Festool is one of the most polarizing tool brands on the market today, with most users loving or hating them.
Let’s talk about it, although the discussion sections for every post about Festool tools or products ends up in similar territory.
Before we do that, here’s a minor update. Ohio Power Tool is having a flash sale on Festool tools and accessories. It’s more of an “everything must go” type of sale, as OPT is no longer selling Festool products.
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We’ve also noticed discounts on a varied selection of other Festool tools at other retailers. A retailer reached out to explain that certain tools, SKUs, and configurations are being discounted because they’ve been discontinued.
Basically, Festool’s price-fixed policies haven’t changed.
Generally speaking, ALL Festool tool dealers in the USA can be expected to offer the same prices. There have been a couple of exceptions to this, but it tends to be a hard rule, and it’s one we’ve heard is fiercely enforced.
Festool tools are pricey, and as I understand it, dealers aren’t allowed to offer discounts. They’re also excluded from site-wide discounts.
I think that it’s the high pricing that makes Festool such a polarizing brand.
Over at Amazon, the Festool 18V cordless impact driver kit is $385. WHY? I honestly couldn’t tell you; I tested one and it was just okay.
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Their AC-powered dust extractors are FANTASTIC. I bought one a long time ago, and tested 2 other models since then. “But I can get 10 shop vacuums for the same price.”
True, but a shop vacuum doesn’t offer equivalent features or performance.
Festool is known for some of their proprietary tools, such as the Domino joinery tool, but it’s not just that.
Festool’s better tools address very specific user “pain points.” Usually, if you don’t feel that same pain point, you’re not going to see the value in what would otherwise appear to be a considerably more expensive tool.
Some Festool users are pretentious, treating the high-priced tools as status symbols. Others self-justify their own purchases to the point of pontification. This all adds to the polarizing nature of the brand.
Users tend to love Festool. Those who don’t feel the same points tend to see the brand as outrageously priced. There’s a middle ground, but most people take one side or the other.
Festool also takes a systematic approach to their tools, with most products supported by a range of also-expensive accessories and add-ons.
When I bought a Makita XGT cordless router, it took me an inordinate amount of time to find the right SKU for the dust collector attachment. I finally found it, and then it took time to find a place that sells it. When the tool arrived, I found it already came with a dust shroud, something I didn’t see mentioned or pictured on any of the product pages.
Many Festool tools prominently feature dust collection attachments, and their system accessories are easily identified and sourced.
Are you sanding flat and narrow surfaces and want to ensure crisp edges? You can switch to a hard sanding pad. Want more give? Switch to a softer pad.
They extend nearly every power tool product, and they make it easy to buy them. And because Festool doesn’t discount, you know what you’re going to pay.
Not every Festool tool is a winner. I can recommend some but not others. Their Kapex miter saws are lauded in some spaces, but I’ve heard enough bad reviews to steer clear. A few years ago I considered maybe getting one for the dust collection, and contractors at a media event steered me away.
But I suppose it’s all about pain points.
While a lot of their new cordless tools don’t look to address application pain points, maybe Festool 18V users want a system-compatible impact driver or reciprocating saw.
Festool seems to have changed a lot in recent years, with respect to tool development and USA marketing, and they have all but lost my support as both a tool reviewer and end user.
It’s frustrating that they discontinued their vacuum clamp system, shortly after I purchased a set, raising doubt about replacement parts, but it’s it grand that you can now buy Festool-rebranded Bluetooth ear buds?
Their cordless table saw can be crammed into an oversized Systainer tool box, but lacks SawStop technology, despite SawStop being part of the same company. Festool’s SawStop-equipped table saws are only available in Europe.
Their cordless product range is fragmented and messy, and I’m about done buying corded tools.
I still find some of their tools interesting and potentially beneficial, but other brands have been addressing a lot of the same pain points.
I don’t see Festool innovating at the same pace anymore. Instead, I see a lot of hype and hyperbole.
Have they changed, or is this a matter of perception? That’s what happens – everyone becomes either an ardent supporter or critic.
I was enthusiastic about all of my purchases, each time believing that a new Festool tool would transform my project experiences. In some cases they did do that, but there are now newer, better, and less expensive competing options.
It seems that a majority of Festool tool users are individuals – either pros or demanding hobbyists – who are spending their own money.
Festool tools are about eliminating pain points and elevating your woodworking, or at least that’s my perception, but maybe it also comes down to excitement.
If I’m spending 2.5X to 5X the price on a tool, I want something to show for it. Otherwise, they’re luxury tools instead of premium tools, where you’re spending a lot more just for the Festool brand name.
Critics will argue that Festool is already a luxury and status symbol brand. Fans will insist there’s no substitute.
I think that Festool makes premium tools but has also been losing a lot of their distinctions. On top of that, it seems they have been increasingly leaning towards luxury brand-type hype and influencer marketing strategies.
All of this makes Festool a very atypical and complicated tool brand. Conversations have always been somewhat polarized, and it seems that tool users and critics will always have emotionally-charged views and arguments.
MFC
I have never heard anything bad about main Festool products, except for their price. Their foray into cordless has me rolling my eyes though. $400 for an oscillating saw? $300 for a drill?
Overpriced is an understatement in comparison to their competition.
However, they still have tools that don’t have a lot of competition, at least within corded offerings. I don’t build tables or chairs, just cabinets, and I’ve never seen the need for a Festool product. However, I would happily use one if I ever got the chance.
eddiesky
Their expensive cordless systainer tablesaw has problems per HERE.
https://14cyiuhvcgv.com/festools-cordless-table-saw-problems/%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E
Personally, only ONE product I would like, is festool HEPA vacs. I don’t mind manually turning on for non-festool device. But the current HEPA I own is a POS clumsy loud beast. And consumables aren’t cheap (bags are in 3 packs, and filter is $250 and cover for that is $100).
And annoyed at the price fixing by all authorized Festool resellers and never a sale. Only thing I might get is free s/h on one.
John E
What vac are you currently using, if you don’t mind me asking?
Koko The Talking Ape
You might look at Fein vacs. They’re quiet, effective and a lot cheaper than Festool, though still pricey compared to the usual shop vac. But they go on sale sometimes. I bought my Turbo I for $180 when it usually goes for about $300.
JohnBCS
Fein vacs don’t come with HEPA filters ($100+) unless you7 get the HEPA variants, which are in line with festool’s pricing, or anti static hoses. I know because I bought a turbo I for my CNC and had to upgrade both the filter and hose. I paid the same price for my turbo I, but after adding the HEPA filter and anti static hose, the price was close to a CT15. I do love how compact the turbo I is though. I use mine with a dust deputy, so the bag capacity isn’t an issue.
Also, bag capacity is about half of the tank capacity, whereas the festool vacs list both capacities, and there’s not a huge difference. For example, CT 26: 26 liter tank, 24 liter bag.
Karlen
I have a Fein vacume and would agree. It has served me very well but I do have plans for an upgrade. I use a dust deputy also, but in cases that I don’t, especially vacuuming drywall dust, I have experienced the festool Midi 1 and there’s really no comparison. Even with the bag the Fein clogs up and airflow is diminished with the need to open it up and knock the dust off the inside bag, and while it is much better than a shop vac it still isn’t perfect hepa and not anti static. The Midi has a bag knock lever and amazing filtration with great anti static properties
Cam
There is a Bluetooth switch that straps to the cord for non festool cordless tools.
Stuart
It attaches around the end of the hose, your wrist or similar. It’s as elegant a solution for cordless tools as possible without getting into proprietary transmitter modules, Bluetooth batteries, and similar very costly methods.
BRETT Mangiarelli
I’m a carpenter/ propmaker with over 47 years of experience some of my coworkers refer to me as a master carpenter (me I’m not so sure I deserve that title)
Still-if you really believe that the tool makes the craftsman go ahead and waste your money on festool
I absolutely will not
Paying a big bill does not buy you any skill
Kale
There no doubt about you being a master carpenter for 47 years, but festool will allow me to get the same job done at 2 to 3 times the speed easily with equal or better quality. I’ve never once had to go to my house to not see it.
Gw
Getting good dust extractor has nothing to do except with your hearing and lungs. After 40 years it’s time. I need to cut on a 3rd floor and not going to want outside.peace
jeffrey rook
Too true I have just retired with 55 years working as a joiner/shopfitter and paying Festool prices is ridiculous. I remember years ago the ‘Fine Woodworking ‘ magazine tested mid size routers and Festool came last in most categories including noise , vibration , shaft running true and ease of adjustment . This Festool was over twice the price of the others
Rich Miller
I bought my Kapex saw about 9 years ago. I’m just an old guy that works in the wood shop about 1 day a week on average. My Kapex quit on me about 2 months ago. Long story short I sent it in for repair and it cost $420. That was after arguing with them down from $670. Rediculous to pay 2-3 times as much for the saw compared to any other saw and then have it quit. Not a fan!!!
mikedt
Polarizing in that we’d love to have them but can’t afford them.
Rog
Festool fanaticism is rivaled only by Milwaukee, but at least Milwaukee is still relative affordable (for now).
Jronman
On the basic tools, Milwaukee is on the upper end of what most would consider “affordable”. Once you start going into more specialty tools, the prices are so ridiculous that they make even Festool look good. A one ton hoist for 40x the price in some cases of the competition. I was curious what a regular manual hoost would cost and I could get one for around $100. The m18 hoist is $4000. Even Milwaukees corded host is almost $3000.
Stuart
In my opinion, specialty tools cost more because it takes longer for brands to recoup the R&D costs, and also because compromises are rarely acceptable. Higher costs + lower volume = high prices.
If you’re working in a commercial space, there is far less tolerance for failure than if you’re working on a home project.
Would you prefer for Milwaukee to cut corners to make their cordless chain hoist more affordable?
Pick 2 out of 3 – quality, reliability, affordability.
Matt
Specialty tools arent that out of line for comparable products. There aren’t a whole lot of battery operated vacuum pumps for example. NAVAC makes 2 CFM and 4 CFM pumps that use modified proprietary Makita batteries at $500 and $740 respectively. The M18 5 CFM pump is $765 and doesn’t use proprietary batteries. With that said, it isnt difficult to modify a M18 to Makita battery adapter to use on the NAVAC, its what I do, although HO batteries wont allow them pump to sit flat.
Peter Fox
If you think some specialty tool is over priced you are obviously not part of the target market for it.
Anyone familiar with industrial or event rigging knows that powered hoists are not cheap. Just because a low end manual hoist can be had for $100 or less has no bearing on what professional/industrial grade equipment costs. They are not even remotely in the same class even thought they both can do basically the same thing. The line of thinking comparing the two is like complaining that a mini excavator is over priced because you could dig the same hole with a $15 shovel.
From a home gamer or hobbyist stand point specialty professional/industrial grade equipment is always going to seem expensive, but from a business standpoint its often about speed and efficiency, at the end of the day its just the cost of doing business.
Karlen
Exactly! I am not too involved in rigging usually, but in other aspects like mics, there’s a huge difference between a no name kareoke microphone and a DPA or Sheops microphone at many many times the price. They both technically do the same thing, but they are a whole different level.
Same can be said for festool. Sure, some hobbyists have them, but they really are specialty pro tools. And to be clear, not industrial or production line tools, but professional tools.
Koko The Talking Ape
A few guys, including Stuart, justify the high cost with “good” reasons: recouping R and D costs on lower volume sales, or increased capabilities, or whatnot
But another possible reason why their costs are high is that businesses just aren’t as price-sensitive as consumers. If a specialty tool costs a lot, even between brands, then a business has some options about what to do about that cost, including passing it on to customers. Consumers have no such options.
It’s a little disingenuous to attribute high tools prices JUST to “good” reasons like high costs for the manuf, low volume, higher functionality or some other “good” reason. There are almost certainly other other reasons operating as well.
In the woodworking forums I visit, people often ask what they should charge for x or y product. Some people suggest they take their material costs, time spent, amortized tool costs, etc. add a reasonable profit, and charge that. That’s a “fair” price. Other people say no, you should charge whatever the market charges. If it’s higher than your “fair” price, then you should raise your price. Is there a “good” reason for that higher price? No. But that’s how a “rational” market works.
Stuart
Individuals, such as self-employed carpenters, and smaller family-owned companies can still be very price-sensitive.
Independent craftspeople and service providers, across nearly every industry and online platform, ask questions about product and service valuation.
Festool charges what they do because they can, they need to, or most likely there’s some balance that takes into account higher costs and profit considerations. It’s impossible to know without looking at their accounting books.
There’s also a balance above which tool users will seek competing options even if Festool best addresses their common needs or pain points.
Also, I am in no means trying to justify Festool prices – that’s something everyone needs to consider for themselves. I’m just looking at potential explanations.
EH
When I first started doing high-end kitchen and bath remodels, the guys who bought the tools justified the cost of buying Festool as relieving (and recouping the losses of) two pain points: dust collection and tool transport.
The superiority of the Festool dust collection saved a lot on labor and kept clients happy. The Systainer system kept tools organized, made finding tools more efficient, and kept tools in in better condition for longer.
All of this justified the cost of Festool over the long run.
A decade or so later and other brands have closed the gap on these two pain points. Festool may still have the best track saw and the best dust collection, but other brands are gaining. When it comes to tool organization, Festool is being outpaced.
My sense is that when the domino joiner patent runs out, I won’t see new Festools on site. It seems like Festool feels the same way and is looking to cash in/out on brand legacy and identity.
Kyle
Maybe I missed it, but it seems the only example of a pain point you provided was ease of sourcing and understanding accessory offerings vs competitors. That doesn’t really strike me as a point in favor of their enormously expensive tool offerings. My time definitely has value, but it’s not so valuable that I would object to having to shop around for a particular accessory. The tool itself needs to be doing something better than the competition. Even if it’s only 5% better, that last 5% is going to cost as much as getting the first 95%, and some people are fine with that.
Stuart
There are all kinds of pain points.
My pain point was dust spill and wanting to be able to break down plywood without a table saw.
I later added a sander and different abrasives for varied applications.
Can you change the sanding pad on other sanders? Not usually. Why? Maybe because there’s no place for such accessories on store shelves, lower volume would result in higher prices, or a combination of reasons.
Festool is going to have those options.
Certain circular saws are sold with dust extractor chutes overseas, but no such accessories in the USA. A few years ago I asked why that is, and was told it’s because Americans tend to prefer lower costs and aren’t interested in dust collection.
Festool tools are built around dust collection and a systematic approach.
Festool wants you to buy and use their track saw or router, MFT table, and dust extractor, and everything kind of ties together in a natural-seeming way, by design. You don’t really see that elsewhere.
potato
Picked up a refurb CT15 and I see now why Festool owners love their products. There’s such a wide gulf between looking at all the ways this thing can be expanded upon with parts that are easily found on the festool website, vs how annoying it is to find either replacement or compatible parts for other competitors tools on their own websites.
Also I dont think Americans can really ever appreciate how Festool respects compact and efficiently designed products. Their dust extractors are neat little cubical shapes that maximize the storage capacity for the footprint they take up. You can also stack their boxes on top of them very easily, everything packs away inside the integrated storage(except for the smallest one which I have, but even then there’s a decently designed cord to keep the hose bundled up).
I dont think I could ever be convinced of their cordless offerings(unless they came out with a cordless sawstop tablesaw) mainly due to their price, but I definitely see why they have such a strong fanbase now vs prior when I didnt own any of their stuff.
fred
I grew up in an era where MSRP was what you paid at retail for many tools. The homeowner who went to the local hardware store – might get 5 to 10% off MSRP on what was on the new stuff on shelf. If you wanted pro-level tools – you could order from a catalog and pay list price – but at least shipping (to the store) was included. Even businesses might not be large enough to command deeper discounts from industrial suppliers or wholesalers. Consumerism may have started to rise in the 1920’s – but I think it was television advertising in the post-WWII era that saw it really accelerate. Discount stores and home centers – plus Sears stores catering to the suburbs started appearing. So did the DIY movement. Then came Home Depot followed by the internet – and we now generally rail at the idea of paying MSRP – except perhaps for luxury goods, But, even the twice-yearly Paris sales (les soldes) have some exceptions. The MSRP thing can be gamed – by both the manufacturer and the seller alike. One can wonder if the typical MSRP in any way reflects the true cost to the retailer or the manufacturer. Is the MSRP set arbitrarily high so that steep discounts can be taken and still represent a more than adequate profit margin? Thinking about that question – leads to the question about whether Milwaukee, Dewalt etc. can or do accept lower profit margins than Festool – based on their volume of sales.
Meanwhile the two Festool items (TS55 saw and Domino XL) that I use I like as much or more than some of my other newer tools from brands like Milwaukee and Makita. Over the years I’ve bought tools from many brands – liking how some have performed while disliking others. I usually reserve emotion of love for family members and great experiences not inanimate objects like tools. Similarly, while I have encountered many bad tools – I generally think of hate as emotion applied to really evil things. Sure, I would “like” it better if Festool chose to sell their products for less – but I don’t hate them their pricing policies any more that I hate Hermès for selling high-priced accessories that I might chose to buy as gifts.
Saulac
I will be happy with a middle ground of fixed MSRPs and one or two sales a year.
Farkleberry
Festool(s) seem to regularly go on sale in Europe, so the logical conclusion is that Festool hates America ; )
Why is Ohio Power Tool phasing out Festool?
Do Festool dealers sign some ironclad agreement to sell at MSRP?
If they dare to have a grubby sale do they face liquidated damages vs just having dealership rescinded?
Stuart
A lot of Festool tools are much cheaper in Europe. A few years ago I ordered Systainer Sortainer tool boxes from Amazon UK or DE, and they cost less even with priority international shipping.
I guess they sell far fewer tools in the USA but still have to pay for sales, marketing, and support. However, a lot of European tools cost more here.
Yes, all signs point to Festool dealers signing a strict agreement. ALL brands have various terms and conditions for authorized dealers to follow.
I don’t know what happens if/when a dealer breaches their agreement with Festool.
Festool seems to have a very different arrangement with their dealers, but it wouldn’t be too out of the ordinary.
Goodie
I think this is a fairly typical European company action. I lived in Germany for five years. Europeans (particularly Germans) find our litigious nature in the US to be confusing and expensive. They often (probably unfairly) increase prices due to perceived business risk due to American liability concerns.
They also generally view the US as a very expensive place to live. They’re, on aggregate, right. My overall quality of life in Germany was very high. Housing is affordable, groceries were more affordable. Eating out is inexpensive. I could go to the doctor (without insurance) for 20 Euro. Their cost of doing business here is higher, and they pass some that cost on to the customer.
Germans (and I think this extends to German corporations) are also not particularly enamored of using credit. Try traveling without cash there; it’s pretty difficult. Lots of vendors refuse to pay the credit card processing fees.
Couple these two things, and I think Festool (and a lot of other European companies) factor in the cost of doing business here (both real and imagined) and self-finance it through a higher prices.
That said, I think this largely applies to the Festool part of TTS more than other Brands. NAREX is still great value. And I will continue to assert that my SawStop is a decent value (same price) when compared to a PowerMatic (which offers similar build quality and features without a brake).
Harrison
“What’s the deal with Festool?”
Is this the setup to a Jerry Seinfeld routine?
Stuart
Suggest a couple of better-sounding titles.
Blocky
What is a Festool and how does it affect me?
Festool in gestalt: intention, perception, engineering and market positioning
What’s inside the box – systainable workflow and better living through Festool
Who let the Festools out
Fess up. Coming clean with Festool.
Festool – a best tool for the rest of us?
Corey
“Waiter, what’s a Domino doing in my soup?”
“Sir, it looks like the backstroke.”
“Take my Festool Tracksaw…please.”
“So when you give the first baseman a Sanding Kit, who gets it?”
“Every piece of it.”
Wait, I think I misunderstood the assignment….
Blocky
Lol
Peter
Haha, good one!
Hugo
I rate Festool’s corded tools, and am happy to pay that sort of premium (or, luxury) price for a well made tool that should last me and my hobbyist light use at least 10 years if not decades. Any cordless tool is invariably going to have crap batteries by then and it may or may not be possible to find compatible spares; thus, I see cordless tools as unfortunately more disposable.
I started with a TS55, which I chose based on the thicker, more rigid blade and proper mechanical riving knife compared to competing models. I’m disappointed to see the latest versions of their track saws moving to skinnier blades and no riving knives. That current model seems to offer nothing over the competition. Hopefully blades to the old spec will continue to be available for a long time.
I do share your concern that Festool may be having some challenges. From the outside, it almost looks like the classic private equity squeeze, but I hope not.
Jonathan k hankins
I’ve got a lot of festool from way back. Their ergonomics and dust collection was unmatched. However cost is stupid. Over recent years I’ve migrated to millwaukee. Their battery tech innovating. Although my t15+3 driver batteries still going strong
Champs
The truck brands—spiritually in the case of Festool—will do their thing, consumers will do their own. The alignment of those two things is all that really matters, because let’s be real: the amortization of a mediocre impact driver is probably a rounding error in the fuel budget.
Saulac
I like the term “luxury tool” and will start using it.
Michael F
Festool is definitely a luxury tool. You really don’t need them to get any particular job done. With that said, wow can they be nice and just plain fun to use. I feel more like a surgeon than a handyman when I use my CXS 12 to install cabinets, curtains, shelves, etc. Is that because I know I spent $349 for it and that makes it feel better in my hands somehow? Maybe! The placebo effect is real. I don’t think it’s all rationalizing and justifying, though.
Every single install task I’ve done since buying the CXS 12 is perfectly level. Is that because I’m going slow to enjoy a tool I spent so much money on? Is it because the expensive Festool drill bits have a much sharper point so the hole gets drilled exactly where I intended it to be? Honestly, I really couldn’t care less because at the end of the day I get results. I can say that I’ve specifically tried to slow down using my non-Festool drill bits and they consistently skip before biting so my holes are slightly off where I intended. Could I solve that with a quick center punch? Sure! But when I use my Festool bits I don’t have to.
My official opinion is that if you can spend the money and you’re willing to use the entire system as it was intended (for example, using Festool bits with the Festool CXS 12 instead of other bits with an adapter), there are no better tools for the job. There are other similarly great tools, but better? I haven’t seen them.
Dave H.
I don’t often hear people talk about festool sanders in these discussions. The ets 150 with festool brand or other top tier sand paper gives not just the highest quality result, but that pain point elimination you mentioned, is the vibration (lots of other awesome features I won’t mention) I’ve never felt a sander so effortless, balanced and vibrationless. That numb buzzing feeling in your hand that comes from sanders is entirely eliminated. I used another sander yesterday and was quickly reminded just how perfect the ets150 really is. There are tools I don’t mind going to other brands for. A lot of them actually, but I will never buy another brands sander.
Funkpod
I saw their lowest price sander is $250 on Amazon. Ets 125 req-plus. Tempted by it. I hate my Ryobi and Ridgid. Such a chore to use them, always feel like they’re out of control. Especially sanding edges. Wondering if that least expensive Festool sander is a lot better than the Makita, etc.
Farkleberry
I love the innovation Festool has achieved in machine woodworking, especially outside of large production cabinet shops:
HANDHELD TOOLS BROUGHT TO WORK
+European tradition+
-Compact, lightweight, take up little storage space in crowded lands with very expensive real estate.
-Portable
-Often safer
-Less expensive (except Festool of course ; )
Festool innovations in this category:
-Precision
-Repeatability
-Speed
-Dust collection
BRINGING WORK TO MASSIVE STATIONARY TOOLS
+North American tradition+ (I know Euro is now source for top quality big tools – RIP Delta, Rockwell, Oliver, etc.)
-Power and speed
-High accuracy
-Huge space requirements and often cost
-Traditionally dangerous – table saw, shaper, radial arm saw
This historic innovation has understandably won them many loyal fans.
Some are heavy users that understand the strengths and weaknesses of their tools, and feel they are still a great value and/or utterly unique, despite their higher cost.
Some are clueless snobs who have found something to believe in and/or project an image.
The cordless line is a terrible value in such a wonderfully innovative and competitive market. While the tools are (for now?) made (assembled?) in Europe, the batteries are Chinese. Country of origin can be a valid purchasing factor, though.
DOMINO
Awesome and has no competitors offering comparable strength, speed, accuracy and ease of use. $2800 for both sizes is a lot of money for 2 handheld routers that wiggle their bits.
-Biscuit joiners and doweling machines miss out on strength, but offer speedy and precise alignment.
-Various router jigs offer comparable accuracy with potential for greater strength and flexibility, but nowhere near the speed or ease of use. Fine if you’re a hobbyist.
-Can’t wait for Domino patent to expire. I think they’ve decided to wring out as much as they can before expiration vs lower the price to entice the tempted (me).
TRACK SAW
Sooo many competitors, why go Festool beyond COO, and then why not go Mafell?
There are so many great accessories that have obviously bested the Festool offerings in accuracy, speed, ease of use and sometimes price – things like rail squares and repeat stops, parallel guides, MFT fences
Woodpeckers, TSO, Benchdogs UK, Chinese knockoffs and shop built jigs fit every application, budget and COO concern.
MFT
Another brilliant idea whose development has been eclipsed by the world beyond Festool. Of course work bench dogs and stops go back centuries. Square hole metal fabrication tables and cabinet door glue up tables with grids of round holes in steel plate for pneumatic clamps are quite old as well.
MFT is still a great compromise for a portable precision work table, but there are better commercial options for every application and price point.
DIY options with aluminum extrusions, plywood torsion boxes, knocked together 2x frames holding up MDF, Baltic Birch, $50 a sheet radiata ply or phenolic can be cut and drilled by your local CNC, or shipped to your door. You could also let your imagination run wild at the local maker space’s CNC or get a Parf guide system.
DUST COLLECTORS
A good shop vac with a fine filter works fine in most situations, or there are other less overpriced models. I did appreciate the comment about how compact the Festools are and stacking capacity.
SYSTAINER
Stacking on top of vacs is great for space efficiency. Stackkng aside, modular tool boxes themselves are not space efficient, especially with the cheesy festool blow molded trays relegating only one tool to each systainer. Great to keep your stuff organized and clean, but so much less space efficient than a bunch of tools stuffed in a pile or shelf of bags. Protection is much better though, especially for the very expensive, precise tools Festool sells. Systainers are fragile and far less protective than the modern competitors.
KAPEX
It’s a system. All these features are available elsewhere for a fraction of the cost, but they won’t be OEM. As a stand alone saw or using it with shop built extensions, etc. I don’t get the appeal.
No sliding/gliding miter saw is particularly rigid/accurate compared to a table saw sled, etc.
ROUTERS
I would love to hear in detail what’s so great about these routers vs Bosch, Dewalt (Elu), Makita, Milwaukee, Metabo HPT, etc., beyond COO. Ergos seem hit and miss, dust collection and track compatibility has largely caught up.
SANDERS
The Rotex was a great invention, but the geared Bosch is arguably better for half the cost. Previous comments about using a grinder for rough work seem doable. Dust collection is becoming more common on grinders and the concrete planer category name I just learned about seems like an alternative. Stationary or portable jointers, planers and belt sanders all trade greater speed and sometimes accuracy for larger size and worse dust collection. If you can afford a Rotex, you can afford a dedicated ROS/DA.
I haven’t used the interchangeable head sanders, but am curious how they compare to a 1/4 sheet sander and a multi tool with different pads?
The modern brushless DA sanders like ETS EC 150, etc. offer the speed, control, ergos and low vibration approaching pneumatic models, though still larger and heavier. These sanders seem to offer a lot over a typical corded $50 ROS but are they 10-15X better?
A 6″ has 50% sanding more area than a 5″, but they’re sometimes interchangeable.
The prices of the Festool and especially the Mirka seem to have jumped over the past few years.
-3M is almost $500 and has a poor reliability/durability record.
-Mirka is $750! and also has a checkered record.
-Festool is $575 (unless you can set your time machine to 2 days ago). The Festool has unique ergos with a front switch allowing shifting grip vs the others have a variable speed paddle. The durability/qc seems good.
-There are a few different Chinese models in rainbow colors and myriad unintelligible names. Their performance seems comparable to the previous 3 while their durability/qc seems comparable to 3M and Mirka. The prices on these are constantly dropping. The lower profile Maxxt is now $160, while the slightly taller designs are $115 on Ebay. Most seem to use the Festool M8 pad design vs the traditional 5/16″ pneumatic/3M/Mirka backing pad. Warranty varies from nothing to 1 year (manufacturer) up to 4 year through Amazon aftermarket.
Inventing, developing and manufacturing top quality costs money. Festool’s best/most unique products (Domino, track saw, Rotex, DC) were developed a long time ago and those costs are sunk/recouped at this point (EC sander might be exception). The handy little drill that has a more traditional reverse switch vs M12 aside, what cordless tech has Festool pioneered that would justify their high prices? AVE teardowns, systemic Kapex motor issues, etc. all seem to point to quality on par with other brands at best. These issues seem to be cost saving designs (bushings not bearings, etc.) The COO can make a difference but when IPhones, etc. are Chinese, is this political vs functional?
A previous comment stated that he thought the Festool EC was actually the best value for this limited choice category. Even at $575, that’s a credible position.
How does Festool feel about this?
Do they need to raise the price?
Does Louis Vuitton or Maserati want people to say their products are the best value?
Is (was) Festool a bleeding edge constant invention machine with no holds barred quality?
Is Festool a luxury lifestyle brand milking previous innovation by ridiculously marketing to a cult?
Will
I’ve been building things for 40 years professionally, my skills have improved over that time. I’ve hired plenty of carpenters with all ranges of tools one brand doesn’t make a better job, . The tools make a large difference but it always falls back to the person behind the tool. Once your dealing with top of line of any brands the step from different higher lines is not that steep. The difference in price is not worth or seen in the end product. But if you’re lacking confidence then maybe it’s worth it to buy the most expensive name. Unless you’re using shop tools like powermatic or something comparable that will make a difference.
Goodie
I’m the guy who claimed the Festool ETS125EC sander was a good value compared to alternatives (3M and Mirka). There’s a few other unique value propositions, such as changing pads (as Stewart mentioned), the custom abrasives with their dust collection (they are spendy, but do a good job with dust extraction), and the ability to change 5 inch (125mm) sander into a 6 (150mm) inch one with a pad change. I paid $425 for mine in 2021. It’s now $475. If you don’t want the low profile one, the higher profile ETS series can be had for $250. At the price and functionality, they are (in my opinion) a top value for premium sanders.
I really wish Festool gave the option to buy tools without systainer. That ETS 125 (non-EC) would be $125 and would be incredibly competitive. I would also buy a CXS-12 without it.
I have a lot of green tools (8), but several of them I got second-hand through my woodworking club. I generally paid 50% or less for many of them. There’s a few I will buy again, even at full price, when these break. I enjoy my Festool tools and I’ve built a lot of furniture, cabinets, and frames (wife’s a painter) with them. I’ve even used them to make a little money making built-ins for friends. I don’t consider them poor value.
I also have plenty of DeWalt, Bosch, and Metabo HPT. Most of them are really good. I consider both Metabo HPT and Bosch to provide a LOT of tool for the money. I generally like DeWalt, but I have a barrel grip jigsaw with a flaky switch that I repeatedly have to flick to get the tool to start. It’s super annoying, and it makes me wish I hadn’t paid $210 for it, even with the bundled XR battery. Flaky tools suck.
For pros, there are still some exceptional tools that allow Festool to essentially “name their price”. The PLANEX sanders for painters and drywall guys is one. ROTEX sanders are another (although Bosch seems to be a great alternative). The DOMINO is the other tool that truly changes how you work.
Their dust extractors are a bit of their own category. They aren’t cheap, but they’re so good (and the alternatives aren’t priced THAT much lower) that I still see lots of pros buy them. Until you use one, and see how it manages to pack the filter bag completely before losing any air handling power, it’s hard to understand why they are so well regarded. The wheels and stacking mean it just sort of obediently follows you as you work, like a friendly little R2D2.
My other favorite vac (non-HEPA) is a Ridgid. Great value and performance for the $.
Finally, I’d like to expound a bit on the “luxury” concept. I hate the sort of stupid elitism that a lot of buyers attach to their ability to buy Louis Vuiton, luxury cars, or “luxury tools”. I hate the importance people attach to brand names and their own view of their status or image. However, it’s their money (or my money in the case of my tools) to spend. Some people love driving a luxurious, high-performing, or highly capable and luxurious (King Ranch F series comes to mind) vehicle. Others get that from their clothes or accessories. That’s their choice. I think if each of us introspects a little, we’ll find any area where we make some “luxurious” choices in life that aren’t fully rational.
Personally, I’m a tool guy. I’m a mix of “bang for buck” and “would I really like working with this tool and will pay extra” sort of tool guy. I value doing work with tools that I feel work well for me (whether it’s the Ridgid vac, my DOMINO, or my SawStop table saw). The work I’ve done with them makes me feel they are a good value, and I think I’ve made things that I could never have bought elsewhere, gave me joy, and even allowed me to make a little money.
In that sense, all of my tools have been invaluable.
Nathan
Think they are about to do a major refresh or ?
Is opt just selling off their stock to do so?
Stuart
OPT is no longer selling Festool tools. The flash sale is/was a clear-out of whatever they had on-hand.
fred
That makes sense.
Rick
I worked at a Woodcraft for 14 years. Kapex dust collection is outstanding, but you must use the 36mm hose.
WastedP
I have a Rotex and a brushed Festool sander, and they are both great products. I own a CT, and the interoperability with the sanders and tracksaws (I have a 75 and a 55) is fantastic, it saves me time and money on the job. I bought into T-Loc Systainers, and once the Sys3 revision came out, I switched all of my tools (Hand tools, Makita, whatever) to Sys3’s and it saves me time on the job because I’m not digging around for stuff. I buy Festool stuff because it makes me money. Their sandpaper lasts twice as long as the box store stuff. My only complaint on consumables is that CT bags are ten bucks apiece.
I’m totally confused by Festool’s cordless offerings. If it made sense, or I thought it was truly better than the lower priced Makita version, I might be swayed, but it hasn’t happened yet.
I have sent tools in to Festool for repair, in and out of warranty, and their response is usually prompt and complete. Paid repairs were a bargain, essentially getting a recon tool for less than half price. That money has to get made up somewhere, and it’s probably that high entry price.
Farkleberry
Goodie,
I agree that the EC’s (exorbitant) price could easily be seen as a great value if you do a lot of sanding, especially if it earns you money or you have disposable income.
It is difficult to really quantify value for better sanders because:
-Sanding is very boring
-Sanding is time consuming even when things go well
-Rushed sanding wastes hours fixing (ask me how I know)
-Superior sanding and dust collection speeds the process, conserves consumables, produces better results and can have health benefits.
The price of Festool consumables is another thing that scares me away, but they have sold enough that a healthy aftermarket seems to have developed.
Many sanders allow different pads, and hook and loop interface pads are available in a large range of thickness and firmness.
Apparently all the YouTube celeb testers agree the 3M Cubitron mesh is the fastest, most economical and bestest. I’ve used Mirka Abranet and $20 HD promo Diablo packs and they’re great.
Are you using mesh or paper mostly? I really like the mesh for the dust collection and not getting glazed and gummed up. It doesn’t hold up on edges though.
If using mesh do you use an interface pad? The 3M and the Chinese models seem to develop a lot of vibration using an interface, while the Mirka has its counterweight drilled to add adjustment screws.
With interface pads $5 vs pads as low as $10, I’m inclined to skip the interface for the best speed and lowest vibration – good for the motor as well as hands. Festool’s pads are $50, not sure how long the hook and loop holds up to mesh without interface.
-Chinese knockoffs are apparently able to easily change between 5″ and 6″ pads.
-Mirka 6″ you can apparently change to 5″, but not vice versa.
-3M upper shroud is the only difference between 5″ and 6″. It’s interesting that this is the only one that seems to pull air straight up through the pad everywhere. Most of the others seem to have a bunch slots or holes running horizontally through the pad pulling air from the outside bottom holes to the inside top holes. A delaminated Festool knockoff pad on an Amazon review shows this clearly.
Unfortunately, Festool doesn’t sell a ($475) ETS EC 125/5, and the 5mm orbit and 6″ pad are two of the biggest things setting the EC apart from the $50 ROS.
I don’t really get the appeal of the regular (non EC) ETS. I wouldn’t be surprised if modern competitors offered similar speed/power, ergos, vibration and dust collection. I don’t think a cardboard boxed ETS would knock the retail Systainer price off, they probably only cost several dollars to make.
I’m with you on Festool naming their price on the Domino, but my hunch is they could have much higher sales, and thus higher profits with a price under $1000.
Skeptical on functional/value advantage of Rotex vs Bosch, Makita, Chinese knockoffs getting good reviews or grinders with shrouds.
I was not really familiar with CT 15 and its slightly lower performance, but smaller size and $419 price. Is this your R2D2 and can you compare its performance with some of the slightly larger, more powerful models like CT 36 and competitors?
Bosch has a decent looking dust extractor sub $500. There are a couple tool shootouts from a few years back that show the German Metabo as a good unit for $600+. The CT 36 did well, but costs a hefty premium.
I find it interesting that the Nilfisk Attix 33 is being licensed by so many: Milwaukee, Flex, Mirka and Makita, who had a better performing, but unreliable model. I have the Flex and they’re great.
Planex I’m surprised to hear is name your price, as drywall crews around here often still seem to hand sand and sweep up once at the end, can you imagine? I’m guessing many of these buyers are doing limited remodelling trying to keep the dust from migrating to occupied living areas.
Bosch has a drywall sander for $400 and there are a ton of models from every Chinese company and HF Bauer from $150. The (German) Flex Giraffe is still half price at $600 and is great.
Here’s where I thank Stuart for running this site, Epic Flex HEPA Deals indeed. I had to look back at my receipt to find I paid $130 for my Flex VCE 44 and $180 for my Flex Giraffe from CPO in December 2019. All the accessories and consumables were similarly discounted. I don’t know if the new Chinese buyers of German Flex needed to pay off a loan, or CPO messed something up, but I’m not sure when I would’ve gone dust extractor vs shop vac.
Tough to know how much is too much dust. I personally know people sensitized to wood dust and with concurrent breathing and health problems. They liked their exotic hardwoods and sealed, air conditioned shops though. On the other hand, there are many millions of people living in areas with frequent dust storms free from silicosis. I’m amazed when I see people cutting concrete with (or without) a bandana mask, probably day after day… pretty sure many will pay a price.
I cringe when I think of my self, and see others vacuuming up fine dust with a coarse filter shop vac in closed spaces. All the visible stuff going in the bin while the fine, dangerous stuff goes in the lungs. A few to several hundred bucks for HEPA (much less for just a vacuum) seems like cheap insurance, even if it’s hard to pin down safe exposure limits.
Goodie
Farkleberry, these are my thoughts on the sanders:
1. I have the ETS125/3 EC – I thought it offered the best compromise between the 2mm stroke of the regular ETS125 and the more aggressive ETS 150/5 EC. I plan to get a ROTEX style sander for more aggressive sanding, as the form factor works well. I’ve used a friend’s ROTEX and liked it a lot; if I can get a used one through my woodworking club, that will be my choice. I may evaluate the Bosch, which gets good reviews. I like Bosch. I won’t buy the Chinese stuff; too many opportunities to buy twice, cry twice. I also like knowing that what I am going to buy is quality; I also don’t want to generate trash for a landfill unnecessarily.
2. The interface pad is a solid option, one that many of my friends use, but I haven’t done it. I often just buy the Festool consumables, as they are easily available and the dust extraction “just works”. I build this into the cost of projects I either keep or sell. I’ve seen the many YouTube influencer posts on sandpaper. I don’t think consumables costs matter that much when you consider the cost of all the other items, including the wood, the finish supplies, hardware, and time. It’s at max, part of a single percentage point. Makes sense to optimize that in mass production, it matters very little in custom work. That said, Cubitron is great stuff and I buy sheets for hand sanding. I also use quite a few Klingspor univeral disks, sandpaper sheets, and like them.
3. For the dust extractor, I have the CT Midi. It’s a great form factor. It has the integrated bluetooth. The larger ones are great in a shop, but the Midi is great for taking to a worksite. Mine does a bit of both.
4. The PLANEX surprised me too, but the number of beat up, 15+ year old white contractor vans (painters and drywall guys) that pull up and buy them at my local Rockler and Woodcraft stores amazes me. There’s not a lot of new construction near me, so most of these guys are doing remodeling. I live in the DC metro area, remodelers here can set high prices. The reason they buy PLANEX vice something else? It’s very easy to just show up at a retail shop and buy, unlike the others you mentioned. A quick google search tells me that I can’t buy a FLEX giraffe or Bosch anywhere near me. I think this is a huge element of success for Milwaukee (just roll into HD) and Festool (woodworking chains). When it breaks, you simply go to a retailer and buy one. For pros, these things are almost consumable, and when you need to buy one – you often need it same day for a job. I don’t have anything more than anecdotal information from the sales force that works in the local area, so take that for what it’s worth.
5. I built an air quality sensor for my shop. The amount of PM 1 and 2.5 particles generated in a shop can be surprisingly high. It’s very easy to get into EPA “unhealthy levels” quickly. I spent years in silty deserts in the middle east in a past life, it has an effect on your lung capacity.
Farkleberry
Thanks for the detailed responses, info, and analysis.
I’m gaining more understanding and respect for current Festool performance and competitiveness.
At least until the next 5 product introductions are from categories of luxury leisure culinary fashion and pets.
Or perhaps the 5 products are actually luxury leisure culinary fashion for pets.
Goodie
I don’t like the silly “fanshop” and “cult” stuff, either. I don’t buy any of those items. Wera also does some of this marketing as well, and I also like their tools. 😉
Adam
I have a Festool ETS sander and the small router, and their very good, I think the Festool dominos are very good and the new TS 60 track saw, some of their tools I would never buy the cordless table saw, I think it’s ridiculous money I’d rather have my Dewalt, the Kapex miter saw it’s a good saw but just too expensive, and I don’t like the handle and the swatch.
Hans
It’s important to know that tool prices in Europe for other brands (DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee,…) are much higher than in the US. We pay at least double what Americans are paying. Festool in Europe is still a premium/expensive brand, but the difference with other tools is much smaller.
Farkleberry
Would you mind briefly describing different brands’ market share and positioning in your region and/or Europe as a whole?
I think you’re saying Festool is more common but not as comparatively expensive, while Makita, Milwaukee, Dewalt, etc. are less common and more expensive than here.
What are the biggest sellers and who are the highest value brands?
Are there a bunch of regional retailer rebrands and Amazon, etc. at the bottom and Festool, Mafell, Metabo, red Flex, etc. at the top? How big is the middle and who matters most?
fred
Published numbers for Makita in 2023 show their revenues in Europe to be 348,994 million Yen – versus 119,064 million Yen for North America. TTI (Milwaukee, Ryobi and others) reported 2023 revenues of $10,513,310,000 for North America versus $2,093,341,000 for Europe.
fred
If I did the Yen to $ numbers correctly – Makita revenues in Europe are just about (1.05 x greater) than TTI – but the TTI numbers include other brands beyond Milwaukee. Makita revenues in Europe are 3 times their NA revenues – while TTI revenues in Europe are only 1/5th of their NA revenues.
John S
Great editorial. I have a select few Festool models still in use. The Kapex? I sold it and replaced with two great cordless options-the Milwaukee 7-1/4 and the Makita 40v 12”. And after playing with the festool cordless DE’s… no thanks. All of their cordless tech just seems way behind. Now that there are cordless options for dust extraction that approach corded performance, I was happy to pony up for the new AWS cordless extractor for a fully cordless Bluetooth set up. I still like my Rotex sanders, but if I now wanted the best that would be a mirka. I just don’t know what the value proposition is for festool outside of the Domino and the edge bander and maybe a couple others.
John Lacara
Festool was once THE innovative market maker, not just leader. No one had a track saw, a Domino or integrated dust collection. Anyone who used their track saw 15yrs ago, it was a revelation.
But…
They have been coasting on that, and the other companies have been simultaneously upping their game by imitation and innovation of their own.
Festool systems are supremely integrated in a way that the others still struggle to imitate but it will eventually happen cause Festool cannot hope to match Makita or Milwaukees R & D.
Besides their patented Market leading tools they were always consistently reliably above average in their other product lines. Best in class in everything? Nope. Unfortunately they price their other non-market leading tools as if they were champions. I don’t think that is sustainable tho.
Goodie
I don’t disagree entirely, but I think there’s still some very intresting things happening at TTS. Some of the more interesting innovations are happening outside the Festool brand and are rather in the sister TTS brands.
1. The Shaper Origin is very innovative. Great little company, founded in USA in 2012 making handheld CNC routers. Incredibly innovative, and was bought by TTS in 2018. Shaper has offices in Stuttgart, close to Festool’s longtime HQ in Wendlingen. Festool is very much engaged with ensuring the router components feels like a quality hand-held tool. This is certainly an enthusiast brand, as it has the annoying “subscription” business model.
2. NAREX really made their name in high quality, inexpensive chisels. Great company that offers quality Czech made stuff. I think TTS has been making changes to move them “up market” and introduce new tool lines. Their Richter chisels are very favorably compared to Lie-Nielsen and Veritas. They now have turning tools, screwdrivers, punches, mallets, etc.
3. Don’t count Festool entirely out. Their new SYS-AIR air filtration system plays to their strength of having clean air and jobsites. They have new Systainers that areoptimized for building cabinet racks and drawers in vans. I think them doing this is a welcome return to thinking about providing innovative products, rather than selling 18v Festool recip saws for $500.
WastedP
Shaper Origin is not a subscription item. All updates are free. One software upgrade is available for a fee, but the machine works great without it. They do charge an annual subscription (I think it’s $99) for their web-based design software, but you can use any software you want that produces standard SVGs.
I bought a NIB set of Narex chisels from a guy at a jobsite. I had no idea they were a Tooltechnic company until I read your post. They’re decent chisels, but I’m no connoisseur.
Goodie
Good to know on the subscription. I saw something with the $99 thing and it rankled me a bit. Thanks for clarifying. This is why I like Toolguyd!
I really like Narex. Cheap enough that I am not afraid to use them, but still quite nice.
Stuart
I have also seen a lot of folks unhappy about Shaper putting full Studio software features behind a $99/year subscription paywall.
There’s also been a lot of negativity around the $199 extension to unlock automated cutting passes.
I considered having ToolGuyd splurge on one. The paywall software aspect was a big negative, but there were others.
As for Narex being owned by Festool’s parent company, this is true, but it’s extremely unobvious.
Goodie
Thanks Stuart. I have an issue with buying a $3000 tool and then getting asked to pay to “unlock features” or pay for updated firmware. I can somewhat understand paying for design software.
Goodie
Especially if I have a choice of using other design software.
Stuart
Objectively speaking, it’s the norm when you get into industrial-level systems.
Subjectively, I see it as a profit-oriented consumer-unfriendly tactic.
Shaper has one main product with a very limited number of accessories. Feature-unlocking extensions and subscriptions help to ensure a separate and consistent revenue stream.
I don’t blame them, but it definitely played a part in pushing me away from considering the Origin system.
Mike S
Is it just me, or has the Ohio Power Tool website disappeared?
fred
Was up and running via my Chrome browser:
https://www.ohiopowertool.com/
Will
From the festool products I own, I’ve found that they’re mostly worth the money even if you can’t fully use the capability of the tool. I love my planex dry wall sander and I’ve generally found my sanders to be amazing. I own a track saw that I bought on a whim and it’s honestly not worth it. Is it cool though.
fred
The Porter Cable 7800 went through 5 iterations since it was the first of this type of power tool introduced about 40 years ago. Once it was off-patent lots of copies came to market. The Festool is likely in the top tier of what’s now on the market – but I’m not sure how it compares to the significantly lower-priced tools from Bosch, Dewalt, Makita etc. – and if Festool has done things to set it apart. I’d like to think that it integrates well with their dust extractors.
Goodie
I visited Rockler today and asked about the PLANEX. They’ve sold quite a few of them, usually with a Festool dust extractor. Never to hobbyists, always to contractors. Both the PLANEX and ROTEX seem to be popular with remodelers, particularly those who might be working around areas with lead based paint. Folks suit up in protective gear around when working around it, but keeping the sanding “at arms length” is often desired. In the case of working around lead, it’s probably good for health (and attendant liability) to have HEPA vacs and a brand that’s widely recognized for capturing dust.
Sherwin Williams stores also sell the PLANEX, sanders and ROTEX.
Peter
With Festool or other things like the cybertruck or back in the days the Kardashians people get so fired up about that I have a hard time to understand it.
If you do not like or it is not for you just move on and enjoy the day.
Instead people dig their heels deep in the pro or against camp like there is no tomorrow.
Kena
I think the comparison here is much like that of Apple against Samsung. Apple people pay a lot of money for a phone and get locked into the Apple “way of life”. You might be an Apple user and you will defend it all day long. But there are certain issues that Apple does, for instance, sending a video from one Apple phone to another is great. Great. But send a video from Apple to Android and it’s anything but nice. I believe what people like with apple is the integration, other hardware and software applications without having to think about other things. And they’re willing to die, defending it and spend more money than they would absolutely have to at some other vendor. I believe. Festool has done the same type of strategy. Their stuff for the most part plug and plays and together exceptionally well. 20 years ago. I wouldn’t say that I’m a festool lover because I couldn’t afford it then. In my retirement days my time is important to me and not having to hassle with that 5% as mentioned in this thread is important. I’ve tried other track saws bolted up to other vacuum systems and I must defend festool track saw hooked up to their vac as the best that there is in the industry. I have set my shop up so that I can hook up equipment directly to my vac with it mounted overhead and the time that I save every time I switch from one tool to the other is enormous. I could not get that with Makita or Milwaukee. The track saws power along with its integrated electronic controls is absolutely phenomenal. Cutting through 2 and 1/2 in thick slabs without it burning or stalling is an absolute lifesaver and timesaver. Say what you might about the price. They stay in business and they create other products. There are a lot of brands that control pricing. It has been challenged that price fixing is not allowed but it’s very difficult when you are a distributor or a retailer and you want to maintain your distribution license from that company. Retailers make good margin on these products and so they continue to sell them. And I do believe that their return has to be less than any other brand on the market. I have never had a festool fail on me so I don’t know what the rate of return is but I know I’ve had problems with other brands of tools failing on me. For instance, I had a Fuji hvlp that had 10 minutes on it that the turbo busted. It was apita to get it fixed
ITCD
They make fantastic tools for the most part, but I’m having a hangup about the forced pricing. Setting price floors isn’t really anything unique to Festool, several other companies also do that, but setting the price inordinately high and completely disallowing any sorts of sales pricing is literally what luxury brands like Chanel and Hermes do. Except in this case I imagine Festool isn’t buying back stuff that is nearing EOL like perfumes or is going out to style like purses.
It’s about preservation of brand image and the price tag on it is part of that image, forcing the pricing to be exactly that way deliberately puts them out of reach of some people and will tend to develop an air of elitism because of it. Just the same way as Creed was charging $250 for 30ml of Aventus a few years ago, wanting nearly $9 per ml, but would sell whole 1000ml decanters for just over $1/ml; they obviously could have easily afforded to slash the price of the 30ml considerably and still make money, but then that takes away from the wine-sniffing pinky-out feeling of exclusivity and being better because money, and it’s just a bit insulting.
Even Snap-on, the folks regularly called jewelry for mechanics or Automotive Gucci or whatever, lets their dealers charge the price they want from at a loss up to MSRP. It’s the business owner’s money to choose to collect or to leave on the table by offering a better deal, Snap-on (and Festool) already got their money. And in spite of allowing dealers to come off the high MSRP, they’re still seen as a very high quality brand. No reason to play Chanel style games.
Johnathan Collins
Been using their stuff for close to 20 years . As a cabinet /furniture / guitar maker .
I’m all makita for battery hand tools but the fess track saw , domino and a few orbitals and dust collection are essential equipment in my shop . I believe my current fess stuff is all a decade or more old (the domino is getting close to 20 !, most of the rest would be pushing 20 as well if I hadn’t been robbed a few times . ) and all have seen respectful but hard use constantly in that time .
Never a failure and they work as flawlessly now as they did when I bought them .
Ive got lots of pre ww2 woodworking stuff I’ve inherited over the years and will eventually pass on to my kids or grands . Of the modern power tool stuff I have I think probably only the fess and laguna will qualify (and survive long enough ) to go into the keep pile when I’m gone . – my planer , table saw and most other cabinet tools are antiques already and way better than anything around these days , saw stop or not . I’m 51 and have been woodworking for a living one way or another for 30 years . Still got all my digits .
I was well trained I spose , sometimes by fellas who did not have the luxury of all 10 phalanges …😏
The best advice I ever got from my favorite timber framing boss was ‘every time you run this tool imagine it cutting yr hand off , it wants to cut yr hand off , don’t let it ! Don’t be stupid and careless and it won’t . You run the tool not the other way around . ‘
Words to live (and keep playing guitar ) by .
They totally nailed the track see when they were new to the us market 20 years ago .
You get what you pay for for sure .
It is expensive but I pay more for hand planes and chisels sometimes and the track saw and domino see 10x the use or likely way more .
Totally worth it on the corded stuff . Especially sanding , cutting and mortising .
Johnny Maniscalco
I have a lot of Festool products. Being lower middle class, it took years to aquire them because of their price. I love them and they work exactly as advertised. I don’t understand their pricing. It isn’t like you are getting a lifetime warranty for that much money. You get 3 years. The price is the problem and not the tools.