I have been thinking of buying a new miter saw. Maybe cordless, maybe corded. All I know is that 1) I want good dust collection, and 2) I want a smallish footprint, and 3) it MUST have an LED shadow-based cut-line guidance system.
Shadow cut-line guidance system?
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Like on this Milwaukee saw.
Or this Dewalt.
With such a system, there are lights above or on both sides of the blade, throwing a shadow across the workpiece.
The shadow shows you exactly where the cut will be, and is perfectly sized to the kerf of the blade when the blade is lowered and placed in contact with the work during setup.
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I love this type of system for two reasons. First, you never need to calibrate or realign it, like you might have to do with a laser. Second, it works so well. It’s simple, but effective.
The Dewalt DWS780 was the second saw I had experienced LED shadow lighting on. The first? A Dewalt 10″ saw with retrofitted “XPS” lighting module, which seems to have been discontinued a few years ago.
But casually browsing retailers’ sites to re-familiarize myself with current miter saw options, I came across an older corded Milwaukee model.
This saw, model 6955-20, a 12″ dual bevel slider, dates back quite a few years – at least 10 years. There are a few reviews in 2008, and there’s an Amazon listing (which is what caught my attention in the first place) with a 2004 “date first available” time stamp.
I had been under the impression that this was a Dewalt technology that was adapted by other brands in recent years, most notably Milwaukee and Ridgid, as far as I’m aware.
Finding out that Milwaukee had something similar going back to pre-ToolGuyd days? Well, now I’m confused.
So, for those of you have been using miter saws with LED shadow-based cut-line guidance systems for far longer than I have, which brand came out with it first?
Update: Milwaukee equipped their miter saw with an LED worklight first, but Dewalt was first to use an LED light as a cut-line indicator.
Carpenter one
I actually think it was That Milwaukee saw, I remember when I first came out and I was going to purchase it but I went with the 12 inch Bosch instead just because it was a little bit lighter.
That song is extremely accurate but the dust collection shoot on it needed a retrofit piece to fit a standard shop vac all in all it’s a great saw ( my friend has it) But it’s definitely heavy and probably best left in a shop setting.
Jak
The 10 inch miter saw is better because there issues less deflection in the blade and I own the digital 12 inch Milwaukee miter saw and the 10 inch cordless Milwaukee miter saw both has it’s pros and cons but overall the 12 inch is the go to saw
Dcl
We had a Japanese market Hitatchi my dad bought in the late 90’s that had a light on it which both provided a work light and a shadow line. I’m not sure if the shadow line was intended or not, but it did have an odd, almost useless metal blade guard. I assume it was designed like that to allow the light to be used as a shadow line. I also assume it was never released here because of saftey/lawsuit concerns It was pretty dangerous since the whole front quarter of the blade was basically exposed.
OhioHead
No clue who was 1st, I remember 5 to 8 years ago the DW folks selling the above mentioned XPS kit and “now” a laser guide is “table stakes!”
Doresoom
I could have sworn DeWalt was first, but that corded Milwaukee has been around forever. Is it possible they did a rolling update without revving the model number? I know they’ve done it before – moving from plastic to metal collars on the original M18 Rocket light.
Stuart
That kind of feature seems to be more than a rolling update kind of thing, requiring new UL testing and what-not.
One of the reviews I saw and was able to date mentioned these as being incandescent lights, which would have likely required far more re-engineering than what they’d be able to potentially retrofit the saw with using today’s LED technology.
Plus, it’s mentioned in a 2008 review or two.
Farid
Charles M Butters US patent # US20050217445A1; 1940 – expired.
The listing shows the patent referenced by many others later on such as TTI and Black and Decker. https://patents.google.com/patent/US20050217445A1/en
Toolfreak
I wasn’t even aware the latest saw guidance system had ever moved on from lasers…
You’d think something like this would have made it’s way onto saws in the days before lasers, since it would have been possible to make a shadow line using something like incandescent automotive bulbs on either side of the blade.
I just stick with the tried-and-true method of lining it up before the cut and positioning the workpiece by actually pulling down the non-moving blade and making contact at the spot I want to cut at.
This has always worked better for me than any guidance system.
Jerry
If that is the case you would love a shadow line saw. All a shadow line is, is an extension of the blade that shows up on the piece to be cut without having to power the blade all the way down to the piece. Works best when you bring the blade down to about an inch above, leaving a darker line that exactly matches where the blade will go. A friend got a DeWalt with a shadow line and it takes notably less time to line up the cut than a saw without one. Not a big deal for a DIY project but if you were a carpenter it would be a real time saver over the years.
fred
We added a SawGear (TigerStop) digital system to one of our shop miter saws and it proved to be a big time saver. When I retired – we were thinking about buying one more for use on bigger jobsites – but the cost (about $3700 for the 8 ft. one to $5000 for the 16 footer) seemed (to me anyway) to be hard to justify for that application. I think that I’ve seen it on TOH jobsites couple to a Kapex – but they and Tom Silva may march to the beat of a different drummer.
http://www.hermance.com/Industrial/TigerStop-Positioning-Systems/SawGear-12ft-Automatic-Length-Measuring-System-1ft-overall
Mike
Black and Decker owns DeWalt….I would have to say BLK&Decker….I had a laser (stinks)…Just got new DeWalt slider,love it…..
Paul
I bought the DW715 when it went on sale a few years ago. I knew it had the option to add on the XPS laser and LED systems. However the one in the box what the new model that did not have the mounting options. This is also right after Dewalt started to offer saws with the LED included. I asked the store and they sold me the display model and put the new saw out because, “wow, our display should be the actual product” (I’ll take them humoring me). We pulled off all of the display stickers on my saw and put them on the new display saw. Every time I go to Lowe’s, I see that saw and see the one missing sticker that we forgot to move.
Story aside. I heard about the LED here first. Second, my theory as to why we did not see these before (patent not withstanding) is that LED technology was not ready for the task until about 6 years ago. They were not bright enough before then. As to why not use an incandescent? They are too big and still not bright enough to cast a shadow of that size (a reflector would skew the cut line). My 2 cents.
JD
Paul, fair comments and quite logical regarding light evolution
And I too had a funny Lowes story with using the demo shop vac hose…
Take care
Paul
Do tell?
Framer joe
You list dust collection first. Reviews on the Milwaukee cordless mitre
dust collection are horrible. DeWalt does a good job. With the kapex being the best.
Other then Milwaukee fans I’ve never seen any finish carpenter using a Milwaukee mitre saw . DeWalt is the most used , Hitachi or Bosch second…
I always assumed DeWalt invented the shadow light, probably because I’ve never seen Milwaukee mitre saws on a job
fred
In our neck of the woods, it was probably 90% Dewalt that you saw (still do) in use. We were outliers – first with our Makita sliders and then Bosch GCM12SD’s . Our roofing sub used Hitachi. I never saw a Milwaukee or Kapex (except on TOH) in use.
Garrick
My problem with mitre saws was always getting the cut lined up, so when lasers came out, I made sure to get one (Craftsman). I never liked it much. One day I realised that the light had burned out, and I was liking the saw better. So I left it at that. A few years later I was helping a friend refit his house, and he had just gone out and bought the first saw he came across, and it was the Dewalt 780 (he had too much money). I started tuning it up for him, and realised it was tuned already, then noticed the LED shadow. After about one cut, I immediately went and bought one for my self, and except that it was heavy, never looked for another mitre saw. He keeps his saw some place in his garage, but doesn’t know exactly where it’s buried. Mine is well used and always sitting ready.
ToolOfTheTrade
I’ve always lined the blade up with my mark also. I was also taught not to ever use a square to make a mark when using a miter saw. Every miter saw I’ve owned came with a guide laser which I never put batteries in or it always got smashed by something in my truck bed. Plus they ain’t worth a shit if you’re cutting outside on a sunny day. Never thought to use it though . I recently bought the Dewalt 20v miter saw and the shadow light comes on for 20 seconds every time you press the button just like their drills and stuff. It’s visible in the sunlight and it’s actually very useful.
John
Has anyone tried to retrofit their own diy system like this onto a saw? It seems like you’d just need a light on either side pointed at the bottom of the blade.
Mike
Dewalt was the first with the shadow they had a patent on it
Nathan
I wonder if milwaukee stopped making that model or changed the model because of reliability issues with the lights – being incandescent. and a few years later dewalt added them but used LED’s. Other than your posting the Dewalt is the first I’ve ever seen with it – and I notice a few are started to copy it which makes a bit of sense if they don’t have an actual patent or trademark on it.
second I’m thinking about making a retrofit. figure I get 2 LED’s and drill holes in the top of my current saws metal – non moving – shield, set them at a light angle downwards to the base. power with a battery of some flavor (like a 9v or something). But I also think I want to new saw anyway and if I do that I’m in the boat like stuart said. I want decent dust collection ability and shadow line out of the box.
Jim Felt
This is a great thread. Mostly because I’m kinda looking at a replacent for my 12” Dewalt compound miter saw. Great performance but lousy dust collection (or so I think) and certainly no shadow line ability.
So I’m waiting for Stuart’s conclusion post.
Rory
As a guy who has to repair these tools, id buy a Makita or DeWalt… I see too many issues come in with the MIlwaukee…
Dave M
The comments on the Milwaukee saw on Amazon say that the light on it is only for illumination and not for lining up the cut. I personally have the Dewalt with the shadow line and I love that feature. I do NOT like how deep it is though and the dust collection is barely useful even with a dust collector set up. I would honestly jump ship to a Bosch or Makita if they had the shadow line with the shallower depth. The Dewalt takes up WAY TOO much room in a small shop.
Stuart
The user manual says:
In the example images I see, it does show a cut line shadow. Perhaps the lighting wasn’t as effective as today’s LED emitters meant specifically for that purpose?
Dave M
That may be the case, but I was just looking at responses to a question posted on Amazon specifically about this feature. Either way…ALL quality miters should include this feature in my opinion.
Ken Emmett
The shadow line for a saw blade was patented in 1920, It is not a new concept. Obviously it was not LED. Patent long since expired. Ypu can look it up
Jim
So, is there an up fit for the Bosch GCM12SD axial glide saw?
Stuart
Not that I know of.
Michael Zurynski
My Ridgid 18v sliding miter I bought three years ago had a shadow cut line.
Terry Jones
in reference to shadow lines on tools, i don’t think any power tool manufacturer can claim it because I am a sheet metal worker and guillotines have had them for as long as I can remember, I am surprised it took Dewalt etc’ this long to catch on.
John Butters
My Grandfather was Charles M. Butters, US patent # US20050217445A1; 1940.
He shared his invention with the world, at no charge to those that chose to use it. He was a Shingle Sawyer and witnessed other sawyer’s injuries over many years. His sole purpose behind his invention was to protect blade operators from serious and sometimes debilitating injuries. His invention and patent were his gifts to the Shingle Industry, and later the world.
John Butters
Correction- Charles M. Butters patent US2307820A