Are you more in favor of USA-made tools, or against imported tools? If the latter, we urge you to shift to a positive standpoint, and hope to convince you with the following discussion.
During my time as a student at Stuyvesant High School in NYC, I noticed a very strange trend. NY Yankees baseball fans were more inclined to be pro-Yankees, while NY Mets fans seemed more inclined to be anti-Yankees.
In my groups of friends, it always seemed to come down to the same thing. Mets fans seemed to be as much anti-Yankees as they were pro-Mets. It wasn’t enough for them to celebrate the Mets, they had to bash the Yankees at every turn.
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Some of the time, certain Mets fans seemed to be more anti-Yankees than they were pro-Mets.
So it seems that some NY Mets fans liked the Mets, but others were simply Mets fans because they hated the Yankees.
As for me, I liked the Yankees, and was relatively neutral about the Mets except during the Subway Series and the 2000 World Series which pitted the two against each other. When the Yankees were on a break, I watched and rooted for the Mets. It was okay to like one team AND the other.
I have noticed a similar trend in regard to USA vs. import tools and brands.
Don’t get me wrong, I very much prefer USA-made tools and supplies whenever possible. If a decent imported tool is priced at $40 and a comparable if not better USA-made tool is priced at $50, I would likely buy the USA-made tool.
For me, it’s not just about USA vs. import, but brand reputation, tool designs, engineering, and quality.
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What I have found is that some people LOVE to bash import brands and tools. A lot of the time it’s justified, but some of the time I will notice there are readers who will bash import brands just for the sake of it.
Oh, it must be crap, because it’s not made here.
Oh, that brand sucks, they’re based in China.
That tool is made in Asia, it must be garbage, buy USA instead.
Some of the time, it’s understandable and even true. Other times, the bashing just seems like empty rhetoric. Arguments like these don’t help anyone.
I like to think of myself as a made-in-USA proponent. But it just frustrates me sometimes when people comment here or in online forums and trash import products undeservingly. In some cases, there are imported tools that are better than USA-made versions. But that doesn’t matter to those who feel the need to attack the idea of imported tools whenever possible.
If you want to think of me as hypocritical, for preferring USA-made tools when possible while also liking certain import tools and brands, that’s fine by me. The two don’t have to be mutually exclusive, just like it’s possible to like the Yankees without hating the Mets.
Back in high school, I could never understand why a lot of my Mets-fans friends spent so much energy talking about how much they thought the Yankees sucked.
It’s not the vitriol that I mind seeing, but the empty criticism I sometimes come across. Where someone hurls negativity about Gearwrench products despite never actually using them. When someone claims Channellock adjustable pliers are better than Knipex (which is actually an apples vs. oranges comparison). When someone exclaims that only drones buy imported tools over USA-made ones.
Over at the Garage Journal forum there is an anecdote about how someone who lost a job at a local manufacturing plant went into a hardware store to buy a shovel. After a 15 minute rant about how public spending for imported goods cost the worker his job, the worker turned down the suggested USA-made shovels and instead opted to buy a Chinese-made shovel.
There are many readers who leave very many intelligent and interesting comments about USA-made and imported tools. I don’t want you to think this discussion is about you.
My frustration is over those occasional comments where it seems someone is spending more time and energy being negative rather than positive.
Calling a new imported tool garbage without ever using it, just because it’s not made in the USA, is not constructive.
Trashing an imported tool because its manufacturer has no history or experience designing and engineering tools, and because the imported tool is replacing very reputable USA-made tools on store shelves – that’s an understandable and defensible position.
Additionally, many tool manufacturers and retailers follow ToolGuyd on a regular basis. They read all of your comments just as I do. They also keep a close eye on enthusiast forums as well.
When brands shift production overseas, the marketing executives don’t sit around discussing anti-USA production positions, or at least I hope they don’t. They discuss pro-import production.
Similarly, USA-made tool advocates, myself included, can construct more convincing arguments when more energy is focused on pro-USA points, rather than anti-import ones. That’s not to say anti-import points cannot or should not be worked in, but arguments against imported tools and foreign brands should not be the focus.
Focusing more against imported tools and brands, rather than in favor of USA ones, can also lead to a closed mind. Many of the most vocal anti-import critics tend to lose sight of what they’re arguing for. Eventually, some will vehemently oppose brands they have never bought, and tools they have never tried, and this overall weakens their arguments and efforts.
Yes, I am aware that I sometimes invite anti-import criticisms, such as with my post asking if anyone has used Southwire’s new imported tools at Lowes. What surprises me is whenever someone leaves a very harsh comment denigrating a product based solely on where it’s made, or a tool brand based solely on where they’re based, with no experience, facts, or presumptions in support of their stance.
For those of you who comment heavily in favor of USA-made tools and against imported tools and brands, I urge you to take a moment to consider if you support USA-made tools and brands as much as you oppose imported tools and foreign brands. If not, then there are a couple of things you could do:
- Write a letter applauding your favorite USA brands
- Discuss why you’re happy your favorite USA brand chooses to continue producing tools in the USA
- Buy USA-made tools when justified and when your budget allows
You can post these things on your Facebook page, in an enthusiast forum, or in a comment here. You could also send it to your favorite USA brands, to retailers, or to us.
My main point is this – try not to be one of those people who trashes import brands and tools at every turn, just because opportunities present themselves. Doing so does NOT help your cause. Instead, try to be positive with your arguments. Find opportunities to focus more on why USA-made tools are good and why you prefer USA-made tools, and there is a greater chance brands, manufacturers, retailers, and fellow tool buyers will take your comments to heart.
Richard
When someone spouts nationalistic garbage about how the USA is always the best, no matter what, and something from somewhere else is crap… without having any actual factual evidence to support their position?
I am reminded of this “Internet-famous” person:
http://lwtc247.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/get-a-brain-morans.jpg
When you speak like an uneducated buffoon, don’t be surprised when you are treated like one.
Yes, 20 years ago, “Made in China” was a pseudonym for cheap junk. Certainly, in my past experience as a buyer for a major auto parts retailer (I was responsible for line and purchasing decisions for over $50M of annual sales), I’ve seen a continued and consistent effort towards improvements in design, engineering and manufacturing quality.
Of course, there is still *plenty* of crap that is shovelled out of the Far East by the boatload, but it’s not always the case anymore.
We can’t forget why this happened, though, and the answer (in my eyes, anyway) is two-fold: corporations looking to increase margins by offshoring, and customers demanding Walmart-tier pricing on everything they buy, not just on tools.
If you espouse the opinion that USA is #1 and overseas is crap, then practise what you preach. That will undoubtedly mean that you spend more and “get less” (in quantity).
But let’s be honest: look around your home. Don’t you have enough “stuff” already? I know I’m guilty of that.
But its me!
Agree completely. I certainly like to pay a little more if it keeps the dollar local, but know very well why imports are so readily available and cheaper. And the US does not make the best of everything, which is a good thing. As far as China, wasn’t the same unfair criticsm made about Japanese products 50 years ago?
Jerry
I’m reminded of the grief Mike Rowe got, and probably still is getting on his FB page, because he did an ad for Wal-Mart. To sum up, WM has pledged to try to source more US made goods, which should help Us manufacturing jobs. Rowe voiced the ad, figuring any step in that direction, would be a positive thing. It is amazing the vicious things people wrote, just because of the association with WM. I’m pro Us stuff whenever I can be, but sometimes there just isn’t a viable Us made alternative.
What does raise my rankles, is when ongoing Us manufacture of something, is outsourced, for no apparent reason. I use Vise-Grips as my example. They were made in DeWitt, Nebraska, not too far from where I live, by the same company that was formed by the guy who invented them. They were turning a profit, but when the company was sold to the Rubbermaid group, they moved production overseas. I didn’t notice any price drops, but to be fair quality seemed fairly consistent. However, some people I knew personally lost their job for reasons I can’t figure.
I’m not anti VG, per se, but now I will buy whatever brand locking pliers seems the best for the money and my uses, where. Before, I always bought VG brand.
matt
I got USA made socks this weekend at WalMart. I actually went in to the store because of the discussion about this..
I still cant stand the local WalMarts they are really filthy dirty stores in my area.. Almost seems like I need a shower after leaving the dump…
David
I also regretted when Vise Grips went Rice Grips. They actually were better quality when they were made in Dewitt. The steel was better quality for one thing. It was an American staple and suddenly it was gone for no good reason. I have a lot of Vise-Grip pliers, but they are the Petersen USA ones. I buy the real thing on Ebay when I need them.
About Walmart, their patriotic commercials make me want to puke. Is there a larger purveyor of foreign goods? They need to stop with the American pride ads until they actually follow through and practice it. The ads are currently offensive in my opinion.
Joe M
I say this often, but I’ll say it now. If you have a problem with Imported goods in the Tool industry, the people you need to be mad at is your Politicians. 20+ years ago, they wrote a tax code that valued Capital and Investment over Productivity and Income. As such, companies that had owners and shareholders that squirrelled away their money in offshore tax havens would get away with not re-investing or spending that money in the Economy. Because they could do this, it meant there was less room in the actual profits of a company that went to actual profit, and they had to find more and more reasons to spend less to make more, to please shareholders.
This led to them downsizing and sending jobs and contracts overseas. By using Cheap Labour, Cheap Materials, and increasingly CHEAP methods of producing once-North-American (I’m sorry to hurt your nationalism, but this is a problem in my country of Canada as well.) products, they have created an entire generation of manufacturing that is being made BETTER overseas. Not because the country is better or worse, but because that is where all the experienced quality control is. That is where it has been for a while now. So much so that, if they just uprooted the entire operation and brought it back to North America THIS SECOND, the quality would drop and the companies would lose money faster than they could recover. It isn’t about what country is doing the work, it’s about the specifications and experienced quality control in place.
Let’s be completely honest about the situation. Foreign countries get contracts to build things to a specific standard, as set by the parent company who makes the tools. If that company’s standards or requirements are low, the product will be low quality. It doesn’t matter if they’re located in Nebraska, Texas, New York, or Antarctica, if the design standards aren’t there for a quality tool, no one in the world will make that tool with any amount of quality. Likewise, if the contracted foreign country’s factories cannot or will not produce that tool or those components to the high standard the company expects, they will LOSE THEIR CONTRACT. So, it’s not about the country making it, it’s about the design, and the profits that a parent company is willing to use on getting that tool to the market.
The problem between the Politicians, The Tax Code, and the Manufacturing is quite simple, and quite painful to hear. Profits and Corporate Taxes are so out of balance with actual North American standards of Manufacturing that it has become impossible for any company to afford to move their manufacturing from overseas to North America and still be competitive with their foreign competition. It is financial suicide for a company like DeWalt or the parent company of Vise-Grips to just up and move their manufacturing to the USA or Canada right now, because there are companies like Milwaukee and Makita who are using cheaper labour overseas, and making their profits off the US tax code being so forgiving of their owners squirrelling away their money instead of leaving it in a taxable, profitable liquid form. These companies are making high profit by being forgiven their cheap labour processes, because the tax system doesn’t punish them for doing this. If you want this fixed, it’s your politicians you should be angry at. None of the tool companies can do any different until you punish your politicians for the situation they caused, and how much it hurt North American manufacturing.
firefly
Agreed!
David
There are still plenty of excellent quality USA made tools, so I don’t buy your comment that quality would drop if production was brought back stateside.
harry
Tools should be judged on how they perform and not where they come from. In the tool snob’s world it’s ok to use screwdrivers from Switzerland and pliers from Germany but, it’s a heinous act to use a Gearwrench tool from Taiwan.
I have mostly US made tools in my arsenal against automotive engineers but, as the years go on, Taiwanese ratcheting wrenches, impact sockets, and high tooth count ratchets have gained a foot hold. As always, it’s best to buy what you like, what you can afford, and what will serve you well.
chad w
This is exactly right. When people say “imports” they ACTUALLY mean “china/taiwan”. These same clueless buffoons are the same ones that brag about “helping the economy” and “keeping jobs here”… buy buying flea market and pawn shop tools. The same people beating chest about how they will “pay double” for usa, turn around and brag about screwing a widow outta her husbands snap on collection. Its an odd world us tool collectors inhabit. I say often, and stand by- “buy the (best) tool, dont buy the country.
Allen
I will pay considerably more for USA made goods, of any kind. I will buy Chinese goods only as a last resort, and even then look for an alternative such as used etc. sometimes I go without.
My most recent experience was dowels, I have some patio furniture to build and will need lots of good quality dowels. Everything locally is from China so I went to the internet. Lo and behold I find US companies making high quality dowels for about twice the price, order was placed that day. I learned that there are two types of dowels, craft grade and furniture grade. The local cheap ones are craft grade, they will not reinforce a furniture joint.
I believe the tide is turning away from China, I just hope it isn’t too late. I protest solely on economic grounds, our trade imbalance with China is not sustainable. They will buy us with those dollars we are sending them.
I tell folks I am ABC, Anywhere But China.
chad w
Im sure your 3 dollar dowels have saved us from the yellow scourge.
SteveR
I do what I suppose many others practice. I have limited income, so I try to buy the best tool or other product (electronics, food, clothing, etc.) that I can within my budget. I prefer American-made products whenever possible. They just seem to have a better look, feel and heft to them. Today, however, we have products made from globally-sourced bits and pieces, although the design and engineering is often done here. Rolls-Royce has practiced that philosophy for many years; it buys the best electronics, tires, etc., no matter what their COO. As long as the quality of engineering, raw materials and actual assembly of the product or tool meets or exceeds design standards, who actually makes it shouldn’t be an issue.
As Americans, we like to think we can out-build, out-fight and out-produce any other country on Earth. That may have been the case, but I don’t think that is true any longer. The Germans make excellent hand tools, and have always been lauded for their engineering. The helmets our soldiers (and police SWAT teams) wear is a highly modified design of the helmet worn by German soldiers in WWII. There are a number of German toolmakers (such as Knipex, Wiha and Wera) whose products many of us have purchased over the years. Mercedes, Audi and BMW sell cars by the boatload here, but no one is complaining about that. The Italian Army was a joke during WWII, but today Italy runs many of the great design houses for clothes and leather goods. And who among us hasn’t lusted after a Ferrari or Lamborghini automobile at some point in their lives? Many countries, large and small, have surpassed the United States in education and training of their people to meet new challenges in the global economy. The U.S. has fallen drastically behind in doing that, and that’s one of the reasons manufacturing goes overseas. Obviously, many import products available are substandard and built to a lower price-point, but that is changing. Look at the electronics industry (TVs, computers, cell phones, etc.); we haven’t been competitive in that arena for years.
What is scary is that we don’t seem to produce much, anymore, nor are we the innovators. We can’t really blame the manufacturers for producing outside the U.S.; to them, it just makes good sense.
joe
This is interesting, what is the USA even making in general. Regarding electronics and such.
I know samsung is king in LCD screens.
Import brands in brushless and brushed motors.
Import brands in automobile engines.
What is the USA good for in the innovation category?
Just USA steel?
Not hating, just wondering.
JG
I just want quality things that last long, even if it has to be manufactured by enslaved baby pandas in North Korea.
Mike47
But what will you do when the baby pandas throw off the bonds of slavery, become unionized, and demand higher wages, bigger pensions and free healthcare?
JG
I’ll pay more for the quality and durability then if I have to. I’m not rich enough to buy cheap tools that need to be replaced every two years.
Hang Fire
On the one hand, it doesn’t matter what I think, the march towards offshoring (hello Black & Decker) will continue, as well as hollowing-out (Chinese firms buying out American manufacturers like TTi did with Milwaukee, after all they have to do something with all those American dollars).
On the other hand we’ve seen sudden drops in quality happen so often when American brands shut down US plants and offshort- and they continue to happen- that anyone has a right to be VERY skeptical of foreign goods, particularly Chinese and Indian.
Of course they’re getting better. No other direction to go (haha).
But really the question is academic. We can bad-mouth all we want, and some of it may be illogical, but except for some specialty hold-outs, there really is little to no US toolmaking left.
David
No USA toolmaking left??!
I guess somebody better tell that to Channellock, Proto, Klein, Armstrong, Estwing, Vaughn, Eklind, Bondhus, Marshalltown, Wright, S&K, Sands, Rose trowel, Midwest, Wilde, Dasco Pro, Mayhew, Excel, Chappell, Lie-Nielsen and all the others.
Stan
I hate to say this, but out of all those companies you listed only Eklind, Bondhus, SK, Wilde, Wright, Sands and Dasco Pro only produce 100% all American made items.
Those Channellock branded screwdrivers, wrenches, can opener, levels are all imported. For a while the grips on the Code Blue items weren’t American made either. I own a USA made Channellock adjustable wrench, but this several decades old though.
As for Proto, thanks to the “good” guys at Black and Decker Stanley, some of their products aren’t American made as well. In 1984 when Stanley Works bought Proto, essentially this would eventually mean more and more products would be sent overseas.
With Klein, whilst a good majority of their “hardline” products are still USA made, there is a fair amount of products that aren’t American made and haven’t been in years/decades. I’ll give Klein credit, they don’t deny this and openly admit this as well. That takes real guts in my opinion.
Now especially since Bain Capital has since bought the Apex Group, not all Armstrong tools are made in USA anymore, but especially their locking pliers and some other items. I wouldn’t be shocked to hear in the next few years if Bain Capital ruins this brand as Black and Decker among other companies have done to other brands.
While Estwing still produces some American made items, some of their hammers, pry bars and some of the Estwing merchandise they sell are no longer USA made.
Technically speaking, most Vaughan products are USA made, but their saws are made in Japan. However, given they are Japanese saws, I give them a pass on this one.
Whilst Bondhus products are USA made, their Felo products aren’t. I believe most of those items are made in Germany, but maybe not anymore.
Only certain Marshaltown products are still USA made.
I heard that certain, Rose Trowel, Mayhew, Excel Chapell and Lie-Nielsen items are USA made as well.
But not all Midwest items are American made anymore. They used to be not that long ago, but that hasn’t been the case in a long time.
Stuart
Just because those brands don’t produce ALL of their products in the USA doesn’t mean they’re not American toolmakers.
A steakhouse that also has chicken and salad on their menu is still a steakhouse.
Bondhus does not own Felo. The two brands are marketing partners.
Stan
Stuart, I never implied that they WEREN’T American manufacturers, but I wanted to stress, that the mentioned manufacturers didn’t produce all their items in America.
Does that make them bad companies? NO and I repeat NO. Personally and this just my opinion, I rather have a company produce some American products than no American products. Ideally and literally just ideally I wish there more companies such as Wilde and Wright that only made American made items.
But given more and more manufacturers are shipping jobs overseas, anything is better than nothing at all. Just look at files, locking pliers and power tools.
I haven’t seen a modern day American variation of those in years, if not longer.
As for Bondhus, a couple of years ago, I called them and the person I spoke to told me Felo bought Bondhus outright. This person apparently was a manager, so I believed them. So their words, not exactly mine.
Now if I came off strong or if my post offended anyone, that WASN’T my intention and to be blunt almost never is. I remember reading about a certain brand once and I was told all their items were American made, only to later find out that wasn’t true at all. That was quite disappointing to say the least.
David
Exactly, Stuart. Stan, I never meant to give the impression that all of those companies I listed make 100% of their products in the USA, because as you correctly pointed out, that isn’t the case. I always check the label or check with the manufacturer on a tool before I order it if I’m not sure. Estwing and Vaughan do make most of their hammers in the USA. Estwing’s “Sure Strike” line, as well as their “Handy Bar” is no longer USA made, but they still have a very nice USA hammer line. Channellock does still make all their pliers here with American made steel. Pliers are their staple anyway. I always check before buying Klein; more of their stuff seems to be going overseas all the time, but most screwdrivers, nut drivers, pliers, hacksaws, etc seem to still be domestic for now. Most Proto is made here still, but what is nice about their website (and Channellock’s) is that they have an American flag on all the products that are USA made. That’s extremely helpful. Marshalltown has two lines: Their Premier Line is USA made, while their QLT line is China made. I gladly shell out a little more for the Premier Line. Midwest’s snips (their main thing) are USA made. Not all of their stuff is, but send them an email if you have a question regarding COO on a specific tool. They answered me quickly and honestly. I do share your fears about Armstrong. We will have to wait and see how that goes. Bottom line – If buying USA made tools is as big a deal for you as it is for me, just check tools out and find out where they are made before buying.
David
UPDATE – Marshalltown Premier Line has now changed to “Made in USA with global materials.” Also, I recently ordered a Klein hacksaw online and when it came, I was shocked and dismayed that it was made in China. I do not know if some models of their hacksaws are still USA made or not.
Happy Mondays
You guys that think you can equate early post-war Japanese manufacturing with what is happening in China now need to get a firm grip on reality. Put the remote down and step away from KotchTV.
Japanese families sent their men and women to the factories and their children to school. In China, the men go without jobs and the children go to the factories. There is no equating these two very different historical FACTS.
Even if the fact that children are worked to death in factories in China was NOT true, I wouldn’t buy products that materially benefit a regime that will put a bullet in the back of the head of men and women who protest the corrupt status-quo of a single party Commnist state.
If that doesn’t make you sick, and doesn’t make you want to vote with your wallet, well.. may heaven help you.
Steve
I am confused?? You say that using china products makes you sick, But how are you able to say that using a computer that is made in china?
Phil
I don’t automatically hold anything and everything made in the US is superior to the equivalent imported product, or vice versa. While I do try to buy US-made goods, it’s only a part of my buying process. I look for quality first when it comes to tools, for example, and use that to compute the value of the item. I’ll pay more for a high quality tool I know will last for a very long time and allow me to do first-rate work. The Snap-On truck guy gets limited business from me because I can find tools a great deal cheaper from US and import companies that will fit the bill on par with the truck items. A few things, like ratchets and some similar items get bought from my buddy on the truck. I won’t be like a friend of mine that flat-out refused to buy anything other than Snap-On, amassing a $30k+ hole of debt on the truck and had to give up a lot of it when the tides turned for him. In one day I might grab something from the truck and later head to the Harbor Freight store for something else.
Chinese manufactured goods are not automatically the worst in quality. Take the latest products from Milwaukee. With some exceptions, I can honestly say they are one of the best companies for innovation, quality and design of their tools. I have lots of tools from almost every major manufacturer, and the actual differences overall aren’t that great when averaged out. If you just stick with the major players, just pick your favorite color. I bought DeWalt tools early on, and at the time they were almost all US made. When the tools were eventually all outsourced, there was no relative lowering in price or addition of value. The big change was in corporate profits. I think it’s coming to a head now that the once enviable manufacturing base in the US has been completely decimated, and the various companies are finding out they can’t sell their goods to unemployed people. DeWalt espousing “Built in the USA” these days is nothing new, it used to be SOP.
I know we are all talking mostly about the origin of our tools here, but I want you to take this “Buy USA” mindset to the grocery store. Go through the canned food aisle or some of the other nonperishables section and look at the labels. A good amount of canned fruits are coming from China today, and it’s not just Mandarin oranges. These are not exotic foods, they are everyday popular items from brands like Dole and DelMonte. This sort of food production and transportation isn’t cost effective in the long run.
Walmart’s big push into US manufacturing might be commendable, but it comes with a price (or a cost, as it were). The US manufacturing base is so depressed and people are so eager for work, you’ll be lucky if these newly created opportunities are anything more than minimum wage jobs in near sweatshop conditions. Because in order to sell at Walmart, you have to compete with China, Inc. on price. Think there’ll be cushy, well-paying union jobs in that scenario?
firefly
In general I like to support USA made when it come with in reason that the product is clearly better than it foreign counterpart. Generally I tend to shy away from Made in China product as well, not just because of quality but the political climate, labor protection laws among other things…
With that in mind I find myself tend to favor German/Japan made product lately when it come to tool. I think (and I really hope this will continue to be case) that German/Japan companies are more engineer driven than the US.
Anyway the race to the bottom that is created by both corporation and consumer are hurting everyone in the long run. It’s harder and harder for good company to make profit; or at least enough profit to sustain in the short term; Crappy companies will get better overtime or die off while consumer will hopefully get their wake up call soon enough to support reputable company that struggle to turn a profit to survive.
DaveZ
Preach it Stuey!
You make some excellent points. I really like the example of the Yankee fans vs. Mets fans. That’s a very interesting observation that can apply to many areas of life (and make it much better). I guess I’ll have to stop hating the Yankees now.
Since you mentioned it, I try to buy only tools that are sourced in Antarctica since it is the most neutral of all the continents…
Garrick
I like the sense of community I get from buying local, but usually my first priority is to get the best tool for the application, without doing too much research. That in itself often leads me to buy something that is readily available, which tends to mean locally. My jointer and drill press were made in my home country (Beaver Tools… guess where I live). My portable table saw and mitre saw were made by a neighbour (Dewalt). Most of my power tools (almost all cordless now) were made by two losers of the second world war (Makita and Bosch).
I have a router made in Australia, which upon repairing due to both my abuse of, and a design flaw in, gave my a great insight into how they think down under.
Some countries have standards for their exports, which I appreciate because it saves me time when trying to weed out potential duds. Some of the very best tools come from Germany, and I don’t recall ever seeing garbage from them. Japan is also fairly good. America has a consistent somewhat rugged quality I like. Canada varies from great to mediocre. Cadex being great, Craftex being mediocre. China apparently makes whatever is requested by the rest of the world, or rather companies from around the world. There, we have to trust the companies to control the quality. However, now that China is getting richer, and wages are going up, the low cost labour is more from Vietnam, Malaysia and other still poor Asian countries. I don’t mind supporting those countries either.
JCC
In my opinion, there are very few people who demand that their tools be “Made in USA” to the exclusion of every other country. I have a lot of trouble believing that even the most ardent patriot in the U.S. would pass on a tool made in Canada or Britain, or even Germany. What I think you’re really seeing is a strong desire not to buy Chinese (and I mean Mainland China, not Taiwan). The problem is, this attitude asserts itself as demanding “Made in USA”, because in most cases the product is suddenly outsourced from the U.S. to China. There’s no stopover in some other country first (e.g. Mexico or Taiwan).
I don’t have a problem purchasing a product made anywhere in the world, other than China, if it’s the best tool for the job. If the Chinese make the best tool, I will probably try to find the non-Chinese alternative, especially if that tool was recently made in the United States (like vice-grips).
There are several reasons for this:
1) There’s no way to buy a Chinese-made product and not be giving money to the Chinese government. That money goes towards buying up U.S. assets in the United States, and funding the Chinese military. You are literally purchasing the bullets that may someday kill your children on a battlefield, or in their own homes. Sorry to be dramatic, but the truth is sometimes uncomfortable.
2) Slave labor – I don’t mean “non-Union” labor, here. I mean children working in factories 12-14 hours per day. There are even stories about prisoners in Chinese Gulags who are forced to make products which are sold here in the U.S. at Wal-Mart and other stores.
3) Environmental Issues – One reason U.S. companies go overseas is to avoid American environmental laws. Some of which are onerous and silly. Others prevent the type of epic air and water pollution we see in pictures of Shanghai and Beijing.
4) Corporate Greed – I understand the desire to make money, and to get out from under U.S. union regulations, employment laws, and environmental regulations. Fine. Then what about Mexico? What about Malaysia? The fact of the matter is, these companies aren’t content to pay their workers half of a U.S. minimum wage (or even 1/3). They want to go someplace where they can pay a daily wage in pennies or less.
This last one bothers me a lot. Because if they’re willing to slash those costs, what else are they cutting back on? Is that Milwaukee drill really as good as its marketing? How long will it last? What parts are designed to wear out first? And if you see a similar Chicago Electric drill at Harbor Freight that looks similar and has the same technology, can you really be sure that it’s not the SAME drill with a different logo on it?
My cordless brand of choice is Bosch, but recently I became very interested in where DeWalt makes its tools. Most of them say “Made in Mexico” on them, but their big factory is in Reynosa, Mexico. If you look this place up on Google Maps, it’s about 1-2 miles from the U.S. border. Theoretically, the workers at this place may very well live in the U.S. and simply work in Mexico.
Chris
Here is my rant….
One thing I didn’t see in any comments or any of the comments in the past on this topic is, where is the out rage at Lowes or THD, or other retailers? You think THD is taking a hit on their lower prices they keep preaching about in their commercials, about ‘Saving more, doing more”? You think Lowe has the “LowesT” prices because they are taking a hit, on the things we the consumer want to/need to buy?
From working in the industry that sells to the big guys, they come to their suppliers and say “we need a price drop, or we need increased margins, or we need bigger year end rebates.” What is a company supposed to do? Hold out and say, “No we demand a premy?” Good luck, your butts are out the door, or your shelf space will be given to a competitor. Especially when all the big guys have their own house brands, in every category. You don’t play ball, they take the ball and go home.
So yes complain companies are going over sees, and you’re not seeing a price drop on the shelf. I get it, trust me I do. I love my US made tools I have collected over the years. I also get that CEOs shouldn’t be making 18 million a year plus bonus, but that is the capitalistic way. No one gets out of high school and says “I want to be poor”
Rant over.
JCC
Very good point.
It’s the “Wal-Mart Way”. A good example was Lowe’s liquidating their extensive Channellock and Knipex stock in favor of the cheaper, Chinese-made “Southwire” brand.
Richard R.
I am not sure Lowes has liquidated thier inventory of Channellock stock , I was just there yesterday and therre was a pretty good selection on the shelves.
David
They do still carry a limited Channellock selection in the regular hand tools area. I think JCC was just (correctly) referring to Lowes liquidating all their Channellock electrical tools in favor of Southwire.
bar
If you think that “China” is keeping prices down think again. “China” is doing all they can to keep the prices UP. But as you say, the buyer of these huge volumes say “cut the price or we go elsewhere with our 1000000pcs/y”. The factory accepting the lower price don’t plan on loosing money though, so they cut quality. Quality costs money in China too you know. So when you see a “made in china” tool at “an equal cost” like was discussed in some recent article, it just may be that the quality may actually be good. If it’s not, then it’s greed.
Joe
So, I am definitely in the camp of Pro USA (and ABC) but I will but what is practical, and high quality for the budget I have. If the COO is China, then so be it, but I will pay more for US made goods if I have the option/budget.
I found Mike Rowe voicing the WalMart commercial interesting, and pointed it out to my wife when we were watching the Superb Owl, and I think its good WalMart is trying to bring jobs back to the US. But what remains to be seen is the true results of this.
As for the Tax thing, yeah, our tax code sucks.
About your great Mets-Yankees comparison. I live in Boston, where being a Red Sox fan (or even New England sports fan) appears to require that you hate the Yankees (I am apathetic, I don’t watch much baseball). My favorite example of such is when the Patriots (you know… the football team) won the superbowl and at the rally at city hall one player started a Yankees suck chant (which the crowd picked up). Yeah, my brain exploded. They seem to have mellowed after wining the World Series now (I think…)
Richard R.
I am no longer even sure if my American Branded tool is made in the USA . Has anyone took a good long look at how many American tools are now made in China or elsewhere. I know there is a list out there on the internet some place that shows where each American Co. has it’s manufacturing plants and just what products are made in each , but I can’t seem to find it anymore. If someone knows where to find the list I would like to know as well.
David
I will be the “closed-minded” person on here that buys only USA made hand tools. Whether that’s in a store, online or on ebay, I stick to it. I wasn’t always so insistent on USA made, but I got fed up with the outsourcing and made a commitment. I don’t judge others for buying foreign tools; this is simply what I choose. I also try to buy USA as much as possible with other goods, but it isn’t always possible. My reasons for doing this include: patriotism, boycotting virtual slave labor in China and rewarding American companies and their workers that choose to take the high road and keep jobs and quality products here.
joe
This is interesting, what is the USA even making in general.
I know samsung is king in LCD screens.
Import brands in brushless and brushed motors.
Import brands in automobile engines.
What is the USA good for in the innovation category?
Greg Post
A product being made in the USA means nothing to me if it’s not high quality or a good value. I think too many American products are overrated because they aren’t as well made as some products you get from Europe or Japan, and they’re often too expensive for the quality you do get. We live in a global economy and when you factor in design, raw materials, and supply chain not much is made in any one country anymore.
Toolfreak
The pro-USA/Anti-China thing distorts what people are ACTUALLY angry about.
It’s NOT that there are tools imported from China – this has been the case for a very, very, very, VERY long time.
People are ANGRY and “pro-USA” even more now than before because so many companies have CHANGED their formerly USA-made tools to be made in China – and they still charge the same price!
Great example is Craftsman. China-made wrenches, ratchets, sockets, etc. Same price as when they were made in the USA.
It’s not just pro-USA/anti-import. It’s about being mad as hell companies outsourced the production and really seem to think consumers are so stupid that they wouldn’t notice.
David
You nailed it. Where are the savings we were supposed to see when they moved production to China to “remain competitive”. Remain competitive = reap huge profits whilst using virtual slave labor to produce inferior products.
Lynyrd
Made in USA of Global Components
For those of us who try to buy American, what do you make of Stanley Black & Decker’s latest tools which have a Big “Made in USA of Global Materials” sticker on the boxes and cards? There are Dewalt 20v cordless drills and Stanley Fat Max hand saws, and so on.
I am happy that American Labor is used, but at the same time, it appears their motivation is as much about marketing. I don’t even recall when/if cordless tools were ever made in the USA. I suppose I have to put S-B&D/Dewalt above the others for this attempt. Dewalt; American Company with American Assembly with Global Materials beats Milwaukee* which is owned by TTI a Chinese company with nearly everything made in China. Even Makita is better than Milwaukee; Japanese owned with some tools made in the USA. (Personally I like Bosch; German/USA Owned, made in Europe, Malaysia, Mexico, some China and some USA). (*That Brookfield Wis address on the label is B.S. It is simply TTI’s U.S. address whereas Bosch’s Mt Prospect IL address is owned by the U.S. Bosch).
I am very anti-China. “JCC’s” post articulated the reasons very well. 1. Government Ownership*, 2. Unfair Business Practices resulting in “Slave” labor and unfair competition, and 3. Environmental concerns. All reasons which provide for an unequal playing field for American labor. I understand not all in life is fair, but, what China has done and what American Corporations have done is ridiculous.
(*Canada and most European companies subsidize manufacturing however few have part ownership)
In regards to “Corporate Greed” the issue is with our own laws. Keep in mind for a publicly traded company; it is unlawful for a CEO not to do what is in the best interests of the Shareholder. The ONLY interest is profit. Unfortunately until our corporate laws are changed or more companies become “B” Corporations (Lawfully can balance People/Planet/Profit), this will continue until the China option becomes unprofitable.
In regards to quality, I find ISO non-existent in China. There is ISO certification in Taiwan, Mexico and of course Europe. There are some great designs coming out of China, designs created by U.S. based companies. In the case of tools such as Craftsman, the Chinese made stuff is garbage. They even have the audacity to advertise the “wider” jaw width on wrenches to provide more strength, when in fact it is wider because a less quality alloy is used.
When U.S. companies move production overseas, especially to China, they should be prepared for negative comments. I must respectfully disagree with our Host on this point. China bashing isn’t necessarily about the lack of quality of the tool, it’s about principle.
If not made in the USA, I next prefer Europe/Canada (Fair and Competitive labor practices), then Japan and Taiwan, then Mexico, then other Asian/South American Countries. There are enough choices out there to at least try and not buy Chinese made goods. I suppose one could say I have too much time on my hands to put this much thought into this, but well, it matters to me.
Thanks,
Lynyrd
chad w
Just for that long winded bunch of bullshit. Im buying more chinese tools, and a black market chinababy.