A few years ago, users were clamoring for cordless power tool batteries that were engineered with pouch-style Li-ion cells. Now? I can’t remember the last time someone has asked about this.
Dewalt has 3 sizes of 20V Max PowerStack batteries, and they’re quite good. Milwaukee has a single M18 Forge battery with pouch cells. Flex has a bunch.
But what about brands like Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, and Ridgid? They skipped straight to higher output “tabless” cells in the 21700 size format. Dewalt and Milwaukee each have 2 sizes of high output tabless batteries.
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Some brands don’t seem interested in modernizing yet, such as Craftsman and Festool.
What I realized today is that folks simply stopped asking about pouch cell batteries. I get asked about tabless batteries fairly regularly, but there’s no more chatter about pouch cells.
What does this mean for the cordless power tool industry?
For one, pouch cells are more complicated to engineer. Each of Dewalt’s 3 sizes, for example, have different cells. When it comes to tabless cylindrical cells, however, brands can use the same cells in 4Ah (1-row), 8Ah (2-row), and 12Ah (3-row) batteries.
Pouch cells allow for fine-tuning of properties for a customized balance between size, power delivery, and runtime.
With tabless battery cells, brands can run the same cells in different arrangements.
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Pouch cells have more shortcomings than cylindrical cells, tabless or traditional, such as in regard to thermal dissipation.
On one hand, existing pouch cell batteries have some advantages. Dewalt’s compact PowerStack battery, with 1.7Ah charge capacity, is extremely small and lightweight.
Dewalt now has a 4Ah PowerPack battery with tabless cells, as well as 3.5Ah and 5Ah PowerStack batteries with pouch cells. They also have legacy batteries with 18650 cylindrical cells, higher output 21700 cell batteries that have since lost XR branding, and FlexVolt batteries.
There’s some overlap, and it seems Dewalt isn’t promoting their PowerStack batteries as much as they did a few years ago.
Does anyone think Bosch should make pouch cell batteries? Makita?
Pouch cells lose to tabless when it comes to heat dissipation and duty cycle at higher charge capacities, but pouch cells seem to have advantages below that threshold, wherever it’s drawn.
Milwaukee’s M18 Forge 8Ah and 12Ah tabless cell batteries can be charged to 80% in 35 minutes and 100% in 45 minutes using their dual bay simultaneous charger. Their Forge 6Ah battery features pouch cells and can recharge to 80% and 100% in 15 and 25 minutes, respectively.
The 8Ah tabless battery has 33% greater charge capacity than the 6Ah pouch battery, but takes 133% longer to charge to 80% and 80% longer to charge to 100%.
That’s not a small difference, for 33% greater capacity to take 80% to 133% longer to recharge depending on the stopping point.
Milwaukee made a good call in shaping FORGE as their name for premium battery technologies. It took some time, but Dewalt followed suit and stripped away XR branding from all of their cordless power tool batteries that don’t have either pouch or tabless cells.
See Also: Dewalt XR Batteries – What Does this Mean?
Pouch vs tabless makes for a messy comparison, with very conditional benefits to both.
But when it comes to popularity and cordless power tool user interests, it seems there’s definitely been a downwards trend for pouch cell batteries.
I wonder if we’ll see any more. Just 3 cordless power tool brands have pouch cells, 4 if you count Positec’s CAT. Am I missing any? Meanwhile, more brands have been announcing tabless cell batteries, with Metabo and Metabo HPT to be among the most recent.
Or have users simply been voicing their interests more quietly?
In the context of cordless power tools, when is the last time you wondered if new tabless batteries would be coming out, and when’s the last time you wondered about pouch cells?
William
I imagine that at some point we’ll reach the apex of cordless tools for most users in most applications. There are almost no portable power tools that aren’t cordless. Now that much of the ecosystem has been invented, it will come down to making the batteries smaller, lighter, denser, and cheaper. At some point you’ll have diminishing returns for size and weight. And for that matter cost.
I cannot think of a tool I own that I wish was cordless that doesn’t already have a cordless option.
Once the batteries are good enough, I don’t really care what technology they use.
Maybe this is why DeWalt and Milwaukee have been focusing more on the really big batteries for the plate compactors, and generators. Other than updated versions and general improvements, where else can you innovate?
Kyle
I haven’t seen a replacement for an air chisel. Maybe the sds’s would do the trick but that’s a giant tool instead of a one hand gun
Chris
There must not be a big enough market for cordless air chisel replacements. SDS hammers do work but as you mentioned, they are massive.
A recip saw also does pretty well with the right attachment if you’re just scraping paint or rust. Or thin vinyl tile.
I believe we could be close to having the technology to have a viable replacement. I saw a video of the m12 palm nailer which had a mechanism similar to an impact driver. If that thing can sink 16p nails, why not throw a scraper on it?
Julian Tracy
I’ve used my m12 palm nailer with air chisel hammer tips for pounding out dents in bumpers and hammering on ball joints to seat.
Doresoom
Milwaukee filed a patent for one a few years ago: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20220371172A1/en
ITCD
I think future big breakthroughs in batteries or other highly-portable energy tech will invite a new round of cordless tools, just with things that really aren’t that good in current cordless form or perhaps downright impossible with current tech.
Bill
Agreed here especially with impacts. The torque is at the point to stripping bolts/screws and drivers are compact to the point of being smaller than one’s fist. I honestly fray away from upgrading my impacts for fear of stripping bolts.
Most tools are close to if not at the pinnacle as well. Ones that are not are likely low sellers not worth the investment.
I don’t see companies making batteries cheaper for the buyer. It seems they want to push the specs up to tag on an upcharge instead.
Personally I would prefer for brands to focus on durability more. I pay for durability over extreme specs. Though that goes against the mindset of needing customers to upgrade every few years.
Steven Phillips
They’re just not all much better and cost more to produce so they cost more and the consumers just aren’t all that excited about them. Tabless has kind of passed out by already, yes.
Matt_T
As a Bosch user I’m not interested in pouch batteries. Main reason is IME pouch batteries don’t last near as long as cylindrical. I’ve got 10+ year old Bosch, and IR, batteries that are still good. I can’t recall anything I’ve owned with a pouch battery that wasn’t degraded, or dead, around the 5 year mark.
It’s just not worth it for maybe a little less weight. Bosch tools don’t need “high power” batteries to work. And I could care less about charging speed.
Pavel
Since I’m in Flex ecosystem, I’m fine with pouch cells. I’ve 3.5Ah, 6Ah and 10Ah batteries that were part of a kit when Rona was blowing out Flex tools (when Lowes abandoned Canada) at 50+% off. Some tools that I’ve got (rear handle circ saw that come with 10Ah battery and a rapid charger) was cheaper that just the same battery at other retailers. I think that I’ve paid around $250 Canadian or less.
Lance
I was VERY tempted to jump on some of those deals! The 10A saw kits are beasts… I just don’t need more tools or another battery system! Lol.
Jronman
Seems like Ego has something cooking. I’m not sure what it is yet but I do know it involves a 70 ah battery for their commercial riding/standon mowers. It would have to be sized nearly the same as the current 40 ah battery because the slot for the battery is just big enough for the 40 ah. I wouldn’t think solid state is ready yet but I could be mistaken. Thats the only battery technology that I can think of that would double the ah in the same footprint.
I also suspect Festool has something in the works too but I don’t have much to go off of. Just got some info at the 100 year event in Indiana there was some stuff shown behind a black curtain that had an NDA attached. Whatever was shown was described as impressive if I remember right. When I tried to ask when the public gets to find out, I was told even that information was part of the NDA. Who knows when we find out but I suspect more powerful stuff is coming with potentially a more powerful battery. Mostly speculation.
JeffS
As someone who has a few pieces of EGO OPE, I wonder if they will release a new generation of battery using tabless, pouch, or some other newer battery technology that are less susceptible to overheating on high draw tools like chainsaws.
Based on an article on this site from last year, it appears Chervon (EGO parent company) might have had a rough 2023. Another article from this year stated that you thought that Flex (another Chervon company) was going nowhere.
Not sure if it would be appropriate analysis for Toolguyd, but it would be interesting to hear if you think Ego might be heading in a similar direction as Flex.
Stuart
When’s the last time EGO launched new cordless outdoor power tools or innovations? EGO has some good tools, and they continue to sell well, but I think they lost a lot of their momentum since separating from Home Depot to partner with Lowe’s. Until something changes, I still think Flex is going nowhere.
OldDominionDIYer
That’s a shame about Flex I like their tools. I have their Hammer Drill and their Circular Saw (7-1/4″) and they are both absolute beasts! Heavy, no doubt, but when I have a big task those are in my truck. I had a battery fail (leak) took a photo, gave the serial number and they sent me a new battery right away, that was nice, not complicated. I think they are solid tools and their portable storage line is quite good as well, but I’m deeply invested in Packout so won’t be buying into their system.
Lyle
I thought the Flex really thin circular saw was a neat innovation. I forget what they call it. They also have a tripod style LED light with removable modules or something that I thought was cool. I wish I could use my Dewalt batteries on some of their stuff.
Doresoom
EGO released quite a few new tools this year:
Compact chainsaw, bluetooth speaker, two new mowers, backpack sprayer, compact pressure washer, oscillating fan, and dethatcher attachment.
https://egopowerplus.com/new/
None of them particularly innovative, but they’re still filling in gaps in their lineup.
NoDak Farming
My brother just picked up a new release weed trimmer from Ego. It has an adjustable length carbon fiber shaft. He bought his after using mine to cut down full grown brome grass, to prepare for a project.
I’m glad to hear that Ego might be working on new battery tech. That’s one of the main reasons I bought into them. Every time I read about them, I’d read that they put a lot of their expertise straight into the batteries.
I often check the “new releases” section of their website and that compact power washer caught my eye right away. If I had enough money, I’d have a tool shed filled with their stuff
Bonnie
That Chainsaw looks like they slapped a new SKU on their existing chainsaw and just put a short bar on it. I could be wrong but is it actually any different?
But it would also have to be available somewhere to buy. Seems like it’s only sold on Amazon and ACE online? Checking EGOs website they’re not even carried by most Lowes in my area, much less anyone else.
Doresoom
Look at the battery orientation, it’s definitely a different design.
For some reason EGO’s products aren’t available from every one of their approved retailers. The 1000 series mowers aren’t available from Amazon, but the 800 series are. The chainsaw is only out of stock at Lowes. The Bluetooth speaker isn’t available from Amazon, but Amazon is one of the few places the new solar panels are available from.
Jronman
The last two years have been massive for Ego. 4-5 dozen products or more if I counted right. Including commercial and homeowner stuff. For Ego that’s a lot of products. I’ve seen growth in the company since the Lowe’s move but at the same time I think the reliability has gone down.
SamR
There are too many good brands under Lowe’s that need to escape, including Ego, ToughBuilt tools, and Craftsman.
Lance
Ego is still rolling out new tools every year. Their new handheld blower is over 800cfm.
They have a new 21700-based 8.0Ah battery, the BA4480T. Reviewers claim it way outlasts the current 7.5Ah battery.
I have no idea why they’re calling it a G3 battery just like their current 18650 batteries which have all been around for years.
Nathan
You might not be getting questions because they e been out a while. I think some uses are better for pouch cell especially smaller weight and size same power. Ratchets some drivers and etc come to mind first
Michael F
The one area I still think Makita should utilize pouch cells is in an XGT “compact” battery. Yes, it will still probably be a bit larger than the LXT compact 2.0 battery. However, if they could use a bunch of pouches shaped like gum sticks and stuck in horizontally, I think they could get a 1.0-1.2Ah XGT battery with maybe ~30% size reduction from the current 2.5Ah XGT battery. It would be much easier to use on tools like the Impact. Admittedly, probably way too small of a potential market for Makita to actually develop it.
Kompahko
The 2.5 xgt battery is fine for work imo because it provides adequate run time. A pouch cell xgt battery would be cool and really cement the idea that xgt can do it all (compact, full size, heavy duty) but I don’t think it’s an absolute necessity.
But theres another brand that could really use a compact battery Hilti Nuron. I feel like they are in the same boat as xgt, but their smallest batteries still have a large footprint
Matt_T
A compact XGT does sound like a reasonable use for pouch cells. I guess the market size depends on how many folks go XGT only. I suspect a lot are also running an 18v, or maybe 12v, platform for smaller tools.
Lance
Makita need to release ANYTHING new for their 18v LXT battery lineup… all of their current designs are over 10 years old and falling way behind.
Pouch cells could be the way forward until they convince themselves to embrace their 18v X2 layout and update everything to work with 21700 packs.
Bonnie
They seem to want to abandon LXT entirely, but just can’t compete with themselves with XGT so it keeps limping along.
Stuart
No. Visualize something 80% larger than the PowerStack 1.7Ah, but with less thermal endurance than the XGT 2.5Ah.
Frankly, the 10-cell 2.5Ah battery size is fine. I don’t think there’s enough market interest in a far more complicated and more expensive battery that delivers very little size or weight savings.
Roger
It would be similar to drills. Nobody really is asking for new drills. Every year or so you have an “update”. It’s kind of like cellphones. Honestly, some of the stuff that should be updated isn’t. Everything should have been brushless by now.
A tool battery of 18V(20V) of a certain AH rating will be about adequate even if the size is single digit millimeters and/or grams in difference. Using Dewalt, a 5AH regular cell pack is the pinnacle of that size and weight ratio. It holds just enough for most of the day. Its not bigger than a 3 or 4 AH. It’s cheaper and smaller than a tabless 6AH and 5AH pouch. If you’re offering it in deals, more people will be going in that direction. A 3-5 second “performance advantage” isn’t much to write home about.
HOWEVER, if the technology could be applied to something like the FLEXVOLT packs to reduce size and weight. OR get more AH into a similar size and weight. That, might get some attention.
Will
They definitely need a tabless flexvolt. I have the 20″ 60v chainsaw and the 9″ angle grinder. The 9ah flexvolt doesn’t meet the power demand, the 12ah overheats and does worse under this load . The 15ah does better, but I’m not sure it meets demand, as I can still stall the grinder with it. It’s also, a big heavy brick. A 12ah tabless flexvolt would be a very needed improvement for these big tools.
Alvin
This guy gets it! Thank you friend! I’ve had these exact same thoughts since the pouched 5ah came out. It’s bigger, a tic heavier so what’s the improvement?! We’ve had the standard 5ah for going on 15 years and this is all you can come up with?!! I’m not confident that using pouch cells for 60v would solve its issues. And for me, my issue with them is that the cells get out of balance and then they don’t work anymore. It’s infuriating, because they’re at least $150 a pc and by now I have a stack of a half dozen or more paper weights! And I’m a casual user, not nearly every day.
JP454
This is my problem with them also.
When DeWalt first came out with the 1.7ah I loved it. It was small and light. Great for the atomic tools or I used it a lot with the hammer drills when in tight spots. It was great. Big power, tiny package, I didn’t care I had to swap them more often and charge more.
Then they came out with the 5 and I took it out and just thought, why. Why would they design it physically bigger. The standard 5s run everything I need them to. If I need more power and don’t care about size I’ll grab a FlexVolt and have longer runtime also.
I was really just hoping for a 3.4ah version that was just twice as tall.
In the end DeWalt missed their chance with these batteries to offer a smaller physical form that still had the power output of larger. I know you can kind of only pick 2 out of the 3 parameters with batteries; size, power or runtime. DeWalt went power and runtime. I feel like most consumers would have preferred power and size.
MM
I think it really comes down to what work you’re doing. If you’re driving small screws for installing cabinets or putting up electrical you aren’t using much power, and therefore the 5ah powerstack wouldn’t be of any real benefit to you. On the other hand, on a grinder or a circular saw there is a night and day difference between the power of the basic 5ah and the 5ah powerstack.
Batteries that are high runtime and compact size are a thing, but they have a problem too: low power. Like you said, there are three variables but you can only pick two. This is just me guessing here, but I’d think that manufacturers would be wary about that kind of battery, because it’s just asking for customers to misunderstand it and give it poor ratings. Suppose Milwaukee, Dewalt, etc, came out with a tiny battery, low power but had 10ah runtime. Some people would instantly understand what that would be for. But I’d bet money you’d have a whole pile of “influencers” testing the new battery, would find its power disappointing, and then would proceed to give it terrible reviews….all while missing the point entirely.
JP454
Yeah I agree but then it comes down to marketing which they have royally messed up beyond saving at this point, because they keep trying to redefine the same monikers. I know they’re trying kind of but keeping the XR makes all the rest of the attempts confusing.
I still don’t think I get better power out of my 5ah powerstacks than I do my 6ah Flexvolts. Last I checked I think they were roughly the same price, Flex is only slightly larger and I can use it in my 60v tools. So again unless you don’t have any 60v tools, I don’t see the benefit of what they did with the power stack.
Maybe I’m wrong and it has more power and I’m just not noticing.
And I agree it’s reliant on what you’re using them for but I use everything for everything so I like to have options that fit all the needs and I just haven’t really found that the 5powerstack is better for any of them…
ColeTrain
When’s the HPT coming out?… What size? I haven’t bought the rigid one yet but I’m eyeballing it. Stuart, maybe you have addressed this but is there any word of tab less batteries coming out in the higher voltage platforms for OPE stuff? I’m sure there’s a reason but specifically Chevron comes to mind. Ego, kobalt and Skil seems like a no-brainer. 2x the power, 2x the runtime and less weight? Maybe I’m crazy but I can’t think of a power tool category that would benefit more from this than things like lawn mowers, blowers, snow blowers, chainsaws, weed wackers.
Stuart
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/metabo-hpt-tabless-battery/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
Milwaukee added tabless cell batteries to their MX Fuel line. Other than that, XGT, and HPT MultiVolt, I haven’t heard of any other higher voltage cordless system with tabless cells.
Chervon? It’s anyone’s best guess. They seem to be having a lot of problems right now.
Regarding EGO, I don’t see how they can fit tabless cells into their current battery pack form factor. Skil seems focused on value and entry pricing; tabless wouldn’t be a good fit there. Kobalt? Lowe’s hasn’t done much with the XTR line over the years.
Tabless provides an instant upgrade for handheld tool platforms where battery power delivery hit the ceiling. Higher voltage cordless outdoor power tool systems tend to have batteries with a high Li-ion cell count.
In my experience, Dewalt’s FlexVolt cordless snow blower lacks the endurance of OPE-focused system’s. Back when I tested an EGO, the batteries kept running out of juice. I’d charge them, swap them, and get back at it. With Dewalt, the batteries overheated and were done for a while until they cooled down. They didn’t run out of juice, they got too hot.
Milwaukee might need tabless cell packs to power a cordless snow blower, whereas other cordless OPE-specific battery platforms have existing solutions.
To my knowledge, Skil doesn’t have 21700 cell batteries. Neither does Craftsman. I don’t see it happening for Skil, and possibly not Craftsman either. The form factor and cost are not insignificant obstacles.
Milwaukee’s FORGE 8Ah and 12Ah seem very well suited for cordless OPE, beyond the tabless cells. When charged by the new dual bay Super Charger, they cool down and get recharged fairly speedily. Other brands haven’t done that. When a Dewalt FlexVolt battery taps out due to heat, it taps out for a while.
I expect to see more developments over the next few years, and more from some brands than others.
HmmmDusty
It appears that while DeWalt has a fast charger with a fan for ‘battery cooling’, none of their batteries have provisions for air circulation – no vents on the battery cases! Soni can only surmise that when you fast charge your DeWalt batteries, you are simply cooking them.
will
Im intrigued by the carbon silicon batteries that these Chinese companies have been using in their smartphones. They are denser than lithium ion and probably less toxic and dangerous. Would carbon silicon work?
Michael
How are the Ryobi Edge tabless batteries performing so far?
Chris
I’ve found the pouch batteries to be pretty heavy. I recall people touting them as being lightweight, but they’re pretty hefty.
I think instead of different form factors, we should study battery cell technology. There has to be something more powerful with a longer life span than lithium batteries.
Stuart
The electric vehicle industry has been driving battery progress.
There are plenty of potential battery technologies, but Li-ion remains best suited and most cost-effective for rechargeable high power delivery cells.
will
See my post above,carbon silicon is denser and seems to run cooler in the smartphones. Im just not sure if it can handle the heavier demands of tools,specifically OPE tools.
Bonnie
Creating new battery chemistries has been an insanely intensive area of research for ages now. Companies like SBD and TTI are comparatively tiny fish compared to EV and other battery manufacturers, or cell phone manufacturers.
For comparison, LG Energy Solutions (separate from the rest of LG) has over 3x the revenue of either SDB or TTI, and itself is only the third largest manufacturer in the EV battery industry (by either revenue or capacity) after CATL and BYD.
Basically power tool batteries are little more than an also-ran in the overall technological progress of batteries. They’ll take advantage of new developments coming from elsewhere, but these companies aren’t driving much on their own.
OldDominionDIYer
I think that most users never need to get that last tiny bit of performance from their cordless tools that the pouch or tabless batteries provide. I know it is nice to see during those “lab tests” on YOUTUBE but in the real world I think it’s rare that a job completion hinged on whether I had a 6ah tabless or conventional 6ah battery pack. So while I have no doubt they are better batteries, I’m not sure the cost justifies it for most consumers. If my battery runs out, I put another one in and keep going, I am, probably like many, battery rich. The thought never crosses my mind “oh if I had a tabless battery I could get and extra 5 minutes of runtime” It’s just not significant enough for the average consumer.
Nathan
I would like to see a new battery tech model flexvolt battery. It’s about time.
Stuart
It’s not just about temperature endurance; higher output cells often deliver measurable improvement in application speeds.
Higher performance tools tend to follow higher power delivery cells.
Consider how earlier cordless Li-ion circular saws had 6-1/2″ and smaller blade sizes. Improved power delivery and brushless motors made 7-1/4″ saws possible.
Some new battery techs also deliver greater longevity with respect to charge cycles.
It’s not just about on-paper runtime or endurance, there are real-world benefits. Whether it’s worth it to a user or not is a good question, but a moot one in some cases as brands like Milwaukee convert over from previous higher output iterations. You can only get M18 High Output 8Ah and 12Ah batteries with tabless cells now, and the pricing was unchanged. Milwaukee has been converting some kits over, and so users aren’t even paying more for this.
Alexk
Same here. When I see one bar left, I swap out. Often enough I’m close to an outlet to recharge, but even without recharging, I have plenty of batteries. It would be nice to have lighter batteries, but they would have to be affordable. I could see someone doing all day intensive work wanting the lightest battery.
Jared
I was under the impression that, in a general sense, pouch cells offered advantages for small battery packs but once the pack was large enough to accommodate them, tabless was the superior tech. I figured that’s why Dewalt only used pouch cells in their smallest next-gen battery.
If that’s true, then pouch cells have a place – that compact size but high-output recipe could make very small, high-draw tools possible that would be too cumbersome otherwise. It might be a reason Dewalt doesn’t pursue 12v like Milwaukee does M12, since the 20v pouch cell pack is already small.
And yet – most cordless tool don’t need to be ultra-compact. It might be nice for your impact driver or circular saw to be lighter, but a 5ah pack isn’t much of a hindrance. That might relegate small pouch cell batteries to special applications and make tabless the better choice for regular use since high-output is great, but run-time still matters.
Nate
I simply don’t care because it’s not relevant to me. My tools are powerful enough to take my wrist off already, why do I need more? I have a cordless heatgun, for cryin’ out loud, which does just fine on old 18650’s, albeit in a 5s3p pack.
As far as I’m concerned, we’ve hit a plateau beyond which further improvements are diminishingly meaningful. Higher energy capacity for longer runtime might be nice for things like fans and lights that just get turned on and left on, but higher instantaneous power is moot, as far as I’m concerned.
More important than either of those, to me, are safety and longevity. Are those pouches gonna puff up like spicy pillows in a year or two? How do they handle being left in a van parked in the sun? It’s my understanding that the pressure-vessel of a cylindrical cell is important to handling gas buildup, and I’m not clear on why pouches would be an improvement.
ColeTrain
Good point
MM
If I had to guess, I don’t think that people “aren’t interested in pouch batteries” specifically. They are interested in higher power batteries. That used to be synonymous with pouch, but now that tabless packs are a thing the waters are now muddied.
People want more power density, whether that’s big-boy batteries for high power applications, or super compact ones for comfort and convenience. I don’t think they really care what the underlying tech is that gets them there.
Alex
Ego has released lot of new tools in the last couple years: light, fan, vacuum, snow shovel, pressure washer, auger, small tractor, automatic mower, motorcycle, … A detacher and leaf vacuum are coming soon too.
And that’s not even considering what they are doing with their commercial line.
Really I think Ego is one of the fastest innovator in the tools world. Can’t complain at the speed they are coming up with new tools.
Big Richard
Price. If you look at DeWalt, they have two similar capacity batteries on their XR line utilizing both pouch and tabless tech, the pouch 3.5Ah PowerStack and the tabless 4Ah PowerPack. The 3.5Ah is appreciably smaller at the same weight, but costs almost 30% more, based on $/Ah.
I think the 3.5Ah PS could be one of their most popular batteries if it was significantly less expensive.
Ryan
I have the smaller powerstack and it didn’t live up to hype. Fully charged, it may get a little boost of energy for the first hit of a compact impact then falls tremendously to unusable. With its smaller size, it lacks run time and doesn’t seem to be better than the compact 2ah. Makes not so eager to try the other sizes for the cost, I would rather get a new tool with that money.
I have a few of the regular 5ah batteries and have been great. I really don’t need anything bigger for what i do. They are old and keep going, so for the price I am inclined to buy more of those if they fail.
Josh
I’m more interested in batteries that last have a longer overall lifespan.
I have Festool batteries in the C15 line and 18v that are more than a decade old.
I can’t buy a 5+ ah Milwaukee that last longer than a year and it’s been this way since at least 2018-2019. Two 9.0 two 8.0 one 5.0 and one of the smaller AH either 1.5 or 2
Seth Goodson
9’s were hugely problematic and Milwaukee knew that and I think recalled them. The 8.0’s were their replacements and they for me have had some issues as well. Had have had great success with the 6 HO and the 6 Forge, and for the most part the 12’s haven’t been too bad either. I have all my original 5.0’s from 2017 and they are working great. It does 100% sucks to have issues however overall they are not bad. I think a lot depends on application and battery care.
Josh
I’m glad to hear I’m not alone in the issues. Your experience is right inline with mine. I had a few m18 tools and m18 lawn care. I had to replace two 8.0 this spring and went to HD and ended up just replacing all my Milwaukee yard tools with ryobi on the 40v platform for less than the 2 batteries!
Still love my M12 stuff though
Seth Goodson
I guess I don’t understand this. I mean I know that pouch isn’t the end all be all. However for tools that don’t need the huge batteries they are great. I love my M18 Forge batteries. Tons of power just barely any weight increase.
Ryan Guldbrandsen
21700 batteries are still evolving. New more powerful batteries are coming out every year.
Molicel has been putting out some seriously powerful 21700 batteries. Their new 50B is a powerhouse. 5000mah @ 60 amps.
will
Pouchless probably cost quite a bit more to make than tabless batteries. The tabless can last longer but take longer to charge,so depends on your needs one is better thsn the other. Personally I’d go pouchless at 4ah and down and tabless anything larger. That way the pouch batteries can be used for a light or a compact driver. The tabless can be used for saws, vacs,blowers etc. So they both have their uses
will
Im intrigued by the carbon silicon batteries that these Chinese companies have been using in their smartphones. They are denser and actually run cooler, the materials aren’t as toxic as lithium or as dangerous. Not sure how the material would work in a high energy tool like a saw or vacs and blowers.
SamR
Pouch-style cells deliver so much power, but it’s hard to manage.
Even tech companies, such as Samsung, have a hard time getting them right, meaning tool companies will most likely have a much harder time doing so too.