We’re at Milwaukee’s new tool media event today, asking questions, demoing the new tools, and taking photos.
But I just couldn’t wait to break the news to you. Here is what Milwaukee’s “New Breakthrough” announcement is all about:
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Fully compatible super-powered batteries and M18 tools, including cordless table saw.
https://www.instagram.com/toolguyd/
We’ll try to bring you ongoing coverage throughout the day, here:
Ben is also here.
Andrew is also covering NPS18 with us.
Searching for #NPS18 on your favorite social media platform should show you everyone’s ongoing coverage.
Hilton
Thanks for the updates. Good effort from you.
Luke
The table saw looks really similar to Dewalt. Same style fence and adjustment system. Which is great. I’ve used the corded Dewalt table saw for 5 years now, but with my 6 M18 batteries I’d be interested in moving to this.
Luke
**I realize my current M18 batteries probably won’t power this, I just meant I’m already invested in the Milwaukee system
Chris
Only one way to find out ;D
Mike
The saw is designed to run off 12 amp battery
Corey
So their new tool can only run off a new battery… But it’s okay because that battery will work in all the old tools…? Trying to sneak that change of tune in real quiet huh? Hahahaha
OLDominionDIYer
Actually that is completely false the new tools work best with the new batteries but they are all backwards compatible unlike Dewalt and no X2 craziness like Makita thank goodness. Way to go Red making it better and keeping it simple and completely compatible!
D
Sounds like Flexvolt other than the battery allows a physical connection. Milwaukee are sneaky. In the end they’re both achieving pretty much the same thing; huge batteries you have to buy to use new tools that won’t really ever be used on the smaller low draw tools (even if they can be).
I wonder if the new tools will damage the smaller batteries. Fully compatible means they shouldn’t, and it also means they should perform exactly the same. If they did, then the new batteries wouldn’t be needed!
Yes Milwaukee are physically forward compatible but likely not electrically forward compatible (in a performance and lifespan/longevity sense). Flexvolt is not forwards compatible. Both are fully backwards compatible. Sounds pretty much like the same thing to me.
OLDominionDIYer
Not at all the same to me. I can plug my 5.0 & 9.0Ah into anyone of these new tools and they will work and I can plug the new HO 6 and 12Ah batteries into anyone of my tools and they will also work. You simply cannot do that with a flexvolt period. It means it severely limits use as compared to Milwaukee’s
Blair
My first thought was DeWalt look alike.
Chris
Yes please! I don’t use the m18 line, but that looks sooooooo good.
Chris
Any new m12 products aside from the cutoff tool?
Rob
A riveting tool. Got an e-mail about it 2 days ago. 2550-20
Tim
There’s an M12 rocket stand light, and new M12 impact wrenches in 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2.
Brian
Let’s not gloss over those impact wrenches, the 3/8 and 1/2 are rated at 250 ft/lbs of torque! The M18 Fuel compact impact wrenches are rated at 210 and 220 ft/lbs! These M12s are smaller than the compact M18s AND more powerful!
Eric
They’re what I’m most excited to learn more about. That’s a lot of power in a tiny tool.
Travis
I want to know if those are new versions of each tool, or just showing the 12ah works on everything.
Chris
Some of the tools are new. Like the gen 3 drill, impact driver, impact wrench, supersawzall, table saw, etc.
Adam
More specifically M18 1” impact wrench. They are also coming out with Gen2 M12 impact wrenches in September.
Also have a backpack vacuum, chainsaw, new rover type light.
Dylan Bott
So now Makita is starting to lag behind
Corey
Have you used subcompacts, or their cordless router? While I don’t personally care for them, the x2 line still puts them at a higher voltage than milwaukee, and have been well received. Plus’re a secondary market for them lol doubt they care, but I digress- I think Makita is very much in the game, whatever it’s worth to them.
Matt
They are very much still in the game. Their additions to the subcompact. Their ope, their tracksaws and Bluetooth gear provided them their own market.
JC
Great job getting this up so quickly, so far my wallet is safe as I either dont have a need (9″ grinder is awesome but I am a DIY guy and not a fabricator or pipe fitter) or in some cases want for whats been shown so far. Good thing were early in the show. Come on baby, daddy needs a rear handle left blade saw.
Travis
Found it.
The M18™ REDLITHIUM™ HIGH OUTPUT™ HD12.0 is the best performing cold weather pack ever made, providing increased power in extreme cold weather conditions (below 0F / -18C). It provides the most work per charge of any professional power tool battery in the industry, driving full corded replacement on the jobsite. The REDLITHIUM™ HIGH OUTPUT™ HD12.0 battery is fully compatible with 150+ M18™ solutions.
RF
Sounds like I can run my heated hoodie with adapter on high for 24 hours.
Adam
And after a while, end up walking with a permanent tilt. Haha
Mike
Unfortunately dewalt already came out with 12amp battery sorry Milwaukee you’re too slow to the dance
Mike K
They all use the same stuff. Just matters who has a press event first. Probably the least surprising news of the day.
red92s
If they aren’t going to introduce a lawnmower, they are shooting themselves in the foot now that Dewalt is rolling one out this spring. For a homeowner considering cordless OPE, the mower is probably the most expensive and most-used battery tool, so it makes a lot of sense to give that single piece of equipment a lot of weight when comparing brands/platforms.
JC
Amen, brother. Id be in line on day 1 for a mower release. I have 4 9.0 packs which should more than do the trick. The chainsaw is nice, but there is no way Milwaukee can tell me the chainsaw is a more central piece of OPE than a mower. We will have to see how the rest of the show goes.
michaelhammer
What is OPE?
Travis
outdoor power equipment
Steve
Been waiting for this since the miter saw came out. I can’t wait to get one.
JustTheFastest
Milwaukee website is updated:
M18 High Output 12.0
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Batteries-and-Chargers/M18-Batteries-and-Chargers/48-11-1812
M18 High Output 6.0 XC
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Batteries-and-Chargers/M18-Batteries-and-Chargers/48-11-1862
M18 Fuel Chainsaw
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Outdoor-Power-Equipment/2727-21HD
M18 Fuel Large Grinder
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Metalworking/Grinders/2785-21HD
OM
I just started working for a company that uses all M18 Fuel tools, this has been my first personal experience with them and I have to say I have been thoroughly impressed so far. We do ironwork and the 3/4″ drive impact is definitely priceless for what we do.
Adam
Looks like they might have a 7″ grinder, if that picture is any indication of tools that need more power.
A more full powered vaccuum might be a possibility with that extra power. That would be cool to see.
That 3rd gen Impact driver is so tiny. Battery is the only part that looks big now.
Jim Felt
So I guess old slow pokie Bosch will now use their latest CORE 6.3 battery as the eventual basis for a new 12.6 version? Aah. Marketing. Slow but sure. Or at least slow.
JMG
What’s the blade size on the table saw?
Christopher Torres
8.25 inch
Adam
Why? Stupid off-standard blade sizing. I suppose with this & the Dewalt, there will be more options, but I would have rather seen a 10” saw with 2 batteries. Paying more for strange blade sizes is one of the silliest one can do in my opinion, obviously no other option in cordless. Tons more volume production of 10” blades. I never came across 8.25” until Dewalt last year.
Stuart
I talked with someone about this. 8-1/4 can serve most of what their target users need. To go up to 10″ would require tradeoffs that many users won’t want or need to make.
They can still expand with a 10″ saw down the road, maybe with their next evolutionary bump-up in tech.
adam
That makes total sense. I know we over bought when we got a 12″ miter, instead of 10.” I just look it at it from a cost of consumables aspect. I would have preferred getting the M18 Fuel 6-1/2″ saw, but looking at the usually lower or at least same cost & higher availibility of 7-1/4″ blades, it made more sense.
Obviously there will be plenty of availability, at least should at some time, with 2 cordless saws using the same size blade. I wonder though, could they just get away with making a 7-1/4″ table saw?
JustTheFastest
The new Fuel 7 1/4 Circular saw is 5,800 rpm vs 5,000 on the current. Looks like they also made changes to the dust port and will include a vac adapter.
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Woodworking/Circular-Saws/2732-21HD
Ryan
So how much can we expect the performance to change with a 5.0 battery?
The balance on that saw will be absolutely terrible with that 12.0 brick. It’s not great even with a 5.0, but at least manageable.
RF
Can the table saw run on AC as well like Dewalt’s miter saw?
Tim
Doesn’t look like it.
OhioHead
DeWalt had pretty strong patents in the early 2000’s on the 24volt AC/DC adapter, I hope they did not let them expire/update……
Eric
Milwaukee has lights that can do both. Depending on how the patents are written they might fall outside of the scope. Or maybe Dewalt licensed it to them for the lights since they aren’t really enough to drive a person from one product line to the other.
Brian
It cannot, poor choice IMO 🙁
Chris
I see their 7 1/4 circular saw with the big battery cut faster then the flexvolt in the test… Not sure how they did it, with it still being an 18 volt tool
JustTheFastest
I posted a link above but it’s still awaiting moderation. New 7 1/4 is 5,800 rpm. Up from 5,000 on current. Also changed dust port and included a vac adapter.
Eric
Because the power available is still the same. IMO the multivolt stuff is pure marketing wank. Both tools are drawing their power from the same or very similar 15 battery cells. It really doesn’t matter if your pulling 90amps at 18v or 30 amps at 60v. Both batteries are only going to give you ~1800w of power at full charge, basically equivalent to the power your going to see from the wall on a 15 amp breaker. In the end it really comes down to making the best motor you can that uses the voltage of your choice.
Tim
The last sentence is where the key is at though. Making a higher voltage lower current motor typically means less heat, smaller wire gauge, and less loss over the wire and within the motor windings, etc. That’s why higher power corded saws are 220V (or 440V) instead of 120V, aside from 40A 120V service plugs not being common, they can get better efficiency from a 220V or 440V motor.
The battery packs do wind up with the same power capacity, and probably pretty similar discharge rates, so in theory any 9Ah or 12Ah pack from whatever brand will be at least close in terms of power delivery capability, and thus the same tools should be possible. Dewalt put their expertise into designing higher voltage motors and their associated benefits, there are also reasons and benefits to staying on 18V as Milwaukee chose to do. Unless you go to a 2-battery solution like the makita x2 or dewalt 120V flexvolt tools, everybody will be in the same 1-battery-power-capability ballpark.
That isn’t to say though that all batteries in a lineup are equal, since power delivery depends on both capacity and discharge rate. These new 12Ah batteries have 1/3 more capacity than a 9Ah pack. Let’s also say (imaginary numbers here) that the “high output” 12Ah batteries can discharge at 20C safely, while the 9Ah batteries can only do 10C. Let’s look at the power delivery capability for both:
9Ah*20V=180Wh. At 10C discharge, that’s 1800 Watts available.
12Ah*20V=240Wh. At 20C discharge, that’s 4800 watts available.
Flipping that around, let’s take a “high output” 9Ah pack vs a theoretical 12Ah “old style” pack.
9Ah*20V=180Wh. At 20C discharge, that’s 3600 watts available.
12Ah*20V=240Wh. At 10C discharge, that’s 2400 watts available.
The higher discharge batteries (again, those were imaginary discharge numbers though) can beat regular batteries on power delivery, even when not at the same capacity. What is interesting here is Milwaukee is likely doing something inside the high-draw tools to limit current when used with smaller/less capable battery packs, to prevent burning them up. Dewalt doesn’t have to worry about that since the non-flexvolt batteries don’t work on the high drain (flexvolt) tools, and the flexvolt batteries don’t have any issue supplying the power needs of the other tools. My guess is there’s something special in the high output batteries (is it in the 9Ah high demand too?) to tell the tool what kind of pack is connected, so it can regulate its power output accordingly. This is easy to do with brushless motors, so also a reason I don’t think you’ll ever see brushed versions of milwaukee’s high draw tools, they wouldn’t be able to maintain compatibility with the older and smaller M18 batteries.
Greg
Most of everything these days is pure marketing wank. This being said I wonder about the following:
With the Flexvolt stuff does it enable Dewalt to more easily add the mains voltage capability to tools (if they design it to run on two 60v batteries to begin with) vs Milwaukee (and others) adding it to the their 18v tools and keeping it in the same package size. I know depending on your motor choice you could basically have a system that runs off both dc and ac voltages (given the appropriate circuitry to step up or down the voltages etc) but I haven’t gotten into much of that yet with what I do.
jec6613
Not significantly. You still are running a DC only tool, so you take AC mains into a rectifier to get you DC. (this is what the Flexvolt mains adapter does). You need a transformer to step the M18 tools to 18/36 volts, while with Dewalt they safely run on the straight 110V (so you’re getting direct mains voltage – a touch higher than the pack provides), but that’s not actually a massive expense in the grand scheme of these tools. You lose some efficiency and add a lot of bulk, but cost won’t change significantly.
And we know that the DeWalt uses only the rectifier because if it had a transformer, it would be 240V compatible – and it’s not, it’s 120V mains only.
Big Adam
“pure marketing wank”
This.
Joe
Ya, no….sorry..all the math and this is the same output crap I hear is from guys that don’t use framing tools. Nothing, let me say it again..Nothing comes close to the power of a Flexvolt circ saw 575 and even further for the 577 rear handle….Nothing…
Not close, not in power, not in runtime…it’s Not the same…the Milwaukee circ with any battery Can Not even rip an lvl, as in it is unable to…yet the 575 and 577 go through it like butter…
The 10” mitre from Milwaukee bogs down on dense wood , yet the Flexvolt doesn’t…period….
The Flexvolt line of tools ( except the sawzall) is unmatched,period…
It’s Fact…not Hype..Not marketing…..you really have to actually Use the tools to know what your talking about…….
PatrickD
Thats funny, I ripped down 14″ LVLs for a week to pack in 14″ beams and the regular Fuel 7-1/4″ did fine.
Cut a ton of oak trim and hickory flooring on my 10″ miter saw without issues too. 2x12s for deck, 4x4s for planter beds, etc. It handles it all like a dream.
Maybe time to quit being a fanboy. I have M18 9.0 and Dewalt 60v max and they are both awesome, competitive and very similar platforms.
JayD
Ya, No. Arrogance in the air.. and man does it stink a bit. Listening, let me say it again.. Listening to people rant about what they think they know… gives us all a headache. We’ve all used our share of tools and have our opinions. Most peeps here reading about this are avid DIYers at the very least… who have used their fair share of tools. I’ve used both the Flexvolt and Milwaukee 10” Miter and they both had moments of bogging down with thicker cuts of denser wood. Both tool lines are awesome and have slight advantages and disadvantages. You like yella, fella. We get it.
Eric
Did you try out the new Milwaukee saw today? I never said that one was better than the other, just the the battery packs are providing the same amount of power. It’s all about how well the manufacturer uses that power. And it sure sounds like Milwaukee has just come out with a much more powerful saw, we’ll have to wait and see how it does head to head against Dewalts current saws.
jec6613
It matters because the 60V is easier to design and service than the 20V because of the lower amps, and theoretically more efficient, all else being equal. Now, it’s rarely equal, but SBD made a strategic decision to make the battery pack complex and the tool simpler, while Milwaukee is doing the opposite. There isn’t a, “Right,” answer here, but I do prefer the DeWalt approach over Milwaukee’s. That said, if I was invested in red instead of yellow, I’d still be just as happy with my tools.
Tim
This. Dewalt made their play on utilizing the capabilities of larger battery cells and higher draw tools using higher voltages and designing to that. I have The flexvolt circular, miter, and compressor, and they’re all fantastic. The downside is no forwards compatibility from older batteries to flexvolt tools. But still a fantastic platform.
Milwaukee is making their play on utilizing these staying at the same voltage. The downside for them was probably more design cost to achieve what they did, but the gain is compatibility for any M18 battery on any M18 tool it looks like (though I don’t want to try running the table saw on a 1.5 compact…).
Pros and cons to each, but both are bringing us the benefits of the larger battery cells and their greater current delivery attributes. Both flexvolt and these new M18 high output seem to surpass a 15A outlet in terms of available power. Excited to see how both systems continue to play out in the next few years.
D
“90amps at 18v or 30 amps at 60v”.
How about 90amps at 60V?
Flexvolt has the potential to achieve this, Milwaukee does not and NEVER will.
Essentially Flexvolt could adopt all of Milwaukees HO tech (bigger wires, better conductors etc) and simply run 60V through it. The benefits of both.
Milwaukee will jump to higher voltage, they just didn’t at NPS18 because it’s likely too soon and not ready yet. It will probably be in the form of X2 and will creep its way in via a table saw or shop vac.
firefly
Lol, up to a point it really doesn’t matter. What matter is can Milwaukee design a table saw around the 18v platform with reasonable performance. Look like they did. That’s all it matter. Because another company could come out with a 120v platform, will that make them better?
Stuart
FlexVolt does NOT have the potential to achieve this.
The 2.0Ah cells in the 6.0Ah FlexVolt battery are likely rated at continuous current draw of 25A. Exceptionally good cooling might push that a little higher.
I can believe that the 3.0Ah cells in the M18 6.0Ah XC HO packs, or the 4.0Ah cells in the M18 12.0Ah HD HO packs are rated at 30A continuous. The cells in the FlexVolt 9.0Ah and 12.0Ah packs would be similarly rated.
Max power out of a FlexVolt 12.0Ah battery pack will likely be the same as the max power output of an M18 12.0Ah pack.
Theoretically, you should see the same practical limits.
With the same cells, 3.6V x 4.0Ah with say 30A continuous rating x cell count.
With FlexVolt, the cell count is 15 cells in series. With M18 HD HO, it’s 3 parallel rows of 5 cells in series.
In practice, 54V x 3.0Ah cells at 30A peak continuous draw is easier to achieve than 18V x 3.0Ah cells at 30A peak x 3 in parallel.
But with careful engineering and design, there are no roadblocks that say you cannot achieve the same wattage with high current instead of high voltage, only obstacles.
Lower the resistance enough, and you lower heat losses and other thermal considerations.
Milwaukee definitely has plans for “what comes next.” Once their new tools reach the next power ceiling, they will look to a higher voltage solution.
Even if Dewalt adopts some of Milwaukee’s optimizations, they will be limited to what the battery cells can deliver. And at the end of the day, you still cannot use a 20V Max battery pack in a FlexVolt tool.
Dewalt FlexVolt vs. Milwaukee M18 High Demand, Which is Better?
At the time, I gave the advantage to Dewalt. Now, it’s a near-even match, but if pressed, I would give Milwaukee the edge.
D
Engineering and design definitely have limitations: costs and what the consumer expects to pay in the end.
Lowering resistance is expensive and adds weight. Milwaukee tools are already notoriously heavy. Thicker copper wiring and extra wiring in motors could be detrimental to ergonomics. Although it might balance out some tools. Plus, you can only lower resistance to a certain point, they will be severely limited by this, and they also face the same battery output limitations of Flexvolt. Future batteries might have more output, and that could exceed what their already huge wiring and special alloys can handle. They’ll have to increase the wire thickness even more, and find an even better conductor to take advantage of it. Gold perhaps? To consider this a better approach than simply using higher voltage is strange. It won’t be cheap.
They’re going to hit a ceiling with 18V sooner than Hitachi, Ridgid/AEG, Ryobi, Dewalt, Makita and Metabo, who all have chosen ways to achieve 36V and above. That’s where the industry is moving.
As you mentioned, they’ll eventually jump to a higher voltage. That is an admission that 18V probably isn’t the best approach. If it was, they would stick with it. It seems they’re just filling gaps until they have their higher voltage solution developed. They were really caught off guard by Flexvolt.
I’d be interested to see the marketing machine in action if it was the other way around (Milwaukee invented Flexvolt). Not to mention what the bloggers would be saying. It’s like Milwaukee is paying them all.
Stuart
They lowered resistance and allowed for higher current in multiple ways.
One way was in motor design and production.
Lots of little optimizations, and not just a bump up in wire thickness.
I cannot share too many specifics just yet.
John S
Interesting that table saw has (it appears) OneKey capabilities. I wonder what customizations and settings thats going to offer.
Doresoom
They only mentioned tool lockout and location tracking capabilities for One-Key on the table saw. It’s possible they could add different blade speeds for multiple materials in the future, but they made no mention of it at NPS.
Tim
The big things I’ve seen so far, for those not following all the coverage out there (highly recommend looking on instagram!)
M18 fuel table saw. 8.25 blade, no corded option, 24.5” capacity. One key. $549 rumored price as a kit.
M18 fuel 16” chainsaw. 399 as a 12AH kit.
M18 Fuel gen 2 7.25” circular saw. Finally dust collection here in the states.
M18 fuel 9” grinder
M18 gen 3 fuel impact driver and drills. Impact is super short. Drills are shorter and higher powered.
M18 fuel super sawzall. Orbital action and a light.
M18 fuel 1” impact wrench
M18 fuel jigsaws, d handle and barrel grip. Fuel.
M18 fuel canister backpack / 3-in-1 vacuum. No cfm spec I’ve seen yet.
M18 gen 2 brushless impact (non-fuel)
M12 fuel impact wrenches revamp, including 1/2” on the M12 platform.
M12 rocket tower light. Dual power, 1400 lumens, just under 6’ tall extended, $149.
M12 fuel 3” cut off tool
Packout dolly (prototype)
Packout half-height organizers in both half and full width
New high leverage linesman pliers
Extra bold chalk reels in 100’ and 150’
New redstick multi-mode digital level
New Rechargeable 550lm Rover (possibly replacing/updating the current usb charged rover? Seems to have a better magnet)
Adam
From the pic I saw, the light had an articulating head with a magnet. The pocket rover that is currently out (2112-21), is more like a stick light that would more easily fit into a pocket. I have a feeling it is more an addition to the lineup. Rarely do they discontinue products so soon, though I’m not against improvements. Only tool that comes to mind that has had such a short life is the Gen 1 Fuel OPE blower.
Tim
You’re probably right, I also just saw a pic of an articulating head flashlight for the same line, so I’m guessing they’re to augment the current flashlight, rover, and headlamp, probably with a lot of the features people wanted out of those first lights. But definitely still a place for the other lights alongside these. Hope to see more tools on the usb platform, maybe revamp the M4 screwdriver to work on the usb cells…
Mike K
I think I’m most excited about is the new Pocket Rover. That little thing gets used more than any light I own. Everyone gets all stuck up on the big tools, that’s great they all have more power then 99% of us need. I’d love to see the USB/M4 line expand and get some love. I might buy some of their meters and test tools if they ran on that instead of an M12 battery that is as big as the tool. The level is pretty damn nice.
Chris
Do you or anybody have anymore info on the 1” impact wrench?
JC
FINALLY A FUEL JIGSAW!!!!!!!!!!!!. IVE BEEN ASKING FOR THIS FOR 5 YEARS NOW AND ITS A REALITY. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU MILWAUKEE. CONSIDER IT BOUGHT ALREADY!!!!!!
K2
Not one, but two!
Evadman
That M18 table saw looks like a near copy of my dewalt table saw, just in red. I’m not sure how I feel about that at the end of the day. Definitely that competition is a good though, more of that please. Why was the milwalkee announced as the worlds first cordless table saw though? Does the dewalt DCS7485 in my garage not exist or something? maybe milwalkee meant “worlds first cordless 18v* table saw”?
The 1 inch impact looks like it would fit one of my needs and replace my mac AWD099 1 inch impact. I don’t like firing up my compressor just to take off a few bolts a day. If the Milwaukee can put out at least 1700 ft/lbs it would probably work. the dewalt DCF899 I have isn’t strong enough (I think that one is 1200 ft/bs?)
The long handle jig saw looks sweet, that looks much more comfortable than a top handle jigsaw My DCS331 from dewalt is decent, but the blower needs more strength, and the M12 doesn’t have one (which means no M12 jigsaw for me)
I’m really interested in new M12 tools. The cutoff tool sounds quite interesting as a metal worker. I’m still waiting for my M12 soldering iron to be shipped so I can play with it.
I want that backpack vacuum. Give. Now.
Nathan
Come on Big Red release a cordless router in some form!!
John804
I’m waiting, perhaps pointlessly, to choose between Milwaukee and Dewalt based on which one is first to bring out a cordless router.
Corey
Makitas is pretty great.
John804
I’ve read about them, but I’m not really interested in Makita, and I really don’t want to buy into more than one higher power battery system. I may still get some M12 tools because of the size and the fact that my daughters can use them, but once I think of 18v+, it’ll be one system and done.
Corey
You edited out what I was referencing not caring about- that being the x2.
OLDominionDIYer
Yet earlier you said this:
“Corey says
May 3, 2018 at 10:36 pm
Have you used subcompacts, or their cordless router? While I don’t personally care for them…”
If you’re invested into the system it’s probably a sensible purchase but I doubt anyone would buy into any system for just one tool.
Corey
Above comment was meant for this lol, either way, I was referring to the x2, which you edited out for some reason. I own subcompacts, love em to death. Used em underground all day today alongside my DeWalt 20v’s and flexvolt recip?
CaveSAR
“We’re going to need a bigger battery pack!”
Larger battery capacity will be nice when I am using the Sawzall with a pruning blade. I am looking forward to see how well the M18 chainsaw performs. The chainsaw is now listed under M18 OPE – http://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Outdoor-Power-Equipment
I have the Husqvarna 36V cordless chainsaw. I am getting ready to try the Ryobi 40V cordless chainsaw.
Two issues I found with the M18 string trimmer:
a. No reverse for cleaning stems that get wrapped. Or to throw trimmings away instead of toward.
b. I found in 80 F, 25 C, plus temps the sting trimmer overheats and needs to cool down after about 20 or 25 minutes.
Adam
I haven’t seen any mention of One-key models of the Super Sawzall or other new tools. Is it just assumed they will have 2 models of each? Not sure how it would help a circular saw, but would like the trackability built into all their tools.
Stuart
The table saw is One-Key.
I don’t thi k any of the other new tools are, will double check tonight.
B
So they release a M12 Fuel cut off tool, but still no new M18 Fuel OMT or variant. One can argue that both cutoff tools and OMTs serve similar functions, but I would take M18 over M12. Oh well, more waiting I guess.
Yay for the M18 jigsaw!
Mike
50% more power horse shit, remember when they came out with the 9amp battery 33% more power we found out that was lie, they weren’t comparing it to a 5amp battery but a 1.5 amp battery. I’d wait for dewalt to come out with new flexvolt stuff 60v is far superior to 18/20 v in every way
Adam
I don’t recall seeing that anywhere. Would you mind pointing us at your source for that information?
Also, ProToolReviews testing (https://www.protoolreviews.com/tools/power/cordless/batteries-chargers/milwaukee-9-ah-batteries/17128/) found that the 9.0AH batteries were within 5% of where they ‘should’ be, compared to Milwaukee’s published numbers vs competing products.
HolyGrail
You were misinformed.
PatrickD
Stuart, are “Mike” and “Joe” from the same IP?
Andrew
The 9.0 absolutely gives a lot more power. The circular saw is a different tool with it. But as others have mentioned, it’s still not in the class of the DeWalt rear handle.
JC
Curious to see if the 12.0 battery will add a little extra juice to the 10″ sliding miter saw.
Hank
Generally not impressed. Overall last year’s event seemed more impressive.
But honestly not a lot of tools that aren’t already offered by competitors. Table saw is an example. Missed the ball not making it corded / cordless. Still waiting for DeWalt to do that, but they could have jumped ahead big time if they did. Just an example.
Last year had the dual bevel miter saw (7 (1/4) that m12 stapler, soldering iron, air snake, etc etc. Very innovative. Seems to me like they’re trying to play catch up in the carpentry department. Totally fine but you need to really jump ahead of the competition. The new circ saw is lame Makita or DeWalt makes better saws anyhow. Do they make a fuel multi tool yet?
Nathan
So any mention to the idea of running any of these tools off the other m18 battery. Is there something that’s going to know if the current draw capability will let the tool run correctly.
I notice the one key thing on a number of them so I guess that’s their method – the HO batteries will squirt a code to to tool saying hey pull 100 amps off me. (whatever the value)
tablesaw looks interesting – I sort of like that they like dewalt agreed to a smaller blade for the singular battery. I don’t see a stand for it however – I assume there is one.
interesting to see what the impact driver does – and equally interested in the bigger impact wrench and if Dewalt follows.
cordless barrel grip jig saw – yes please. I’m going to need to hold one in my hand
PatrickD
Of course in the last month I added a Dewalt 60V chainsaw and 3x 9.0 batteries to my otherwise Milwaukee-only collection.
I’m VERY pleased with the saw. I wonder if the Milwaukee will do just as well on one of the 9.0s? If so, it’s probably time to return the Dewalt and wait for the Milwaukee 🙁
Chris
It will run but can’t see it running at full power or for very long…I see a lot of these new tools needing the new batteries to be able to run right
Jason
Here’s the new M18 drill. Hopefully the chuck is as amazing as they claim.
https://milwaukeetool.com/Products/2804-20
Travis
I hope the new chuck, 42-66-1006, fits the outgoing hammer drill.
Corey
They don’t even make the chucks lol unless they switched back from Jacobson to rohm (like DeWalt has for some time) then at best they’re catching up.
OLDominionDIYer
Rohm Chucks are very problematic, tons of complaints I hope Milwaukee doesn’t go down that road – steer clear of those things yikes!
michaelhammer
An 8 1/4” table saw? What am I supposed to do carry two table saws? When companies come out with stuff like this I feel like they are missing the point. I already have a corded 10 inch jobsite saw that can’t keep up with the workload. It doesn’t matter which brand of jobsite saw you choose, they are all easy to bog down. I’m going to shell out $500 to do what, cut balsa wood?
I am disappointed with Millwalkee’s latest breakthrough. It seems to me that tools should be getting smaller, lighter, faster, and stronger. Bigger batteries is the opposite of what we need. Why not just strap a car battery to everything? Wouldn’t that be swell? 60 V that’s actually 54V. 20v that’s actually 18V. 12V that’s actually 10.8V. Does no one else get irritated with this stuff? Am I sweating the small stuff? I just feel so insulted. I suppose I’m getting sidetracked. My point is, that bigger batteries is not special. I don’t care what they tout the batteries capabilities, bigger is worse.
Joe
I don’t agree….the Flexvolt tablesaw with a 9ah/3ah is used everyday framing houses and ripping all our exterior trim, …” bodyguard” ..”azek” “ oak” pressure treated lumber” it will bog down ripping “ipe” …..never a problem with it…and up to 1 1/2” stock is fine….not sure what your ripping that needs a 10” blade
Andrew
Not many framers use a table saw.
nailbender
I agree, andrew is right. Never seen a framing crew use a table saw. When i do i know its not an actual framing crew. And last week i had to rip down some ipe so battery power tools dont compare to corded in anyway dont trust them, never will.
PatrickD
They are not just bigger, they put out more current at once. I guess if no existing job site saw satisfies you, their first few cordless ones won’t either. Most professional contractors seem to have no problem utilizing the corded ones for what they’re meant to do.
Andrew
Why another blade right circ saw Milwaukee? What about the West coast?
skfarmer
all of the hype and this what you get??????
pffttttt……happy with what i have…………
HolyGrail
Yes, because some, don’t have what you have, so for them the hype is real.
Matt
No framing nailer? 🙁
My guess on the rest was pretty close tho. Interested in seeing the G3 drills and saw. Tablesaw would be sweet, but my wife would put me thru it.
Travis
Some People are saying the new circular saw can run on the old Batteries. I’m assuming that also means the Sawzall can as well. My question is if the tablesaw can run on the old batteries, just with limited run times.
Stuart
All of the new tools can be run on current batteries.
Travis
Fantastic! I don’t mind a reduced rent times. I just want the latest and greatest tool so that when I do you have to buy new batteries Everything is optimized. I definitely don’t need new chargers and batteries, so buying he says bare tools is perfect.
Dave
Is the trade off power & runtime or just runtime?
Stuart
I think a little bit of both.
A battery pushed to the limit will run hotter, which might shorten runtime a little bit. Push a non-HO battery too far and it can trigger a temp shutdown. But that’s the case on tools that benefit greatly from the HD battery too.
bob
Stuart is right. My DeWalt 7-1/4 runs on 1.5Ah packs. Of course the run time is down a lot, but the power is also down a noticeable amount. Theoretically, there are cells available that will run with no power drop, but the run time on lower Ah packs will always be shorter.
D
If a tool is designed to use 18V to beat a 60V from a competitor, it’s highly unlikely the old 18650 battery will provide the same amp draw and performance to keep up. It’s misleading to say they’re fully compatible and both Milwaukee and tool reviewers (not referring to you Stuart) will probably never mention this in the same sentence, if at all. I wish they would be more honest.
I’d be interested to see a comparison. I think the internet will be flooded with “these new batteries VS Flexvolt”, rather than “these new batteries VS the old batteries” to test the fully compatible claim.
If the new tools with the old batteries perform like the old tools with the old batteries, then that’s actually quite an advantage over the Flexvolt approach. Personally I’d hate knowing the tool could do better however.
firefly
So it look like I was wrong, it look like the new Milwaukee tool are also compatible with the old battery. I read some of the comments and I thought that was a fact because I didn’t think Milwaukee could pull it off.
Anyway if that is the case then I think Milwaukee does hold an edge in this case when it come to FlexVolt. Even if it the tool run at reduced performance or reduced run time. It’s a smaller battery so reduced run time is expected, though it will be interesting if they also throttle the performance in trade off for the run time. That’s a given and it have nothing to do with whether they are compatible or not.
As far as “beating” I honestly don’t see a need for it. That’s just part of marketing from both company. I hope to see real world review that mentioned little touches here and there that make a real different. As far as performance as long as the tool give out reasonable performance for it given class I say that’s a win.
Stuart
Performance is NOT throttled by the tools, but the batteries know their limits and won’t go beyond power levels that they can deliver.
firefly
Ah so if I understand it correctly there is a current cap on the battery. So there will be reduced performance whenever the tool need to pull more current than what the battery can deliver? If so that make sense.
Thanks Stuart for the clarification.
Stuart
Current and temp. But the takeaway is that they’re battery limits, not tool-imposed power throttling.
So if you’re doing light cuts that aren’t taxing the battery, then you should see comparable performance and proportional runtime. Heavier work, and you might see an application speed difference. Much heavier work, and you might start seeing temperature-related stops on the lesser battery packs.
Paul Shibata
Wondering if you guys could comment on (or ask the question at the conference) about the long-term strategy for their impact tools. Specifically the incorporation of Hydraulic-Surge technology. This of course is prompted by the new Gen 3 impact driver release which does not feature surge. Having used surge I must say that it is an impressive feature (better performance and very quiet).
Lastly comments from Milwaukee regarding the incorporation of surge in their impact wrenches would be interesting. There is obviously a reason for their decisions, curious to hear about the limitations of surge and perhaps if the shortcomings will result in the abandonment of the technology.
In appreciation,
-Paul
Tim
I think impact wrenches specifically would be pretty hard to do using the hydraulic mechanisms like the surge. It has to do with how the surge works.
The surge impact driver is rated at significantly lower torque than a standard fuel impact driver (450in-lb vs 1800in-lb). Yet for regular and medium screws, it drives them faster than an impact driver. This is because the surge is delivering torque as a pulse as the hydraulic fluid expands and contracts, resulting in a larger time band where the screw has the torque to turn. A regular impact driver only generates high torque at the extremely small instants the hammer strikes an anvil, creating short bursts of torque, but much higher achievable torque than the surge can.
For an impact wrench, breaking/peak torque is everything. Plus, usually what you’re wrenching isn’t usually “tight” over the entire course of the screw/bolt. So you only need that torque right at the start of breaking a bolt loose, or at the end of tightening a bolt. In those cases, the higher torque even if only for an instant is what you need. For driving screws into wood, they need the torque all the way through driving the entire length of the screw. This is why the surge driver excels at that application, the longer high torque pulses let more screw get driven per “impact” than a standard impact driver.
Pro Tool Reviews includes the rigid stealth driver in their impact shootout, and demonstrates this. Basically the strength of the surge or any hydraulic driver is in making for faster (and quieter) screwdriving. Once you pass a torque requirement threshold though (like a larger lag bolt), the hydraulic loses its time gains, and then quickly drops out of being able to drive the screw at all. Going to even higher torque bolts like impact wrenches get used for, and you wind up hitting that problem even more often and more extremely, so traditional hammer and anvil impacts are the only wrenching option.
Paul
Thanks Tim, awesome summation. I think I remember reading the Pro Tool Review.
As you nicely described, surge makes practical sense for many of us using impact drivers. I was just surprised to see Milwaukee not include the technology in their latest offering. I suspect that even though surge performs as advertised the marketing department at Milwaukee may have counselled the designers to focus on conventional technology. The average buyer loves metrics where bigger numbers must equate to superior performance. More ft-lbs makes it easier to choose red over yellow. Subsequently the inability to effectively measure hydraulic technology and convert those numbers into standard torque units may result in the abandonment of a great technology.
Again thank you very much for taking the time to better explain Surge and how it pertains to different applications.
In appreciation,
-Paul
Tim
I don’t think at all it’ll be abandoned. The surge is already a fairly short tool physically, and is a bit newer than the fuel “regular” impact. I think Milwaukee has an opportunity to take some of their work on shrinking the form factor of the traditional impact while increasing power (see the M12 fuel gen 2), and applied that to the M18 impact, and the impact wrenches.
The surge being a whole different technology base would be a different upgrade, maybe it is a better pump that can make more torque, reducing the size, whatever. And there may be a new surge driver in a few years, but I personally don’t feel like they snubbed the surge at all by not updating it this year. It isn’t long in the tooth yet, and they don’t really need to update it to keep it competitive at what it excels at, which is screwdriving. I really think the impact driver was just a case of we did all this improvement to traditional impact mechanisms for these new wrenches and such, so might as well apply it to the M18 impact too, even more given that they are updating the M18 fuel drills as well.
Tim
I’d add on that even the surge and standard impact driver are almost two semi-separate markets, the same way an impact driver and an impact wrench are semi-separate markets. The surge is low-med screwdriving, the regular impact driver is med-high screwdriving and (in a pinch) very low (comparatively) wrenching, and impact wrenches are low-med-high wrenching. Somebody who installs giant lag bolts all day would be better off with a regular impact over the surge, whereas somebody driving deck screws would be better off with the surge. Good reason to keep both around and update each in their time.
firefly
Very well said Tim.
Travis
Did you get a chance to use the Jig Saws?
Andrew
Hey, friends. Andrew here finally recovering from the whirlwind of my first NPS. Few things that stood out for me on the table saw — and as the owner of a FlexVolt:
1) Cannot stress this enough but Milwaukee “fixed the switch.” If you’ve used the DeWalt, you’ll know exactly what I mean. That was the first thing I noticed.
2) Double miter slots compared to the single slot on the DeWalt. Sleds and jigs make any table saw — even a small portable — much more versatile.
3) It takes a dado stack. Can’t remember the exact specs but I’ll dig through my notes this week and verify.
None of these are likely big deals for hard core table saw users. But for weekend warriors and DIYers like myself, especially those already invested in the platform, the ~550 price becomes more palatable. Sure, could buy a nice cabinet saw for that money. But if space – and power – are limited (as is the case for me) its a fairly versatile tool.
Just my quick $0.02. Thanks to Stuart for tapping me in. Looking forward to helping add to the ToolGuyd community.
fred
Its all relative. My definition of a nice cabinet saw is a “Hammer K3” – the small one (31 x 31) sells for around $5000. If I had to replace my 70’s vintage sliding table Unisaw – the Hammer would be on my short list – but as you say you need the room for it and a cabinet saw is not exactly portable (although we’d put a Unisaw in a box truck and bring it out to a jobsite when warranted)
Andrew
You’re right, Fred. It certainly is all relative. And to that note, I probably used the wrong terminology — and I do apologize for that. I was thinking more along the lines of a lower-end, non-portable saw and there’s probably a specific term for it that’s evading me right now while I try to focus on the Brewers and Pirates! haha. I guess, my point is … there are just enough features on this saw that, at it’s current price point, I’d consider it to be a very good investment for somebody in a similar position to me.
fred
It used to be that table saws came in what might be thought of as distinct categories. The bigger stationary machines – usually called cabinet saws – came with enclosed cabinets (hence the name) – larger enclosed induction motors , belt-driven 10 inch or larger diameter blade, cast iron tables with table mounted trunions, long spindles to accommodate dado stacks. This all added to stability, accuracy of cut and decent dust collection abilities. Motor HP – often 3HP or more – some running on 110V – but more often on 208-220V in home shops – or 3phase 440V in commercial shops.
Then there were so called contractor saws – somewhat more portable open frame machines – induction motor hung out – belt driving a blade – a bit less stable – sometimes smaller cast iron table top – less dust collection.
Then some manufacturers introduced what they called hybrid saws – to fit in between.
Finally there is what many call jobsite table saws. Whether corded or cordless – they are meant to be portable – carried out to a jobsite in the back of a small truck. That’s the category that this new Milwaukee saw is meant to replace with a cordless option. Most of the corded saws use a universal motor that drives a 10 inch blade directly (no belt). The motors are typically much less powerful than the cabinet saws – sized so as to be able to run on a 15A 110V circuit. Some jobsite have long enough spindles to accommodate a dado stack – but these usually can benefit from a smaller (than 10 inch) dado stack (8 or even 6 inch).
Many folks with space constraints – yet wanting to get into woodworking – do seem to buy one of the jobsite saws – particularly if they have the ability to handle a dado stack. I have a Bosch 4100DG that sits in may garage and/or travels with me to one of the kid’s houses – and supplements the old Unisaw in my basement shop.
With Dewalt and Milwaukee now offering cordless jobsite saws – there are options for their use in situations where corded saws would be inconvenient. But, the new cordless advantages still apparently come with some downsides. Tool/battery cost, runtime and power issues (hence the 8.5 inch blade on this Milwaukee) need to be traded off against the cordless advantages.
firefly
That Hammer cabinet saw is soo nice. The sliding feature is really interesting. What are the advantage of a sliding table saw vs a traditional table saw?
fred
We had a big Shop Fox sliding table saw in the cabinet shop. Instead of using a miter gauge , cross cut sled or other jigs to help achieve 90 degree or mitered cross cuts – you used the table. A good sliding table has little or no play/wobble and lets you achieve repeatable results. The bigger sliding table saws help you handle larger sheet goods – replacing a vertical panel saw. It is in essence a saw that’s designed to saw plywood and other panels. Our saw also had a separate motor and dedicated small scoring blade that we used for veneered plywood. We could also use the Shop Fox for gang cutting multiple panels at once.
Because of the sliding table – you can learn to work faster – and some say safer in producing panels for cabinets. The safer part comes in because you often set up the cuts with the material fixed on the table – use the table to slide the material past the blade – thus keeping tour hands well away from the blade. Using the sliding table also puts out of line with the blade. But you know the adage that you can make something fool proof – but not damn-fool proof.
For ripping – we used a dedicated Oliver straight line rip saw with a power feeder. But with a sliding table saw you can use an absolutely square panel of 3/4 or thicker plywood clamped down to the cross cut fence to align the stock you want to rip. Of course the stock to be ripped has to have at least one good edge. There are also folks who make aftermarket parallel fences for sliders – but I think that the Lamb one costs something like $500 for the Hammer saw
firefly
Thanks fred!
Bob
No thanks. No new tools until they get smart and make all batteries compatible. The battery platform is more important than the tool, and they still don’t get it.
What if a cool new Acme car or pickup came out, and you just loved it. But,,, it ran only on 50% methanol that you had to get from Acme? Not getting in any more battery traps. If DeWalt 20v max won’t work on it, they can keep it.
Tim E.
For Milwaukee, all the batteries are compatible… I wouldn’t necessarily use a 1.5Ah compact on a high draw tool like the table saw or circular, but it is possible. I think the more realistic use case was the 5Ah batts on the new tools, and a place tested that (coptool I believe), and found it works about as one might expect for “5Ah” vs “12Ah high output”. There were trade offs of course, but it is possible. Likewise, the new batteries work on existing tools.