummer, because I was hoping I could manage a way to mix DW 20v with PC 20v , but at best it would be a one way exchange, and no PC batts could be used in my DEwalt impact, which I love.
On another note, while at Home Depot I noticed another plus for the Ryobi line is the new comer "multi purpose" tool head will interchange at least one way with the Rigid accesories for those heads. Couldn't determine if opposite will work, which would be better for me, cause I'd likely by the Rigid system and batts, and maybe buy a few lower priced Ryobi"specialized" heads for infrequent use.
They could make things a lot simpler. A smart company could make some money building Li Ion batt systems for the millions of old Nicad tools out there. I hope this good info keeps coming in on these threads.
thanks for the time to post – Kenduro
Joe
To be honest I love the 18 volt line their tools are equal and some are better than the higher priced makitas ,milwaukees ,dewalts and bosches out there.Even though the new 20 volt system looks good how much bertter can it be when the other companies tools are no better than porter cables 18 volt line.
Jerry
Yup, one of my pet peeves. A guy pieces together a nice setup of cordless tools, all using compatible batteries and chargers, and they change the platform. So does one buy a replacement tool to utilize existing batteries, when it pukes out, or does one buy the new platform, and go through having two kinds of batteries, chargers, etc? Either way, I feel lome I’m going to waste a couple hundred bucks. I was originally 14.4 volt, and made the final transition to 18 volt, which I think was a signal to tool companies to go to 20V Max systems.
Tyler M.
I posted this on another article here already, but I \found the new PC 20v Max tools at Lowes the other day. They also have the B&D 20v Max tools. The pin positions and slides are identical between the two. They didn’t have any unattended batteries lying around so I couldn’t toss one in the other brand. I’ve wondered about the Stanley Fatmax batteries too but the slides look slightly different. I think the pin position is the same though. The Dewalt 20v Max batteries are completely different than either of them.
I’ve personally never minded the larger Ni-Cad batteries. My stepdad bought an early Lithium-Ion Milwaukee drill and does not like it in the least. Within months they had released the M18 line and now he’s basically stuck with a drill he doesn’t like and can’t get batteries for. One thing I’ve always wondered, why hasn’t anyone ever made NiMH batteries. Same size and weight as Ni-Cad but longer life, no battery memory and cheaper than Lithium-Ion.
Jason
They did make a few tools with NiMH batteries, but they didn’t last long on the market L-ion came out and that’s what the market went for. You can have old nicad packs rebuilt with nimh cells. You should still be able to get v18 batteries my local hd had them on the rack
mnoswad1
I always wondered the same thing…….Makita did do NiMh batteries a while back though.
http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/image/Staples/s0481302_sc7?$splssku$
Tyler M.
I’ve seen the rebuild services that offer NiMh. Almost had my old Firestorm batteries rebuilt by Voltman. Didn’t really have an overwhelming need for them at the time so I went ahead and sold them. It seems like most of the time once you go for a 3.0 mah Lithium Ion battery it’s the same size as a NiCad. I’ve seen NiMh cells between 5 and 6 mah. Seems to me that would be the most economical choice.
freebore
Milwaukee’s V18 versus M18 was a huge customer-alienating mistake. V18 was hurried too early out of the gate and they failed to do three things- make allowances for future smaller size batteries, make a future-proof compatible charging system, and account for the production differences of the inevitable move to China (the moment TTi took over).
As a result “Milwaukee LiIon 18V” has become short-hand among tool guys for “screwing over customers”.
DeWalt’s old 18V did have NiMH batteries as well as modern LiIon, which work in ALMOST all of their 18V tools, and as mentioned, Makita, and Panasonic 15.6V NiMH. The problem with NiMH is they are not well suited for tool use- they do better with moderate, long term loads (like electronics) than quick energy dumps (electric motors).
Carmelo
Milwaukee’s V18/ M18 debacle drove me away from them. At the time i had their nicad set (I was also a diehard fan/user, 90% of my tools were Milwaukee’s ) and after a while the four batteries could no longer hold a charge and one of the chargers just stopped. I replaced all four batteries and two chargers with V18’s, only to see a month or so later online that they are releasing M18 tools, abandoning the V18.
I tried the LiIon Makita and i haven’t looked back.
Joe
On those batteries is there a nub that can be filed down to make them fit or are they totally different.
AL
Thats why I stick with Ryobi! All their 18v batteries interchange with all of thier 18v tools. The price is good and there tools are just as good as the yellow and red tools. There all made in china! I work with and alongside with all of the brands no problems.
mike
I recently bought into the PC 20v max line. I have Dewalt at work and my old Dewalt 12v I had here at home the batteries couldnt hold a charge anymore. So I got ther drill,impact,and tigersaw so far. Discovered today they have 4.0 ah batteries for this system. they can be had purchased on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FQ8OHJ6/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
A bit pricey(what battery isnt) but the runtime should be very nice.
Tom
Folks,
The Black and Decker and Porter Cable 20v batteries are essentially interchangeable. There is a small “notch” on the right side (looking into the connector) of a Porter Cable battery. The “notch” is on the left side of a Black and Decker. The adding of a “notch” on the other side is trivial with a Dremel. It literally takes less than a minute. After which anyone’s battery fits anyone’s tool or charger.
Amazon gets $66 for a B&D 4AH battery while a Porter Cable goes for $91.50.
Just FYI,
Tom
Stuart
Nope, it is NOT recommended that users do such modifications. Just because you can make the batteries physically fit together does NOT mean they are interchangeable. Different cells and circuitry mean that you should only pair power tools with their recommended batteries.
Chris T
I understand the modification is not recommended as no company invites modifications to products for multiple reasons. However there is no danger or risk of damage to the battery or tool if used with said notch removal as long as the voltages are compatible as well as orientation of the + and – pins. The temperature pin is only used by the charger an is of no importance while using the tool. The circuitry you speak of is only in the battery case itself. The purpose of the circuitry is to monitor and regulate the charge and discharge of the cells due to the rather dangerous properties of lithium cell technology. With said circuitry in place it would do its job and cut power the tool or to the charge circuit if being charged the second it detected any operation that had the potential to cause damage to either the tool or the battery. As far as the cell differences are concerned most all lithium power tools of any brand use the same standard 18650 lithium cell just like most all laptop batteries. The only differences being the number of cells in the pack, the combination of series/parallel wiring, and the AH capacity of the individual cells. 18650 cells are 3.7 volts or 4.0 volts at “max”, so 3 cells for a 12v std pack or 2 pairs of 3 cells for a 12v ext pack. 5 and 2 pairs of 5 cells for the 20v packs. All of the differences relate only to the voltage and capacity of the pack and present no danger if attempting to make a pack cross compatible, again the circuit in the battery will protect from damage if it were to be likely. Nimh and Nicd batteries typically have no protection circuit in the battery because they do not have the risk of a very violent explosion or thermal runaway like lithium cells do. It is not recommended to attempt modifications using these older battery technologies. You are not in danger yourself without the circuitry, but nobody likes a cooked tool.
Tom
Sorry for the suggestion.
Tom
STEVE PETERS
HEY TOM,
I’VE BEEN INTERCHANGING THE PORTER CABLE AND BLACK AND DECKER 20 VOLT LITHIUM BATTERY PACKS WITHOUT ANY PROBLEM (AFTER A LITTLE TRIMMING)
jsc
i have been doing construction for over twenty years and only major difference is that porter cable tools are just flat less expensive than any red, yellow or blue brands. i used to always run out and buy the hot new tools but as i got a little older i found i like to keep more of my money in my ass pocket. i have done commercial construction including doors and hardware and they last just as long as any other brand. a crossfit adapter would be nice but i have noticed a drop in price on pc 18v two packs and all brands are cheaper at christmas time so bite the bullet and stock up at that time. im just saying…
Patrick
I just want to confirm from my own experience what Tom, Chris and Steve were discussing: Porter Cable 20v Max and Black & Decker 20v Max batteries ARE interchangeable — with some minor modification. The batteries are functionally identical, with identical pins, polarity and slide tracks; the only difference is, as Tom noted, a notch in the slide track on one side versus the other between the two brands. Also the BD slide track has a butt at one end that the PC doesn’t; it too has to be shaved off to fit nicely on a PC tool. The mods are obvious if you have both a PC and a BD 20v battery to compare.
I bought the BD 20v Max vacuum to go with my PC set since PC doesn’t (yet) make a vac in the 20v line; with the mods, it all works interchangeably just fine. Charging too. Battery fits fine, isn’t loose. Perfectly doable — but you have to study the batteries and be willing to make some surgical cuts to the plastic track of the BD. It’s not difficult with an oscillating tool, dremel and/or drill, but it’s more than a matter of snipping off a tab with some scissors.
Stuart
I’m going to repeat that, even though it’s possible, it this might not be a good idea. Hooking up a battery pack with stronger cells to a tool that draws less power than it was designed for will probably have better results than hooking up a battery pack with weaker cells to a tool that draws more power than it was designed for. It depends on how smart the batteries, tools, and chargers are.
That being said, one of these days I need to peek inside Black & Decker and new Porter Cable 20V Max battery packs. For all I know, maybe they’re using the same cells with the same electronics and power ratings.
Eric
Is Stuart a battery salesman? Just sayin’.
Curtis T
Stuart, your initial post spoke about 18v to 20v, the conversation has move to 20v B&D interchangeable with 20v PC. Same voltage.
austin
I am looking to buy a battery powered weed trimmer. I read somewhere that porter cable batteries fit in black and decker products. Do you know if my porter cable 18v li ion will fit in their products, specifically a trimmer?
Stuart
They won’t fit.
Brett
Hi is there a difference between the (red & black) (black & grey) Porter Cable 18v Lithium EX batteries
Stuart
I believe that the black and grey batteries may be older. Or maybe they have slightly less capacity, I’m not sure.
Larry M
I just want to add that I did this mod today. Not for the faint of heart! Perhaps they changed the drill or battery design, but it was definitely much more than a one minute job with the dremel. I used a drill press as a milling machine and it took me at least a half hour. The biggest time consumer was milling out the back side of the battery toward the lock where the slide from the tool meets the battery. It was necessary to cut so much out that the inside of the battery case was opened up.
It is working now, and I have siliconed the holes shut, but I will not be doing this mod to my second battery.
Steve Adams
I still have a Porter Cable 19.2v cordless router #2902 that I use about every week. It is the handiest power tool I have. When we have just a short amount of routing to do it saves having to run cords and sometimes a generator on the job. I am starting to have trouble finding the batteries for it and was wondering if any of the other Porter Cable batteries would work?
Brad
Just want to add a clarifying question here… Are the pin locations (polarity) the same between the Black & Decker 18V and Black & Decker 20V Max product lines?
The reason I ask this question is that if you look at this thread you’ll see a comment from Brian where he indicates that the Stanley FatMax 20V has the pins in different locations…
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/stanley-fatmax-20v-hammer-drill-fmc620la/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
Whitlow
The Stanley Fatmax 20V Max batteries will fit and work in Porter Cable 20V Max tools. The Stanley Fatmax batteries have a bump on the top tht needs to be removed. I tested the Stanley Fatmax batteries in a Porter Cable drill and charger and also on Black and Decker 20V weed trimmer. The Black and Decker batteries require more work since they have a slant at the front that prevents them fro going in all the way into other B&D brands such as Bostitch, Stanley Fatmax, and Porter Cable.
Brad
Thanks for the info ^^^ Whitlow. The fact that you could charge the Stanley battery with the Porter Cable charger confirms the compatibility more than anything.
I’ll cut and paste below the comment about the FatMax charger not charging the B&D battery. It’s one unconfirmed comment though, so take it with a grain of salt.
Brian wrote…
“For sh!t’s & giggles, i removed some of the plastic from the B&D 20v battery to see if it will fit in the FatMax 20 Volt Max charger.
It does fit…. how ever, The Stanely/B&D company must have wired the polarity different on either the battery or the charger. Because when the B&D battery is put into the FatMax charger, You get a red blinking light.
I assume this is a safety light that is blinking,”
Again, the above is not my comment – just re-posting as an FYI.
Brad
Another data-point in the “20V Max” world…. It would seem that the Craftsman 20V Max and B&D 20V Max are fully compatible without requiring any mods. I’ve read in a couple different places now that batteries/tools/chargers are all cross-compatible.
The Craftsman chargers seem to be readily available for about $25 on eBay vs $40 for the comparable B&D charger.
P.S. Don’t get confused by the “Craftsman Professional 20V” product line. That’s a discontinued product line that is incompatible (as best as I can tell).
Whitlow
Hey Brad I charged my Black and Decker 20 Volt 4 Amp battery for my Black and Decker weed trimmer in my Stanley Fatmax charger the other day because I could not find the crappy Black and Decker charger that came with it. It works! and didn’t overheat nor did I notice any heat. But I had made some mods to the slider to try and make the 20V 4amp fit my drill. So it fits the charger, but not the Porter Cable or Stanley Fatmax drill because of the slant which would really look bad if I attempt to cut that.
From what I can tell the polarities are all the same and they are all 20 Volts when charged, but some are sold as 18 Volts like the Bostitch now sold at my area Wal-marts. From what I can tell they keyed the chargers and Batteries so they don’t fit each other. But Dewalt’s are different using more connectors, etc.
If anyone lives a Menard’s that still has some Stanley Fatmax 20V chargers and batteries cheap I would not mind some. 🙂
Stanley now says the Fatmax line is non-USA only even though it was once sold at Walmart and Menards.
Binh
Did you have to modify the slides on the Black and Decker Max 20v before it would fit into the Fatmax 20v charger? Menards has the charger for $6.99 plus shipping that I’m tempted to purchase.
Brad
Just to add another data-point here for those of us interested in cross-breading, in the interest of having one battery type for all our cordless tools…
Someone recently gave me a couple 2008-dated Black & Decker 18V Ni-Cad tools, chargers, and one dead battery. My goal was to power the tools with B&D 20V Max batteries. Lots of differences here. The 18V batteries use male spades which are located in different locations from the 20V Max batteries which use female contacts.
On the bench with jumpers, I can power the 18V tools with the 20VMax batteries no problem. Physically, the formats are similar, so I’m sure I could sort that part out with a file and/or Dremel. But electrically I’d need to replace the contacts on the tools and move them around; probably most easily done using some of the low-end chargers that are often included with the tools (part# LCS 1620). Not an impossible task, but probably not worth messing with for a couple of consumer grade yard tools.
Brad
Never mind what I said above. I took another look at those 18V B&D tools and the Craftsman 20V Max battery (same as B&D 20V Max). The battery slides in a good portion of the way with a friction fit before hitting a hard stop about an inch away from the contacts. With very little effort, I made two ~3″ long jumper wires with male spades on both ends. The 18V tools and 20V Max batteries are conveniently marked with “+” and “-” so that even a caveman can connect the circuits properly.
I used both tools (hedge trimmer and weed whacker) yesterday without issue, re-charging the battery a couple times. The friction fit kept the battery in place without issue and the jumper wires never came loose. The tool starts to slow down when the voltage gets around 13V. I never pushed it to the point where the battery would shut off. I assume that would happen, but haven’t verified.
I can only assume that PC 18V tools and 20V Max batteries would behave in a similar manner.
To be clear, I have the correct 20V Max LiOn charger for the 20v Max LiOn battery. That is a requirement.
Tool Electronics
NiMH cells are designed for 2.1 to 2.2 volts at full charge. You can charge them in series but stronger cells will not get as much charge as the weaker ones, leading to less than stellar battery performance over time.
Lithium-Ion cells have operating voltages of 2.5 (absolute minimum) to 4.2 (absolute maximum) with “normal” being charged fast to 3.8 volts then slow-charged to 4.0 for full capacity. Over-voltage charging may damage the cells.
Most Li-Ion chargers include internal circuitry to sense per-cell voltage and adjust the individual cell charge current and voltage to meet these specifications. Discharge below 2.5 volts may damage the cells. Some (most…?) Lithium cells have built-in circuitry that will open-circuit the cell if its internal voltage drops to 2.5 volts. This is in the form of a coin-sized FET (Field-Effect_Transistor) that is turned ON by voltages above 2.5 volts and resets to OFF at voltages lower than 2.5 volts. ON-voltage drop across these FET devices is usually in the range of 0.05 volts per device, so this protection does not significantly reduce available cell voltage.
Li-ion chargers usually have inter-cell connections that allow the charger to sense voltage for each cell, or pair of cells. This allows the charger to “equalize the charge” between cells. This is important for safety and lifespan reasons. Using older series style Ni-CAD or Ni-MH chargers on Li-ion cells is not advised for the above reasons.
It is usually possible to re-battery tool battery holders with the same style cells as they were originally filled with, but changing cell types is not recommended for safety and longevity reasons.
There is some question and confusion regarding the difference between 18 volt Li-ion batteries and 20 volt Li-ion batteries. Assuming a nominal voltage of 3.8 for each Li-Ion cell, it would take 4.7 cells to obtain 18 volts output. Assuming a nominal voltage of 3.8 volts for each Li-Ion cell it would take 5.26 cells to make up a 20 volt battery pack. Seems obvious that there is some sales department magic going on here with the 18 volts versus 20 volt battery packs. It would appear that both size battery packs are probably made up of 5 cells and have a nominal output of 19 volts. Check this with your own voltmeter to see what is actually going on.
Li-ion cells last longer if only charged to 3.8 volts, which is 80% of maximum charge. If charged to this value they will stand many more charge-discharge cycles than if they are repeatedly charged to the maximum of 4.2 volts.
That said…I too would like to see a standard case and standard connections for Li-Ion tool batteries. Problem seems to be that the sales and advertising departments will probably never let that happen.
Brad
Thanks for the write-up. To be clear (agreeing with you), you always need to use the correct charger for any given battery type.
Bill
Yeah PC won’t be supporting LI on 18 volt for long. Just looked up the EX version on Lowes website and price has gone for low 100’s to over $150! Really mad I made this investment. Will be going to Dewalt in the future
Brad
Stanley Black & Decker, Inc will be thrilled if you move from buying their Porter Cable products to the more expensive DeWalt.
TerenceC
It’s been stated here that the dewalt 20v max is not compatible on a fitment level but I think it’s safe to say it’s also bout the same as the rest internally.. that is problematic for me as I have what I NEED for tools and they are yellow, what I WANT is for lesser used tools to be of cheaper colors but still be able to utilize my yellow batteries and charger. I’m not sure I’d want to risk any long term effects to any of my more spendy tools.. so how much diferant are the physical aspects of the dewalt vs the pc? Also, thank you all as I’ve been looking for a conversation such as this for hours. I have one more concern that I didn’t see mentioned, with the dewalt line at least the low voltage shut off is part of the tool and not the battery, is it the same for the other battery packs in this 20v max line up? I’d hate to find out the expensive way..
Brad
– The DeWalt 20V Max line has the low-voltage shut off in the TOOL.
– The DeWalt 18V line has the low-voltage shut-off in the BATTERY.
– The Porter-Cable/Black&Decker/Craftsman/Stanley 20V Max tools all have the shut-off circuitry in the BATTERY.
From a practical standpoint, what does this mean?
1) An adapter from DeWalt 18V tools to DeWalt 20V Max batteries needs to have some additional “intelligence” in the adapter which takes it out of the realm for most DIY-adapter folks. But this is what DeWalt has already announced, and is due to be shipping “soon”.
2) An adapter from DeWalt 18V tools to Black&Decker 20V batteries is much more do-able since they both have the shut-off circuitry in the battery. I’ve already run this combo on the bench with jumper wires. The biggest challenge is just about getting an adapter made that allows the physical 20V Max battery interface connected to the pod-style 18V interface; basically, the same thing DeWalt has created with their announced adapter, but without the requirement for voltage monitoring that their adapter must have. I’m planning to build one from an old dead 18v battery and a Craftsman 20V Max drill that I’ll hack apart.
3) Dewalt 20V Max to Black&Decker 20V Max is a no-go. You’d have physical incompatibility as well as electrical.
TerenceC
Thanks brad. That’s everything I was looking for. Not the answer I wanted to hear, but not at all suprising.. I’ll just stick with corded tools for the rest of my arsenal. The I e thing I do want options for is a radio, which I sapose will have to be a hack job as I can’t stand having more than one battery, and I’m not at all satisfied with the dewalt radios offered.. shouldn’t be too hard to graft dewalts usb adapter to the back of any 18/20v radio… Probably the best option for building an adapter to other tools as well..
TerenceC
Thanks brad. That’s everything I was looking for. Not the answer I wanted to hear, but not at all suprising.. I’ll just stick with corded tools for the rest of my arsenal. The I e thing I do want options for is a radio, which I sapose will have to be a hack job as I can’t stand having more than one battery, and I’m not at all satisfied with the dewalt radios offered.. shouldn’t be too hard to graft dewalts usb adapter to the back of any 18/20v radio… Or maybe hack up the new dewalt to dewalt adapter.. guess I need to go to Lowe’s and compare things in person..
TerenceC
Done deal!! Pc radio + dewalt flashlight = yellow powered grey.. I’d add pics but not sure it’s doable here.. I grafted the base of the flashlight into the back of the radio, then reused the board in the flashlight.. this method, however won’t work for higher powered tools. The leads to the led in the flashlight only supply 3v so the ground has to be connected directly to the battery ground before the board, this will supply the 18v the radio wants.
Brad
Pics please! If you’re on the Garage Journal forum this thread might be a good one to post them to….
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250536
TerenceC
Pics posted at the above url page 5 of that topic..
DanielF
I know batteries themselves all use the same technology. It’s a shame that Stanley B&D don’t use a standard battery design in all of their tools. I am sick and tired of corporations always making us jump through hoops.
A standardised battery would make life easier for diys and us pros. And most people would stick to batteries with their “brand of choice” be it Dewalt, PC or whatever.
The only thing proprietary batteries do is make life frustrating for us the customer.
Dave
I picked up 2 20v PC max batteries at lowes for $10 each. Would like to use the batteries to re-cell my 18v PC LI batteries.
I gather the batteries inside are the same.
Will it work to move the batteries from one case to the other?
Matt
I noticed that you did NOT insert the 18v lithium battery in the 18v NiCad drill. I am sure that you know as well as I do that these are compatible. I use the 18v lithium without any issues in all my 18v NiCad tools. I have a dual charger also. I would seem that Porter Cable saw they made a “mistake” in favor of the consumer so they had to change the battery design in order to sell the tools.
Stuart
I didn’t think it was necessary to show that the 18V battery was compatible with the 18V tool.
Sky Matthews
Well, the final nail is in the coffin. At this point, it is impossible to purchase 18V Lithium Porter Cable batteries anywhere. Unfortunately, I outfitted my entire crew with PC 18V Lithium in 2014 so we are dead in the water. The NiCad batteries are a non-starter for us (far too heavy with too little work time between charges). We can have batteries rebuilt but we can no longer purchase new ones.
I will be looking long and hard before I lock in with another vendor like this. It is time for some battery standards across tool lines.
Sky Matthews
As an FYI – there is a guy selling adapters which allows the use of 20V batteries on 18V tools. I have no idea how well it works but it is worth considering.
http://techneesh.com/
Jeff Winchester
Sky, have you bought one of these? I’m considering it, but I want to make sure it’s not some hacked product that fries my drill/driver.
jcs
Your tool wouldn’t get fried!!!…. the only thing that would get fried would be the conversion circuitry in the adapter/converter if it wasn’t able to supply enough amperage to your tool!!!
D.Stone
i like the porter cables.the dam impact went up in smoke faster than i had hoped.but,nice set the 20v porters…everything else in the set is going strong getting used everyday… i think 1 1/2 maybe 2 years now…(side by side with my 5yo makita set) but,half the price.the porter impact kind of piss me off.. side note.. 1 of the porters battery will not charge now blinking red…
Rob Howard
I purchased the 18 volt lithium set when they came out a few years after Porter Cable discontinued the series. Like most people that bought them I feel screwed, because I have 700 dollars invested in the tools and can no longer get lithium batteries for them. When I contacted Porter Cable told me that I would have to buy NiCad batteries to continue to use the tools. Up until this point I liked Porter Cable tools, and I have a lot of them including A/C powered tools. Screw me once… , I will never buy another Porter Cable tool again
Jim Kline
Are 20v dewalt and porter cable batteries the same?
Stuart
No.
Mark Alan Drechsler
I need new 18v batteries for my porter cable tools!
They might be dicscontinued but I have a set of them that I want to keep using. They are not ready to be thrown away! PC does not have them- horrible! Amazon has Chinese batteries that suck! Where can I get replacements! Help!
Stuart
Have you contacted Porter Cable? They should be able to point you towards current inventory somewhere.